Classic Trail Permits - Is it Fair and Financially Sustainable?

[dweese]

I may well be mistaken but I thought to ride anywhere other than your own property you needed to have it licenced and to have it licenced you needed to have liability insurance. Not positive but that was the impression I had. Yes you need it for the OFSC trails bit the other situations I thought you did. Personally I think anyone that runs a sled without having liability insurance is a complete fool. There is so much to lose should you have an accident. Yes the odds are in your favour of not having one but if you do you are screwed.

I only had my TNT 2 years, had it given to me as a box of parts sort of thing and a with a little work and no money I had it back up and running. I had an idea of getting a permit until I found out the price (this was pre-classic days, and I was newly divorced so I had no money) I figured I'd just run the bay across the street. I went to the MTO office dude there told me INS was not reqired to get a seld plate, but you need the plate no matter where you ride. Stuck to the ice and didn't get INS because my INS company said your not coved on ice unless your using an OPEN OFSC marked trail that crosses the ice.

This is what an OPP told me, if the body of water does not have a marked, OPEN, OFSC trail, its not their job to police the ice under the HTA (highway traffic act), they are not even alowed on the ice if there is no OPEN trail. They are only alowed on to unmarked ice if they need to get invovled in an issue that falls under other parts of the law. And yes they do patrol the water in the summer, but thats under the Marine Vessel Act or Canadian Shipping Act, which doesn't have anything to with a seld because they fall under the HTA.

So gray area on the ice, but watch for gray areas.

[02Sled]

I guess you are right about gray area... my liability insurance covers me whether on the ice or not. I am not ready to jeopardize my home and future by venturing out without liability insurance. Just a choice I make. Accidents happen on the water and ice every year in collisions. In case I somehow become one of those statistics although not likely I like the peace of mind of knowing I won't lose everything I have worked for. Way way back the province had Unsatisfied Judgement as an alternative to insurance for a car. Basically you payed virtually nothing to the province but it meant if you were in an accident and there was a settlement against you the province would pay but they would garnish your wages leaving just enough to survive in order to pay back the judgement. A friend of my dad lost everything. House family etc and found himself living in a basdement apt at 40 years old since he didn't have real insurance. He would be paying back until after his retirement.

[dweese]

Take a good look and double check you are covered on ice that is not an open trail. Both State Farm and now with TD have told me no trail, no coverage. And there is no extra to buy for no trail ice riding, from them.

[sledjunk]

Take a good look and double check you are covered on ice that is not an open trail. Both State Farm and now with TD have told me no trail, no coverage. And there is no extra to buy for no trail ice riding, from them.

After an earlier post, by 02Sled I believe, about a rider for ice, I contacted my insurer (TD) who said that I was covered on the ice without a rider. Go figure!

[Nutter]

I only had my TNT 2 years, had it given to me as a box of parts sort of thing and a with a little work and no money I had it back up and running. I had an idea of getting a permit until I found out the price (this was pre-classic days, and I was newly divorced so I had no money) I figured I'd just run the bay across the street. I went to the MTO office dude there told me INS was not reqired to get a seld plate, but you need the plate no matter where you ride. Stuck to the ice and didn't get INS because my INS company said your not coved on ice unless your using an OPEN OFSC marked trail that crosses the ice.

This is what an OPP told me, if the body of water does not have a marked, OPEN, OFSC trail, its not their job to police the ice under the HTA (highway traffic act), they are not even alowed on the ice if there is no OPEN trail. They are only alowed on to unmarked ice if they need to get invovled in an issue that falls under other parts of the law. And yes they do patrol the water in the summer, but thats under the Marine Vessel Act or Canadian Shipping Act, which doesn't have anything to with a seld because they fall under the HTA.

So gray area on the ice, but watch for gray areas.

Might want to double check things, sleds are covered/governed under the MSVA (Motor Snow Vehicle Act) not the HTA (HWY Traffic Act), and require insurance any where (including lakes) other then your own private property and private property you have permission to ride on. There are overlaps in legislation of the HTA and MSVA when traveling on HWY with a sled.

Check post #875 http://www.freedomsledder.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=7938&st=860 Odot1 (Sean) is a member of the OPP SAVE unit out of Napanee.

[Bryan XC700]

Might want to double check things, sleds are covered/governed under the MSVA (Motor Snow Vehicle Act) not the HTA (HWY Traffic Act), and require insurance any where (including lakes) other then your own private property and private property you have permission to ride on. There are overlaps in legislation of the HTA and MSVA when traveling on HWY with a sled.

Check post #875 http://www.freedomsl...pic=7938&st=860 Odot1 (Sean) is a member of the OPP SAVE unit out of Napanee.

Nutter is correct you still need to have insurance & valid tag to ride on the ice.

Also not all areas in ontario have snowmobile trails. MNR/OPP check valid insuarnce & sleds frequently down here on Lake St. Clair. You need the insurance for bare minimum liability, if in the act of riding your sled on the ice & you come into contact with someone fishing you are liable.

As 02Sled mentioned there are several ice fisherman who have sleds strictly for ice fishing when the snow gets to deep on the ice for ATV's, you cannot incorporate the OFSC trail permit with the validation tag price, unless the OFSC is willing to expand the trail system down to the Windsor area, currently the closest operating trail system is in Glencoe about 45 minutes from Chatham & several years their trails were never opened due to lack of snow.

Just thought I would point out a few things that the Southwestern snowmobiler has to deal with. We choose to buy permits & trailer to the nearest open trail system anywhere from 45 minutes to 5+ hours. I for one have unused permits from years past that never made it on to the sled for several reasons mostly due to weather & not being able to get a way. BUT I still bought 2 permits this season with hopes of being able to ride. Just food for thought!!

[dweese]

Might want to double check things, sleds are covered/governed under the MSVA (Motor Snow Vehicle Act)  not the HTA (HWY Traffic Act),  and require insurance any where (including lakes) other then your own private property and private property you have permission to ride on. There are overlaps in legislation of the HTA and MSVA when traveling on HWY with a sled.

Check post #875   http://www.freedomsl...pic=7938&st=860   Odot1 (Sean) is a member of the OPP SAVE unit out of Napanee.

So I mixed up the act, who cares, its still the same, but that's not the point. The point I'm making, is dude at MTO office said you don't need INS to buy a sticker, unlike your car. I'm sure the guy from the OPP unit is a smart guy, but sometimes even they make a mistake. Case and point, I almost got a ticket last year from an OPP save unit because my plate is stuck on my tunnel. But the MSVA says it can go there, after I pull the act up off the MTO website on my phone and showed him diffrent. Most times I wouldn't go nose to nose with a cop, but there was 3 of us he had held up for almost an hour and this guy was being a dick because he could. After he read what I was showing him, he just look at us and said "I'm done dealing with you guys so get out of here"Beside, like I said before, ice is a gray area, because if there is no OPEN marked trail OPP can't go out on to the ice anyways.

[crackher]

So I mixed up the act, who cares, its still the same, but that's not the point. The point I'm making, is dude at MTO office said you don't need INS to buy a sticker, unlike your car. I'm sure the guy from the OPP unit is a smart guy, but sometimes even they make a mistake. Case and point, I almost got a ticket last year from an OPP save unit because my plate is stuck on my tunnel. But the MSVA says it can go there, after I pull the act up off the MTO website on my phone and showed him diffrent. Most times I wouldn't go nose to nose with a cop, but there was 3 of us he had held up for almost an hour and this guy was being a dick because he could. After he read what I was showing him, he just look at us and said "I'm done dealing with you guys so get out of here"Beside, like I said before, ice is a gray area, because if there is no OPEN marked trail OPP can't go out on to the ice anyways.

I agree on a couple points..people make mistakes and those in a position asert some power usually IMO and exp do not appologize or back down until they are 100% sure they are wrong. but they still do not appologize.

Lakes, Lakes Lakes...what a pita!! OPP have been on lakes and while I am not 100% i'm pretty sure they can be there and do issue tickets from a variety of infractions. I am pretty sure if you ran your sled into a hut while drink you would get some sort of ticket? What about boating, i see lots of OPP vessels out there patroling. but Dweese I just called my agent that I deal with at TD and I told them if I am ice fishing on lake simcoe and I use my sled to get there is my insurance valid..th're answer...YES, in fact I made sure that I my recovery insurance includes both the cost to recover if fiasiable and any potential environmental fines that may result

[Nutter]

So I mixed up the act, who cares, its still the same, but that's not the point. The point I'm making, is dude at MTO office said you don't need INS to buy a sticker, unlike your car. I'm sure the guy from the OPP unit is a smart guy, but sometimes even they make a mistake. Case and point, I almost got a ticket last year from an OPP save unit because my plate is stuck on my tunnel. But the MSVA says it can go there, after I pull the act up off the MTO website on my phone and showed him diffrent. Most times I wouldn't go nose to nose with a cop, but there was 3 of us he had held up for almost an hour and this guy was being a dick because he could. After he read what I was showing him, he just look at us and said "I'm done dealing with you guys so get out of here"Beside, like I said before, ice is a gray area, because if there is no OPEN marked trail OPP can't go out on to the ice anyways.

No idea where your getting this notion that the OPP cannot go on ice that doesn't have a marked trail on it ? I've been with them and seen them on many many lakes, rivers, creeks and bays without trails, including the Bay of Quinty down in your neck of the woods. There is no grey area, if someone is traveling on a sled off their own property or other private land they have permission to be on, they must have insurance or they could face fines or worse be sued to the hilt if there is an accident.

Insurance

12. (1) No person shall drive a motorized snow vehicle unless the vehicle is insured under a motor vehicle liability policy in accordance with the Insurance Act, and the owner of a motorized snow vehicle shall not permit any person to drive the vehicle unless the vehicle is so insured. 2000, c. 30, s. 6 (1).

Production of evidence of insurance

(2) The driver of a motorized snow vehicle who drives or permits the driving of the motorized snow vehicle shall, upon the request of a police officer or conservation officer, produce evidence that the vehicle is insured under a motor vehicle liability policy in accordance with the Insurance Act. 2000, c. 30, s. 6 (1).

Offence for failure to have insurance

(3) Every person who contravenes subsection (1) is guilty of an offence and on conviction is liable to a fine of not less than $200 and not more than $1,000. 2000, c. 30, s. 6 (1).

Offence for producing false evidence

(4) Every driver of a motorized snow vehicle who produces false evidence when required to produce evidence under subsection (2) is guilty of an offence and on conviction is liable to a fine of not less than $200 and not more than $1,000. R.S.O. 1990, c. M.44, s. 12 (4).

Exemption

(5) This section does not apply to a person driving a motorized snow vehicle on land occupied by the owner of the vehicle. R.S.O. 1990, c. M.44, s. 12 (5).

[Mossy]

So I mixed up the act, who cares, its still the same, but that's not the point. The point I'm making, is dude at MTO office said you don't need INS to buy a sticker, unlike your car. I'm sure the guy from the OPP unit is a smart guy, but sometimes even they make a mistake. Case and point, I almost got a ticket last year from an OPP save unit because my plate is stuck on my tunnel. But the MSVA says it can go there, after I pull the act up off the MTO website on my phone and showed him diffrent. Most times I wouldn't go nose to nose with a cop, but there was 3 of us he had held up for almost an hour and this guy was being a dick because he could. After he read what I was showing him, he just look at us and said "I'm done dealing with you guys so get out of here"Beside, like I said before, ice is a gray area, because if there is no OPEN marked trail OPP can't go out on to the ice anyways.

Not to start any pissing matches here but don't listen to the people at MTO! Case and point, I pulled into a local gas station and there were 2 OPP fueling up there too. The officer in front of me said " I will save you some money if you put the plate on the right way" (Sitcker to the front). My response was "The lady at MTO told me they were to be put on that way". He said " I don't care what they said there! They don't enforce anything! I do!"

So I switched the plates in the gas station parking lot!

Best bet if you don't know, find out from someone that will know for sure.

[skidooer]

He said " I don't care what they said there! They don't enforce anything! I do!"

The police can enforce anything they want. The next officer you come across can have you go through the same process, only in reverse.

Case in point: There does not exist a single law that anyone has been able to reference that says aftermarket mufflers are illegal, but they are charging people with them anyway. I don't think anyone here is complaining, but how are you supposed to obey "laws" that aren't even written?

[catinental couch]

I was told that it was because of the "official secrets statute" by the head officer of the MTO.

[02Sled]

So I mixed up the act, who cares, its still the same, but that's not the point. The point I'm making, is dude at MTO office said you don't need INS to buy a sticker, unlike your car. I'm sure the guy from the OPP unit is a smart guy, but sometimes even they make a mistake. Case and point, I almost got a ticket last year from an OPP save unit because my plate is stuck on my tunnel. But the MSVA says it can go there, after I pull the act up off the MTO website on my phone and showed him diffrent. Most times I wouldn't go nose to nose with a cop, but there was 3 of us he had held up for almost an hour and this guy was being a dick because he could. After he read what I was showing him, he just look at us and said "I'm done dealing with you guys so get out of here"Beside, like I said before, ice is a gray area, because if there is no OPEN marked trail OPP can't go out on to the ice anyways.

Maybe some of the OPP don't know that one. I have seen them out on Beausoleil and in that area of Gerogian Bay, not on staked trails on the ice.

[dweese]

No idea where your getting this notion that the OPP cannot go on ice that doesn't have a marked trail on it ? I've been with them and seen them on many many lakes, rivers, creeks and bays without trails, including the Bay of Quinty down in your neck of the woods. There is no grey area, if someone is traveling on a sled off their own property or other private land they have permission to be on, they must have insurance or they could face fines or worse be sued to the hilt if there is an accident.

Nutter, man dude, your like my kids and only half listen to whats being said to you

Read what I posted, I said the..... The dude at the MTO office told me you didn't need INS to buy a plate sticker, no time I did I say you didn't need INS, you just not need to show proof to buy a sticker. Unlike when you buy one for your car, truck, motorcycles......

And like I said, they can come on the ice but they do not enforce the HTA which you corrected me as the MSVA, if there is no trail...They will come out if 2 ice fishermen are kicking each others ass or if someone sets a fish hut on fire, things that fall under the criminal code. Which means don't drink and drive on the ICE because that's not HTA or MSVA that's a federal offence, because they will bust your ass on that one. I know a few guys that figured they where ok and got hit on that one.

I know this because I was stopped just off the of the Murray Canal on the Brighton Bay side about 4 years ago, talking to a buddy of mine. 2 Quinte area OPP sleds stopped on the point about 50 feet away from us and, wave me over, so they could check out my classic machine (the 71 TNT from a box) I was already off helmet in hand so I walked over to see what they really wanted. They wanted to see the sled, I told them it was flooded and they where welcome to come on to the ice and check it out. That's when they said, no OFSC trail so we can't bring the sleds on the ice.

[Wildbill]

Nutter, man dude, your like my kids and only half listen to whats being said to you

Read what I posted, I said the..... The dude at the MTO office told me you didn't need INS to buy a plate sticker, no time I did I say you didn't need INS, you just not need to show proof to buy a sticker. Unlike when you buy one for your car, truck, motorcycles......

And like I said, they can come on the ice but they do not enforce the HTA which you corrected me as the MSVA, if there is no trail...They will come out if 2 ice fishermen are kicking each others ass or if someone sets a fish hut on fire, things that fall under the criminal code. Which means don't drink and drive on the ICE because that's not HTA or MSVA that's a federal offence, because they will bust your ass on that one. I know a few guys that figured they where ok and got hit on that one.

I know this because I was stopped just off the of the Murray Canal on the Brighton Bay side about 4 years ago, talking to a buddy of mine. 2 Quinte area OPP sleds stopped on the point about 50 feet away from us and, wave me over, so they could check out my classic machine (the 71 TNT from a box) I was already off helmet in hand so I walked over to see what they really wanted. They wanted to see the sled, I told them it was flooded and they where welcome to come on to the ice and check it out. That's when they said, no OFSC trail so we can't bring the sleds on the ice.

Bud do not count on that I have been pulled over on several unstaked lakes. Up here the cops know the back trails better than most.

[satrat]

beg to differ but the OPP can and do travel ice legally even in areas with no staked trail. Hell here in Dryden if the snow isnt too deep they will chase down the lake in thier cruisers

[crxski]

Wow to much to read!! great post though.

IMO ... Antique 1990 and older, classic 2002 and older, everything else full price.

I have a two friends that would ride my old Skiroule just to come out if I had a pass for it. But really I would never put a 125 pass on it, but I would for $50 as I would get 50 bucks worth of trail riding out of it. $125 I would rather save that for gas on my newer sled.

Going to be an interesting next few years...

I'm in education and its like sledding, its suspose to be about the kids but really its more about the admin and board, kids are down the list. I'm sure the ofsc could save a few 1000 or 100,000 by cutting some of the upper management and remove that place they rent in Barrie and move it to a club house.

[skidooer]

remove that place they rent in Barrie and move it to a club house.

That is actually a really excellent observation. There are multi-million dollar companies that don't even have offices, why does the OFSC need one, really?

They very well could have a good reason. So let's talk about it.

[dweese]

Bud do not count on that I have been pulled over on several unstaked lakes. Up here the cops know the back trails better than most.

beg to differ but the OPP can and do travel ice legally even in areas with no staked trail. Hell here in Dryden if the snow isnt too deep they will chase down the lake in thier cruisers

Don't want to drag it out for ever, but like I said, the statement came right out of a cops mouth. Maybe its a regional thing, because sometimes we can go a whole winter without the bay being frozen enough to walk on, let alone drive a sled or car on, so they are told stay off the ice. Who knows, doesn't really matter anymore, has nothing to do with the topic anyways....

All I know is, I wish they had the Classic permit sooner, the year I sold my 91 Indy, it was about 6 weeks later they announced the classic permit. Had they done it 2 months sooner, I would have kept the indy as a second sled for my non-sled owning friends to ride. Instead I sold it to a friend of a friend who figured he knew more about cab setups than Polaris engineers and had it running great, creating more power than it ever has, for about 5miles.....Sure I got my money out of the deal, but to see a perfectly good running sled get destroyed because someone thinks they know what they are doing, is still upsetting, makes me wish I had sold it to someone else

[revrnd]

Sure I got my money out of the deal, but to see a perfectly good running sled get destroyed because someone thinks they know what they are doing, is still upsetting, makes me wish I had sold it to someone else

Sounds like the guy that was REALLY interested in my previous truck. Sold it to another couple, because the clown would've probably wrecked it.

[Nutter]

Wow to much to read!! great post though.

IMO ... Antique 1990 and older, classic 2002 and older, everything else full price.

I have a two friends that would ride my old Skiroule just to come out if I had a pass for it. But really I would never put a 125 pass on it, but I would for $50 as I would get 50 bucks worth of trail riding out of it. $125 I would rather save that for gas on my newer sled.

Going to be an interesting next few years...

I'm in education and its like sledding, its suspose to be about the kids but really its more about the admin and board, kids are down the list. I'm sure the ofsc could save a few 1000 or 100,000 by cutting some of the upper management and remove that place they rent in Barrie and move it to a club house.

That is actually a really excellent observation. There are multi-million dollar companies that don't even have offices, why does the OFSC need one, really?

They very well could have a good reason. So let's talk about it.

The lease on the little office in Barrie that holds the 18 16 paid employee's who admin for 231 clubs and 7000+ volunteers, cost less monthly then what some clubs, districts and associations pay for a place to take care of their business. Plus I'm pretty sure theres some tourism subsidies that help carry the Barrie office lease costs.

[dweese]

The lease on the little office in Barrie that holds the 18 16 paid employee's who admin for 231 clubs and 7000+ volunteers, cost less monthly then what some clubs, districts and associations pay for a place to take care of their business. Plus I'm pretty sure theres some tourism subsidies that help carry the Barrie office lease costs.

Yes your right but that's the local clubs choice if they want to money from their operating budget for outlandish club houses.

I've only seen about 7 or 8 club houses. Some in areas where the club sells 1000's of permits a year. And not one was anything that rates with rented office space in terms of yearly operating cost. Most are donated out buildings from a local farmer just trying to help a club out because he cares.

I'm sure most of the people working for he OFSC could be easily setup to work from home (something my wife does all the time) which is proven to be much more productive and a much lower cost than looking after main office space to house everyone in.

[skidooer]

Plus I'm pretty sure theres some tourism subsidies that help carry the Barrie office lease costs.

Can those subsidies not be used elsewhere? If the office actually runs for free and those resources cannot be allocated in any other way, then fine. If the office frequently hosts world dignitaries to try and persuade them to fund the sport, I guess it serves a pretty good purpose; though arguably space could be rented for only those occasions.

I'm sure most of the people working for he OFSC could be easily setup to work from home (something my wife does all the time) which is proven to be much more productive and a much lower cost than looking after main office space to house everyone in.

This was the direction I was really going, rather than moving to a clubhouse. It is a proven model. The OFSC is not a factory, there is no reason to treat the employees like factory workers. By all accounts, the organization is running on fumes. If releasing the office can allocate more funds by freeing up the space, why not?

[dweese]

The OFSC is not a factory, there is no reason to treat the employees like factory workers. By all accounts, the organization is running on fumes. If releasing the office can allocate more funds by freeing up the space, why not?

Right, I'm sure the OFSC is paying $8000-$10000 a month to run that office. Between rent, phones, Internet and power.

You have people working from home office, all you have to pay is an Internet connection. You use VoIP for phone systems Skype makes a simple easy to use video conference software. And when you do need to hold face to face meetings there are lots of places that rent meeting rooms for one off uses.

[FreezerBurnt]

Right, I'm sure the OFSC is paying $8000-$10000 a month to run that office. Between rent, phones, Internet and power.

You have people working from home office, all you have to pay is an Internet connection. You use VoIP for phone systems Skype makes a simple easy to use video conference software. And when you do need to hold face to face meetings there are lots of places that rent meeting rooms for one off uses.

IMPO the OFSC is too big to be home based, we just have to live with it, it is not a 5 person operation