$2.33 a mile for for 107 miles

[skidooer]

The ofsc would have a lot more paid employees that spend a lot more money in our economy thus increasing our revenue base.

As I said before, as soon as the volunteers start getting paid for what they do, the landowners will want in on that action as well. It is one thing to give up your land for the good of a bunch of hobbyists, but if people are actually making money directly off that land, good luck keeping the status quo.

With that said, many of the snowmobile dealers in this area have close ties to agriculture. So I guess that explains how they will benefit; either through the renting out of their own land, or indirectly through the farmers who have found an additional income stream.

[UsedtoSkidoo]

$400.00 per year for a trail system as vast as ours is not that expensive.

I am really only interested in riding locally. I've done some travelling around the province, but there are no trails like home. If an increase like that is necessary/beneficial maybe a regional permit can remain $200 and a province wide permit can sell for $400? I know it would screw over our fine folks in the far north, but if I'm never going to ride there, why should I be subsidizing you riding there?

Exactly....

And if there is currently a thread in here about the "classic" permit price, I would mind putting my opinion in there as well.

Opinions here are like.............oh never mind!

Sledders make me laugh,

Pay 5000 to 15000 for a sled. 400 to a 1000 for insurance, 80 bucks for carbides, 150.00 for a friggin Doo belt, 200-500 for a helmet and then complain about a 200.00 permit price.

[UsedtoSkidoo]

The ofsc would have a lot more paid employees that spend a lot more money in our economy thus increasing our revenue base.

As I said before, as soon as the volunteers start getting paid for what they do, the landowners will want in on that action as well. It is one thing to give up your land for the good of a bunch of hobbyists, but if people are actually making money directly off that land, good luck keeping the status quo.

With that said, many of the snowmobile dealers in this area have close ties to agriculture. So I guess that explains how they will benefit; either through the renting out of their own land, or indirectly through the farmers who have found an additional income stream.

I havent explored that option but if it works out then fine. I have no real issue against that!

I never said that the OFSC should make money, I just said its people should.

[skidooer]

Pay 5000 to 15000 for a sled. 400 to a 1000 for insurance, 80 bucks for carbides, 150.00 for a friggin Doo belt, 200-500 for a helmet and then complain about a 200.00 permit price.

As I already mentioned, it isn't the actual dollar value that is the problem. It's the gamble. I feel that $200 is far too much money to put into the casino also, even though I might walk out with thousands of dollars and greatly benefit from the initial outlay of cash.

The $5000-15000 sled is still there for you next year if there is no snow

The $400-1000 insurance actively protects you against many events even if there is no snow. Most importantly: You may cancel your policy at any time and get most of your money back, if necessary.

The $80 carbides do not wear if there is no snow

The $150 belt does not blow if there is no snow

The $200-500 helmet should still fit next year if there is no snow

Additionally, everything listed except for the refundable insurance has a resale value. If there is no snow, the $200 permit expires. You cannot resell it and you cannot ask for a refund at the end of a poor winter. When you get right down to it, you are right, the cost of a permit is nothing compared to the actual ownership of a snowmobile. But you have to look at the perception of value to understand why it is very expensive.

I never said that the OFSC should make money, I just said its people should.

I guess my point is that the landowners would potentially bleed out any additional profit made from the price increase, leaving nothing left to pay the people who actually did the work. Unless, of course, the permit cost was substantially more to the point that landowner competition kicks in.

[UsedtoSkidoo]

Pay 5000 to 15000 for a sled. 400 to a 1000 for insurance, 80 bucks for carbides, 150.00 for a friggin Doo belt, 200-500 for a helmet and then complain about a 200.00 permit price.

As I already mentioned, it isn't the actual dollar value that is the problem. It's the gamble. I feel that $200 is far too much money to put into the casino also, even though I might walk out with thousands of dollars and greatly benefit from the initial outlay of cash.

The $5000-15000 sled is still there for you next year if there is no snow

The $400-1000 insurance actively protects you against many events even if there is no snow. Most importantly: You may cancel your policy at any time and get most of your money back, if necessary.

The $80 carbides do not wear if there is no snow

The $150 belt does not blow if there is no snow

The $200-500 helmet should still fit next year if there is no snow

Additionally, everything listed except for the refundable insurance has a resale value. If there is no snow, the $200 permit expires. You cannot resell it and you cannot ask for a refund at the end of a poor winter. When you get right down to it, you are right, the cost of a permit is nothing compared to the actual ownership of a snowmobile. But you have to look at the perception of value to understand why it is very expensive.

I never said that the OFSC should make money, I just said its people should.

I guess my point is that the landowners would potentially bleed out any additional profit made from the price increase, leaving nothing left to pay the people who actually did the work. Unless, of course, the permit cost was substantially more to the point that landowner competition kicks in.

With sledding its all a gamble and yes you can try and recoup your losses but at a significantly lower value than original. Sounds like a casino doesnt it! :P

Also, the ofsc doesnt necessarrily have to make money but if the economic forecast allows a $$ per mile this may inhibit or help the model as well as might keep those pesky MLA people interested in not closing the trails! They might have competition! :P

[skidooer]

Also, the ofsc doesnt necessarrily have to make money but if the economic forecast allows a $$ per mile this may inhibit or help the model as well as might keep those pesky MLA people interested in not closing the trails! They might have competition! :P

It would be fascinating to see what would happen to the sport if landowners were scrambling to try and get a trail on their property.

[Av42medics]

Exactly....

And if there is currently a thread in here about the "classic" permit price, I would mind putting my opinion in there as well.

If you have an opinion then start a thread about it. In spirit, I think it was a good idea.....

Done ----> in the main forum.

[02Sled]

As already said there are no guarantees. You pay the golf club membership and unless you were a true die hard didn't get much use out of it this past summer. It either rained or was windy and cold. The system we have while not perfect is pretty darned good and good value. Part of the problem is those who ride without a permit and this year it has been suggested they are more prevelant than in the past.

I just read that Saskatchewan is going from $40.00 to $70.00. You pay your fees to the province when you licence your sled so there is little or no chance to not pay so virtually every sled pays for the trails. I know the OFSC doesn't want to give up control of the $ so that would not likely happen here but it sure would drive the cost down if everyone who licenced a sled also paid for a permit.

[sledjunk]

As already said there are no guarantees. You pay the golf club membership and unless you were a true die hard didn't get much use out of it this past summer. It either rained or was windy and cold. The system we have while not perfect is pretty darned good and good value. Part of the problem is those who ride without a permit and this year it has been suggested they are more prevelant than in the past.

I just read that Saskatchewan is going from $40.00 to $70.00. You pay your fees to the province when you licence your sled so there is little or no chance to not pay so virtually every sled pays for the trails. I know the OFSC doesn't want to give up control of the $ so that would not likely happen here but it sure would drive the cost down if everyone who licenced a sled also paid for a permit.

You are assuming that the sleds that do not have the permit are all registered every year and still would be if the registration fee increased from $15 to include a trail permit. I wonder how many sleds that are used on lakes and private property are even registered now?

[skidooer]

You are assuming that the sleds that do not have the permit are all registered every year and still would be if the registration fee increased from $15 to include a trail permit. I wonder how many sleds that are used on lakes and private property are even registered now?

According to the OFSC*, if every single snowmobile used in Ontario had a trail permit, the full season permit price could be reduced to $160**. Add $15 for registration and you are at $175. How many people are going to register their old snowmobiles at that price? And yet, the drop doesn't seem all that significant for the rest of us.

* Based on the number of snowmobilers in 2005. The more recent numbers appear to have mysteriously vanished from the internet.

** Based on the assumption that more snowmobiles with more trail permits do not increase the cost of maintaining the trails

[teener]

As already said there are no guarantees. You pay the golf club membership and unless you were a true die hard didn't get much use out of it this past summer. It either rained or was windy and cold.

Same goes for boating. If you follow the logic, marinas should rebate a portion of your slip fees if it's a crappy season (like 2009) because people weren't there using the showers or running the A/C on their boats.

Likewise for a season's pass to the ski hills or to Paramount Wonderland (or whatever they call themselves now). And where do you draw the line? How crappy is too crappy?

The system we have while not perfect is pretty darned good and good value. Part of the problem is those who ride without a permit and this year it has been suggested they are more prevelant than in the past.

Agreed.

[Mrs. Mossy]

I haven't been on here for a while because all of this ridiculousness really cheeses me off, to be polite.

UTS....we are all well aware of your economic state....until you live down here for a couple of years and maybe cut your income by 2/3's...then maybe you have a valid position to start spouting about other people's circumstances and what they should and should not be able to do with their recreational time, or what they can or cannot afford. Why should we give up one of the few things we enjoy to pay for you to sled the big trails every weekend?

I whole-heartedly agree with Skidooer that the permit prices should vary by region...but I realize that will never happen. So Mossy and I save all year to pay for our permits so that we can continue to enjoy sledding when we can.

With respect to the antique sled permits, I'm not sure what the issue is there....I see this as an attempt to allow those of us that can't afford brand new sleds every year to be able to afford to get out on older sleds. I would go and check out the thread that was started....but I think I've said enough this evening....

[UsedtoSkidoo]

I haven't been on here for a while because all of this ridiculousness really cheeses me off, to be polite.

UTS....we are all well aware of your economic state....until you live down here for a couple of years and maybe cut your income by 2/3's...then maybe you have a valid position to start spouting about other people's circumstances and what they should and should not be able to do with their recreational time, or what they can or cannot afford. Why should we give up one of the few things we enjoy to pay for you to sled the big trails every weekend?

I whole-heartedly agree with Skidooer that the permit prices should vary by region...but I realize that will never happen. So Mossy and I save all year to pay for our permits so that we can continue to enjoy sledding when we can.

With respect to the antique sled permits, I'm not sure what the issue is there....I see this as an attempt to allow those of us that can't afford brand new sleds every year to be able to afford to get out on older sleds. I would go and check out the thread that was started....but I think I've said enough this evening....

Mrs Mossy,

Im not quite sure why your cheesed off due to this particular thread. I fully believe that the bantering of new idea's and theories back and forth will only benefit and further sport. That is what this forum was designed for and what I think keeps it alive. Now everyone has the right and ability to disagree but I dont think it should be done in anger because Im pretty sure no one is making any of their arguments with malice.

Economic states notwithstanding, I am fully and openly trying to grow everyones economic state. Imagine if everyone could purchase some more of Mossy's oil? That would be a good thing wouldnt it? I certainly dont think that anyone should give up sledding or have too. I think more people should get into the sport. I also do not think raising the permit price would hurt the sport or an individual but would help them. I am also for getting a deal on multi permit families. That would help wouldnt it?

Idea's and discussion is what furthers society. Whether your right or wrong as long as its done to benefit something or someone.

UTS

[02Sled]

I haven't been on here for a while because all of this ridiculousness really cheeses me off, to be polite.

UTS....we are all well aware of your economic state....until you live down here for a couple of years and maybe cut your income by 2/3's...then maybe you have a valid position to start spouting about other people's circumstances and what they should and should not be able to do with their recreational time, or what they can or cannot afford. Why should we give up one of the few things we enjoy to pay for you to sled the big trails every weekend?

I whole-heartedly agree with Skidooer that the permit prices should vary by region...but I realize that will never happen. So Mossy and I save all year to pay for our permits so that we can continue to enjoy sledding when we can.

With respect to the antique sled permits, I'm not sure what the issue is there....I see this as an attempt to allow those of us that can't afford brand new sleds every year to be able to afford to get out on older sleds. I would go and check out the thread that was started....but I think I've said enough this evening....

You are absolutely right regarding varying economic situations. We have some friends who are very well off financially and others who are struggling. We are in between at comfortable. Some of the more affluent can be unintentionally hurtful when they make a comment ie. I think I'll go pick up new sleds for the wife and I... they are only $12,000 each. To some of my firends that is pocket money... to others the mortgage payments for the next two years. It all has to be kept in perspective.

If the sport is to survive it has to remain affordable to the average person. We have seen the cost of new sleds reach in some cases par with low end cars. Hopefully this won't become the rich mans sport. If it does and the lower to moderate income earners are squeezed out due to economics we will all suffer greatly.

[UsedtoSkidoo]

I haven't been on here for a while because all of this ridiculousness really cheeses me off, to be polite.

UTS....we are all well aware of your economic state....until you live down here for a couple of years and maybe cut your income by 2/3's...then maybe you have a valid position to start spouting about other people's circumstances and what they should and should not be able to do with their recreational time, or what they can or cannot afford. Why should we give up one of the few things we enjoy to pay for you to sled the big trails every weekend?

I whole-heartedly agree with Skidooer that the permit prices should vary by region...but I realize that will never happen. So Mossy and I save all year to pay for our permits so that we can continue to enjoy sledding when we can.

With respect to the antique sled permits, I'm not sure what the issue is there....I see this as an attempt to allow those of us that can't afford brand new sleds every year to be able to afford to get out on older sleds. I would go and check out the thread that was started....but I think I've said enough this evening....

You are absolutely right regarding varying economic situations. We have some friends who are very well off financially and others who are struggling. We are in between at comfortable. Some of the more affluent can be unintentionally hurtful when they make a comment ie. I think I'll go pick up new sleds for the wife and I... they are only $12,000 each. To some of my firends that is pocket money... to others the mortgage payments for the next two years. It all has to be kept in perspective.

If the sport is to survive it has to remain affordable to the average person. We have seen the cost of new sleds reach in some cases par with low end cars. Hopefully this won't become the rich mans sport. If it does and the lower to moderate income earners are squeezed out due to economics we will all suffer greatly.

I really cant see what this statement has to do with anything?

All industries have varying economic situations. If someone has a perilous economic situation, I cant understand why they would even think about snowmobiling as a viable past time. I think it already is in its present form a "rich mans" sport. But it doesnt have to be. It can be an economic, social and regionally variable sport.

Mrs Mossy was saying that to increase the permit cost would possibly stop people from sledding and that a regional permit was a thing she would be interested in exploring.

I agree, maybe we could colour code some permits to indicate that they could only sled in certain area's? Kind of like the classic permit. Its maybe an idea worth exploring. However this would mean a larger enforcement presence and that money has to come from somewhere.

Why wouldnt we look at a model that is variable depending on usage, age of machine, regional etc.

Kind of like this...

all access permit $400.00 (family permits less 20%)

a regional permit $150.00 (could be multi regioned?)

a classic permit $100.00

Why wouldnt this work as a business model?

p.s. Those are just numbers picked out of my.......................brain! (you thought I was going to say something else didnt you? )

[Domino]

Bunny,

Could a regional permit change in cost based on the region it is designated for? Easiest would be for a district permit. South Western Ontario could be lower than a permit for D7. Actually D7 and similar permits would likely not have a large discount over an Ontario permit.

Interesting thoughts.

[teener]

Why wouldnt we look at a model that is variable depending on usage, age of machine, regional etc.

Kind of like this...

all access permit $400.00 (family permits less 20%)

a regional permit $150.00 (could be multi regioned?)

a classic permit $100.00

Why wouldnt this work as a business model?

While I agree with the sentiment, the bottom line is that you can never make it fair for everybody. What happens when you have to ride across the corner of one region to get to another? What happens if the region you typically ride (and where you bought your permit) has a crappy season but another region is great? What happens if you move? Or you split up? IMO, a model like this creates more headaches and inequities than it solves. The costs to administer and enforce this would quickly eat up any perceived financial benefits.

Where do you draw the line in the quest for fairness? I don't have the luxury of owning property out of town and have to trailer everywhere. Should I not get a discount because I have to pay for accomodations and meals because I can't ride from a home or cottage?

Individual economics aside, buying a permit is a calculated risk.

[Domino]

Buying a permit early is a risk, and for that risk it is discounted by 20%. I buy early because I am willing to travel a reasonable distance to ride. Every fifth year I get a free permit, mathematically.

[skidooer]

the bottom line is that you can never make it fair for everybody.

I'm not sure it is about being fair so much as it is about maximizing revenue for the clubs. I cannot see myself paying $400 to ride a 50 mile radius around my home. I will simply give up use of the trails. A regional permit would still allow me to direct a lesser amount to the clubs that will have to deal with my wear and tear and the other clubs will know for certain that I will not be a burden on their trails.

I'm not suggesting that the permit pricing scheme even needs change, but if we don't talk about it, we'd never know for sure.

[UsedtoSkidoo]

You could never make it fair to everyone. Just "more" fair, I think.

There will always be a complaint.

I firmly believe that permit prices should be raised in order to make the OFSC a stronger and more powerful entity. Why should sledders be put on the back burner when the amount of dollars that is injected into the Ontario economy is in the billions. Way more than a lot of competing recreational activities. Look at the MLA dispute. If the OFSC had a stronger voice or a lobby group (Thanks Canuck ) then do you think that they would have pulled this stuff with the trails? Basically a group of less than a hundred is making waves for all sledders. Why should the OFSC have to put up with that? They need more revenue and this will increase the overall political strength of the group.

Dom,

Im not sure whether you could have a pay by mile system? I would think that a pay by region across the board price would be way easier. A multi region permit would be just as good as well.

[teener]

...pay by mile system?

Just what we don't need - transponders on sleds. Who wants to think about how much an extra hour or day of riding is going to cost them? If people are being nickle and dimed, usage (and the corresponding revenues) could very likely decline because nobody wants that big 'SURPRISE' bill in the mail at the end of the month.

Also, how would this reduce costs? How would this improve a club's cashflow and their ability to budget and plan for the use of their equipment and other resources?

In the end, sledders would likely end up paying higher permit fees to finance the additional layers of administration needed to implement and manage something like this, not to enhance the riding experience.

[Fred Quimby]

I appreciate what the guys in the south to southwest say about paying for permits Vs. the riding season length. However, there is no replacement for the $hi# eating grin you get when the trails are primo and you are out for a good days ride. I will keep paying.

[Wildman]

making regional permits, is going backwards, in the mid 70's there where individual clubs all over the province. I can remember windshields where plastered with club stickers, so you could ride the trails. That is how the ofsc came about, there was 1 permit to travel the whole province with. The present system is the most reasonable, not a huge amount of enforcement needed, and the permit is dirt cheep. I think they should be more, but that is my opinion. It is no different than anything else in life, if you cant afford it, don't do it. I'd love to have boat, cant afford to have 1 and a sled, so no boat for me.

[Wildbill]

...pay by mile system?

Just what we don't need - transponders on sleds. Who wants to think about how much an extra hour or day of riding is going to cost them? If people are being nickle and dimed, usage (and the corresponding revenues) could very likely decline because nobody wants that big 'SURPRISE' bill in the mail at the end of the month.

Also, how would this reduce costs? How would this improve a club's cashflow and their ability to budget and plan for the use of their equipment and other resources?

In the end, sledders would likely end up paying higher permit fees to finance the additional layers of administration needed to implement and manage something like this, not to enhance the riding experience.

x2

[Av42medics]

...pay by mile system?

Just what we don't need - transponders on sleds. Who wants to think about how much an extra hour or day of riding is going to cost them? If people are being nickle and dimed, usage (and the corresponding revenues) could very likely decline because nobody wants that big 'SURPRISE' bill in the mail at the end of the month.

Also, how would this reduce costs? How would this improve a club's cashflow and their ability to budget and plan for the use of their equipment and other resources?

In the end, sledders would likely end up paying higher permit fees to finance the additional layers of administration needed to implement and manage something like this, not to enhance the riding experience.

If it maxed out at 250 dollars who cares? It not like your going to end up paying more.