Mooseman Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 Instead of repeating myself, I'll just give a link to my story of blown engines. Just skip the idiots talking about oil mixes. I don't think it's a problem with a particular gas station but all regular gas, which now has 10% ethanol, which was mandated by Dalton last summer. All else being equal and nothing to explain the failures, it would make sense that the PTO side pistons would always fail as they would be on the hotter side farthest from the fan. Anybody else suffer from lean conditions or unexplained failures this season? Do you think that ethanol is responsible? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildbill Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 Not sure if it is the ethonol but some gas additives have been eating some plastic parts. By the description it does sound like a detonation failure. Can you post pics of the piston please? The 550 has proven itself vulnerable to engine failure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mooseman Posted March 16, 2011 Author Share Posted March 16, 2011 Here you go... First one is of 550f, chunk of top ring land was broken off along with hole below rings on exhaust side, second is hole in 503f, third is of 377f, top ring land gone and chunks of the ring also damaged head. All were on PTO side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viperules700 Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 Here you go... First one is of 550f, chunk of top ring land was broken off along with hole below rings on exhaust side, second is hole in 503f, third is of 377f, top ring land gone and chunks of the ring also damaged head. All were on PTO side. First of all, the ethanol (is a form of alcohol)It causes the engine to run colder (not hotter). So it causes the fuel air,oil mixture to be leaned out in colder conditions. Most sleds need to be jetted up one jet size to accomdate this. Skidoo is famous for jetting it's sleds right on the edge. Sorry about your luck. Skidoo has jetting recommendations for runing 10% oxygenated fuels. Cheers. I knew a few other people that melted down because of jetting this year. None of them followed skidoo's updated jetting plan either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildbill Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 Here you go... First one is of 550f, chunk of top ring land was broken off along with hole below rings on exhaust side, second is hole in 503f, third is of 377f, top ring land gone and chunks of the ring also damaged head. All were on PTO side. Your 550 is definitly lean.With that severe damage to the pto side you should inspect closely the other side as well. Often rejetting is not the only solution. http://fuelschool.blogspot.com/2009/02/phase-separation-in-ethanol-blended.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mossy Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 Great read Bill! There is alot of factor of ethanol that are misconcived. Gasolines ideal air to fuel mix ratio is aprox 14:1 where the ethanol is aprox 7:1. The more ethanol the leaner the mix. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blakesnowcrest Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 Dident blow any engines this season, but I busted off a trailing arm... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildbill Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 Dident blow any engines this season, but I busted off a trailing arm... Well that hopefully was not "ethonol" related !!!!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catinental couch Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 Dident blow any engines this season, but I busted off a trailing arm... Blake,you weren't out drinking with the mailman in Severn Bridge again were you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dweese Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 I broke a mirror off again Had I done it with at a gas station with a pump hose I guess I could have blamed it on ethanol. Shell's high end fuel is ethanol free. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mooseman Posted March 16, 2011 Author Share Posted March 16, 2011 Your 550 is definitly lean.With that severe damage to the pto side you should inspect closely the other side as well. Often rejetting is not the only solution. http://fuelschool.blogspot.com/2009/02/phase-separation-in-ethanol-blended.html Very good article. The 550 will be getting a full rebuild since a lot of debris would have gotten into the crankcase. Hopefully the bearings are still good. I didn't know that all regular gas went to ethanol last June in Ontario since I knew that my local gas station was selling pure gas and ethanol seperately before that. I have since been running premium in all my sleds but I'll still richen up a notch just in case. I had also noticed that the mileage in my truck was bad lately. I just put in a tank of premium and immediately noticed that it lasted a lot longer. I don't have any actual numbers but at the next fillup, I'll make note of the mileage I get. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skidooer Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 I had also noticed that the mileage in my truck was bad lately. Same here. I'm down almost 100kms per tank compared to six months ago. But if you say it was introduced in June, that wouldn't add up as the cause. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildbill Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 Same here. I'm down almost 100kms per tank compared to six months ago. But if you say it was introduced in June, that wouldn't add up as the cause. Not all stations got it then some did not get the crap until last fall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mooseman Posted March 16, 2011 Author Share Posted March 16, 2011 I tried to find anything to support what the retailer (Drummonds) told me and all I found was a 2007 Ontario law that says that 5% of all gasoline sold must be from a renewable source (ethanol) and distributors must submit a report on that each year. I think I was a fed a crock of stuff. I think that when he was selling ethanol in a seperate pump at a higher price, he wasn't meeting his quota so when this station was refurbished, he eliminated the ethanol pump and just added the 10% ethanol to regular to ensure he meets his quota for the year. Anyway, he can still get away with it as far as responsibility for damage to engines is concerned because other stations have been selling 10% for years and there's no way to prove if it contains more than 10%. There are a couple of other local distributors (MacEwen and Stinson) that still have seperate ethanol pumps. I'm going to call them as well as all the majors to get the full skinny on their content and post it here. One thing's for sure, ethanol is not helping us one bit! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mossy Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 http://www.fuel-testers.com/order.html There are test kits out there and not that expensive! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mooseman Posted March 17, 2011 Author Share Posted March 17, 2011 Yep, saw those except that it won't tell you the percentage of ethanol but just if there is ethanol and/or water. Could still be useful though. Gets expensive with the shipping from the US. Ordered one anyway just for my own curiosity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dweese Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 I had also noticed that the mileage in my truck was bad lately. I just put in a tank of premium and immediately noticed that it lasted a lot longer. I don't have any actual numbers but at the next fillup, I'll make note of the mileage I get. Same here. I'm down almost 100kms per tank compared to six months ago. But if you say it was introduced in June, that wouldn't add up as the cause. 10% ethanol fuel (E10) has been at 99% of gas stations in regular and mid grade fuels for the last 3 or 4 years now, its nothing new at all. When the Ontario GOV put the new law in to effect it was just a PR thing to help support growing ethanol plants in Ontario. Pumps do not have to be labeled 10% ethanol anymore, so just because there is no label doesn't mean your not getting E10 fuel. Most gas companies are turning their premium in to E10 as well. My local Shell station has a 0% ethanol label on their premium pumps. As for why your mileage is down 100km a tank from 6 months ago, thats an easy one. In mid to late October the gas companies start to add all the winter additives to their fuels which take away from the performance of the fuel but helps to push any water thought with out freezing during the colder months. Also in the winter the air is colder and more dense than summer, so your EFI computer adjust the fuel mixture up because of the change in air. So you use more gas. You'll start to see shortly your fuel milage going back up as teh winter gas goes away and the warmer temps show up. Over all with E10 you'll see very little change in milage. 2 summers ago we where in the US with the wifes van which is flex fuel (E85) rated, meaning I can run 85% ethanol fuel in it. I filled up just before we headed home at a place that sold E85. Following the same route home, we took down, I got about 80km less out of that tank of E85 than we did on a tank of E10. I knew this would happen because the owners manual says you will see a 5-10% drop in milage per tank with E85 fuels than with normal gas. E85 was also 25 cents a gallon cheaper so in the long run it did work out to be a savings to run the E85, but you have to fill up more offten. If you really want to keep an eye on your fuel milage check out Fuelly it works from your smartphone very nicely or you can save the info and input it at home from your PC. See my stats here http://www.fuelly.com/driver/dweese Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Domino Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 It is interesting that the cost of fuel does not seem to be affected by the addition of Ethenol, or is it? Why is Sunoco/Petro Canada Ultra 94 now priced $0.18L ($0.68 USg) greater than Regular? When did this "premium" fuel become so much more here in Canada? I just returned from the U.S. and I paid $0.20 more per GALLON ($0.053L) for Sunoco Ultra93 (I believe the 93 or 94 is just a different math?). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dweese Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 It is interesting that the cost of fuel does not seem to be affected by the addition of Ethenol, or is it? Why is Sunoco/Petro Canada Ultra 94 now priced $0.18L ($0.68 USg) greater than Regular? When did this "premium" fuel become so much more here in Canada? I just returned from the U.S. and I paid $0.20 more per GALLON ($0.053L) for Sunoco Ultra93 (I believe the 93 or 94 is just a different math?). I think Premium has always been about 15% more than regular, the problem is now with todays price of gas that 15% turns in to $0.18 more a liter. Face it, we are just getting screwed with at the pumps here in Canada. Be it from the gas company and the GOV, you can hate on the Ontario GOV for bring in HST and pushing up the price 7% more, but the real crime started back when the GST first came out and was applied to gas. There was already a provincial and federal tax on gas hidden in the price. Than along came GST which was charged not on the price of the gas itself but on the per liter sales price. Putting a 7% tax(old GST amount) on 2 taxes that where already being charged, so we pay tax on a tax when we buy gas. And the fact we have almost no refineries in Canada to turn our oil in to gas. It all has to go to the US first than sold back to us, again costing more money. But there is nothing we can do, big oil is so deep in to the pockets of all GOV parties its not funny. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 I just put in a tank of premium and immediately noticed that it lasted a lot longer. My touring buddy put Premium into his sled near the Cochrane Fraserdale loop because he wasn't certain about gas conditions at the top (no reason to worry, in hindsight). I used regular. We normally consume roughly the same amount of fuel, but he only needed 11 litres at the top and I took 12. He swears that MPG increases with premium. The cost of Premium simply bugs me because when it was first introduced, it cost an additional 2 cents per gallon. Now it's 10 cents more a litre. Was the technology more efficient when first introduced? Good info. above. Sorry to hear about the engine issues encountered this year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mooseman Posted March 17, 2011 Author Share Posted March 17, 2011 Be careful with the Petro-Canada/Sunoco Ultra 94. That one DOES contain ethanol. That's how they boost the octane. When Sunoco bought out Petro-Canada, they renamed their stations to Petro-Canada but kept their particular gas grades at those stations. The original PC's kept the status quo. I wouldn't trust anything from Petro-Can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sledjunk Posted March 18, 2011 Share Posted March 18, 2011 My touring buddy put Premium into his sled near the Cochrane Fraserdale loop because he wasn't certain about gas conditions at the top (no reason to worry, in hindsight). I used regular. We normally consume roughly the same amount of fuel, but he only needed 11 litres at the top and I took 12. He swears that MPG increases with premium. The cost of Premium simply bugs me because when it was first introduced, it cost an additional 2 cents per gallon. Now it's 10 cents more a litre. Was the technology more efficient when first introduced? Good info. above. Sorry to hear about the engine issues encountered this year. Good luck finding it at $.10 / L upcharge! It is now regularly $.15 to $.18 more. The Miata definitely gets much beter mileage on Premium, but the engine design calls for Premium so I am sure the timing is severely retarded when running Regular. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yamahas Posted March 18, 2011 Share Posted March 18, 2011 My local Ultramar last week had regular for 1.21 and premium (91) was 1.30. Not sure on the ethanol situation with Ultramar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sledjunk Posted March 18, 2011 Share Posted March 18, 2011 My local Ultramar last week had regular for 1.21 and premium (91) was 1.30. Not sure on the ethanol situation with Ultramar. Must have been Thursday? Thursday's they offer 3 cents off per litre. Still, only 12 cents isn't too bad. ( I can't believe I just said that! ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yamahas Posted March 19, 2011 Share Posted March 19, 2011 Must have been Thursday? Thursday's they offer 3 cents off per litre. Still, only 12 cents isn't too bad. ( I can't believe I just said that! ) Come to think of it, it was thursday. That 3cents off is for everyone? I assumed I needed a membership of some sort. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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