revrnd Posted December 7, 2009 Share Posted December 7, 2009 I see on the District 2 map & OFSC Trail Guide that there's been a major reroute of TOP E thru the Old Hastings & Mazinaw clubs. It now goes north on the railbed from Ormsby Jct., east thru McArthur Mills & passes south of Denbigh. It crosses Hwy. 41 @ Ferguson Corners & rejoins the original route northeast of where MP 1007 connected. Hopefully all the new signage will be in place to keep confusion to a minimum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I'll Ride Anything Posted December 7, 2009 Share Posted December 7, 2009 Think that was pretty much in place last 1/2 of last season. Trail markings were confused as were many riders. Didn't miss that southern stretch of E south of Limerick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred Quimby Posted December 7, 2009 Share Posted December 7, 2009 I wish when clubs did re routes they would post suitable signage. I am by no means bashing any club, but they have to remember that a large percentage of riders may not be familiar with their local trails. One or two signs to mark a re route is not acceptable in many cases. Sometimes you need to post a very clear re route. That keeps people happy and coming back and shows club responsibility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
02Sled Posted December 7, 2009 Share Posted December 7, 2009 I wish when clubs did re routes they would post suitable signage. I am by no means bashing any club, but they have to remember that a large percentage of riders may not be familiar with their local trails. One or two signs to mark a re route is not acceptable in many cases. Sometimes you need to post a very clear re route. That keeps people happy and coming back and shows club responsibility. If you have been over the trails as they are your locals you don't need much signage but I know what you mean. Going through Bala last year there was a group of 8 of us plus some other people that got totally turned around. The trail in town heading out north had been moved and we didn't see much in the way of signs. We knew the old way and wasted a lot of time asking people where to get back onto the trail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Posted December 7, 2009 Share Posted December 7, 2009 but they have to remember that a large percentage of riders may not be familiar with their local trails. Agreed. Need to look at trail signs from a 'virgin's' perspective. Also agree that Bala has historically been tough to navigate (trailwise and through town). I know, I know... were to do I sign up (no pun intended) to be a volunteer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred Quimby Posted December 7, 2009 Share Posted December 7, 2009 I wish when clubs did re routes they would post suitable signage. I am by no means bashing any club, but they have to remember that a large percentage of riders may not be familiar with their local trails. One or two signs to mark a re route is not acceptable in many cases. Sometimes you need to post a very clear re route. That keeps people happy and coming back and shows club responsibility. If you have been over the trails as they are your locals you don't need much signage but I know what you mean. Going through Bala last year there was a group of 8 of us plus some other people that got totally turned around. The trail in town heading out north had been moved and we didn't see much in the way of signs. We knew the old way and wasted a lot of time asking people where to get back onto the trail. Preciseley what I was getting at. I know my local trails pretty well. Although I always carry maps and a GPS, I seldom look at the map when I ride locally. I have however come across people that were lost on a re route and totally confused and borderline panicked as it was getting dark and they were low on fuel. That can be pretty scarry! Sometimes you are just a stones throw off course and it seems like you are miles away from anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
revrnd Posted December 7, 2009 Author Share Posted December 7, 2009 Think that was pretty much in place last 1/2 of last season. Trail markings were confused as were many riders. Didn't miss that southern stretch of E south of Limerick. There was a reroute shown a year or so ago on 1 of the maps, but nothing was really changed. The section between the railbed & the forest access road east Wadsworth Lake definately wasn't conducive to making miles if you're travelling. Mind you the section of trail south of McArthur Mills isn't great either. I wonder if this reroute is due to no gas in the Hwy 41 area? Bro & I were wondering about gas over there when I figured the Moosehorn was closed. Now gas shouldn't be an issue for folks travelling thru the area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rampman Posted December 7, 2009 Share Posted December 7, 2009 I wish when clubs did re routes they would post suitable signage. I am by no means bashing any club, but they have to remember that a large percentage of riders may not be familiar with their local trails. One or two signs to mark a re route is not acceptable in many cases. Sometimes you need to post a very clear re route. That keeps people happy and coming back and shows club responsibility. WE do, After much discusion years ago, we order new signs that say CHANGE IN TRAIL mainly because alot of the locals try & go the old way that is closed for one reason or other, Landowner issuses or new owner or the last riders won't stay on trail. We found it lets the riders know a reroute is has been made. It helps with trail issuses & riders are not guessing where the trail goes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Posted December 7, 2009 Share Posted December 7, 2009 , we order new signs that say CHANGE IN TRAIL . Great idea. We often take 'usual' route, only to grind teeth halfway through.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred Quimby Posted December 8, 2009 Share Posted December 8, 2009 I wish when clubs did re routes they would post suitable signage. I am by no means bashing any club, but they have to remember that a large percentage of riders may not be familiar with their local trails. One or two signs to mark a re route is not acceptable in many cases. Sometimes you need to post a very clear re route. That keeps people happy and coming back and shows club responsibility. WE do, After much discusion years ago, we order new signs that say CHANGE IN TRAIL mainly because alot of the locals try & go the old way that is closed for one reason or other, Landowner issuses or new owner or the last riders won't stay on trail. We found it lets the riders know a reroute is has been made. It helps with trail issuses & riders are not guessing where the trail goes. That is great! Anybody read the article in OSM from the last issue (I think)? It spoke about the question of increased signage meaning increased liability issues. I believe they referenced that little signage was better in some cases and in some areas, no signage at all except stop signs??? That seems ludicrous to me! I would think that re routes, stop signs, trail closed, bridges, turns and routes would be essential to proper trail design. Other nice signs to see are "icy" sections, distances, downgrades and upslopes where visibility is or could be obscured. Now there is no need for things to look like the 401, but one would think that there is a level of responsibility with proper signage in place. Love the CHANGE IN TRAIL signs mentioned above. Good idea and it probably might keep some landowners from being too pissed off further if there was a clearly marked re route that previously ran through private property. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildman Posted December 8, 2009 Share Posted December 8, 2009 I wish when clubs did re routes they would post suitable signage. I am by no means bashing any club, but they have to remember that a large percentage of riders may not be familiar with their local trails. One or two signs to mark a re route is not acceptable in many cases. Sometimes you need to post a very clear re route. That keeps people happy and coming back and shows club responsibility. WE do, After much discusion years ago, we order new signs that say CHANGE IN TRAIL mainly because alot of the locals try & go the old way that is closed for one reason or other, Landowner issuses or new owner or the last riders won't stay on trail. We found it lets the riders know a reroute is has been made. It helps with trail issuses & riders are not guessing where the trail goes. That is great! Anybody read the article in OSM from the last issue (I think)? It spoke about the question of increased signage meaning increased liability issues. I believe they referenced that little signage was better in some cases and in some areas, no signage at all except stop signs??? That seems ludicrous to me! I would think that re routes, stop signs, trail closed, bridges, turns and routes would be essential to proper trail design. Other nice signs to see are "icy" sections, distances, downgrades and upslopes where visibility is or could be obscured. Now there is no need for things to look like the 401, but one would think that there is a level of responsibility with proper signage in place. Love the CHANGE IN TRAIL signs mentioned above. Good idea and it probably might keep some landowners from being too pissed off further if there was a clearly marked re route that previously ran through private property. I think is what you will find, by posting signs of warning, ie, icy section, corner, steep hill etc, someone in this messed up world is admitting there is an obstacle on the trail. When some idiot gets hurt because of their inability, they contact their lawyer, and that thief in turn sues the ofsc because they knew the trail wasn't safe. These are the same reasons the speed limit is 50k, if you can't negotiate the trail at 50k, you best park your junk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sledjunk Posted December 8, 2009 Share Posted December 8, 2009 I wish when clubs did re routes they would post suitable signage. I am by no means bashing any club, but they have to remember that a large percentage of riders may not be familiar with their local trails. One or two signs to mark a re route is not acceptable in many cases. Sometimes you need to post a very clear re route. That keeps people happy and coming back and shows club responsibility. WE do, After much discusion years ago, we order new signs that say CHANGE IN TRAIL mainly because alot of the locals try & go the old way that is closed for one reason or other, Landowner issuses or new owner or the last riders won't stay on trail. We found it lets the riders know a reroute is has been made. It helps with trail issuses & riders are not guessing where the trail goes. That is great! Anybody read the article in OSM from the last issue (I think)? It spoke about the question of increased signage meaning increased liability issues. I believe they referenced that little signage was better in some cases and in some areas, no signage at all except stop signs??? That seems ludicrous to me! I would think that re routes, stop signs, trail closed, bridges, turns and routes would be essential to proper trail design. Other nice signs to see are "icy" sections, distances, downgrades and upslopes where visibility is or could be obscured. Now there is no need for things to look like the 401, but one would think that there is a level of responsibility with proper signage in place. Love the CHANGE IN TRAIL signs mentioned above. Good idea and it probably might keep some landowners from being too pissed off further if there was a clearly marked re route that previously ran through private property. I think is what you will find, by posting signs of warning, ie, icy section, corner, steep hill etc, someone in this messed up world is admitting there is an obstacle on the trail. When some idiot gets hurt because of their inability, they contact their lawyer, and that thief in turn sues the ofsc because they knew the trail wasn't safe. These are the same reasons the speed limit is 50k, if you can't negotiate the trail at 50k, you best park your junk. The other side of this is also the case. You mark icy sections, steep hill, etc, then someone finds a new icy patch, which can happen anytime, crashes and then sues because the club marked dangerous sections and missed one. Case in point, a young lady was driving to school one morning, hit an icy patch and crashed causing her serious injuries. She successfully sued MTO because the salt truck had not been there to salt the section earlier. Whatever happened to driving to conditions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred Quimby Posted December 8, 2009 Share Posted December 8, 2009 I wish when clubs did re routes they would post suitable signage. I am by no means bashing any club, but they have to remember that a large percentage of riders may not be familiar with their local trails. One or two signs to mark a re route is not acceptable in many cases. Sometimes you need to post a very clear re route. That keeps people happy and coming back and shows club responsibility. WE do, After much discusion years ago, we order new signs that say CHANGE IN TRAIL mainly because alot of the locals try & go the old way that is closed for one reason or other, Landowner issuses or new owner or the last riders won't stay on trail. We found it lets the riders know a reroute is has been made. It helps with trail issuses & riders are not guessing where the trail goes. That is great! Anybody read the article in OSM from the last issue (I think)? It spoke about the question of increased signage meaning increased liability issues. I believe they referenced that little signage was better in some cases and in some areas, no signage at all except stop signs??? That seems ludicrous to me! I would think that re routes, stop signs, trail closed, bridges, turns and routes would be essential to proper trail design. Other nice signs to see are "icy" sections, distances, downgrades and upslopes where visibility is or could be obscured. Now there is no need for things to look like the 401, but one would think that there is a level of responsibility with proper signage in place. Love the CHANGE IN TRAIL signs mentioned above. Good idea and it probably might keep some landowners from being too pissed off further if there was a clearly marked re route that previously ran through private property. I think is what you will find, by posting signs of warning, ie, icy section, corner, steep hill etc, someone in this messed up world is admitting there is an obstacle on the trail. When some idiot gets hurt because of their inability, they contact their lawyer, and that thief in turn sues the ofsc because they knew the trail wasn't safe. These are the same reasons the speed limit is 50k, if you can't negotiate the trail at 50k, you best park your junk. The other side of this is also the case. You mark icy sections, steep hill, etc, then someone finds a new icy patch, which can happen anytime, crashes and then sues because the club marked dangerous sections and missed one. Case in point, a young lady was driving to school one morning, hit an icy patch and crashed causing her serious injuries. She successfully sued MTO because the salt truck had not been there to salt the section earlier. Whatever happened to driving to conditions? By knowingly not taking reasonable precautions to warn or effect repairs to a known hazard there IS a liability issue. If the hazard was NOT known then there is a limit on liability. Another case in point. In the city of Hamilton last year many people in the area around the Red Hill region sued the city of Hamilton quite successfully. The city and the region were well aware of drain issues and sewer problems, yet took no reasonable action to repair or warn of issue. The court found that this was gross negligence and awarded millions to those residents so affected. If the region et all had taken corrective issues and warned the residents of a problem there would not have been an award at all. This is why you often see in places such as Toronto, water main breaks and sinkholes. They "pretend" to not know about these issues and there is no documentation to support the issues (above board). However, they also know what percentage of sewers and water mains are liable to fail. They choose to pretend that all these "breaks" and sinkholes we hear about are "news to them". All in a game of risk management. They could not afford to fix or repair everything properly so, they fix things as they find them and claim that there was no prior knowledge of the issue. Pretty clear here: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlowTouringGuy Posted December 8, 2009 Share Posted December 8, 2009 It's tough being a snowmobile club. And tough being an association of snowmobile clubs. You're damned if you do and damned if you don't. What is the current status of the legislation to protect volunteers? It's not easy out there. And before we start complaining that the trail isn't open, give pause to consider all the Hoops a club has to jump through to reduce the possibility of actions against them. It's onerous and, given that the majority of club members are doing it out of love for the sport, it is blatantly unfairr. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred Quimby Posted December 8, 2009 Share Posted December 8, 2009 It's tough being a snowmobile club. And tough being an association of snowmobile clubs. You're damned if you do and damned if you don't. What is the current status of the legislation to protect volunteers? It's not easy out there. And before we start complaining that the trail isn't open, give pause to consider all the Hoops a club has to jump through to reduce the possibility of actions against them. It's onerous and, given that the majority of club members are doing it out of love for the sport, it is blatantly unfairr. Volunteerism is the backbone to many oragnizations. Without them, there would be a lot less of everything we enjoy. However, from legislation to legalities and everything in between, there are tighter pressures on organizations to run their operations as tight as a drum. Volunteers for many organizations have to be trained in WHIMIS, first aid/ CPR, have a criminal record search done, have a drivers license abstract, be trained fully and sign off on what training they receive....the list goes on. No wonder why people give up on volunteering anymore. I personally have given in excess of 12,000 hours of free time over the years to many community agencies and to tell you the truth, it get's really tiring jumping through hoops just to "lend a hand". It costs people money, can cause grief and all without any real protection yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I'll Ride Anything Posted December 9, 2009 Share Posted December 9, 2009 I'll advise about the re-route next time up ... for anyone still following the thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildbill Posted December 10, 2009 Share Posted December 10, 2009 It's tough being a snowmobile club. And tough being an association of snowmobile clubs. You're damned if you do and damned if you don't. What is the current status of the legislation to protect volunteers? It's not easy out there. And before we start complaining that the trail isn't open, give pause to consider all the Hoops a club has to jump through to reduce the possibility of actions against them. It's onerous and, given that the majority of club members are doing it out of love for the sport, it is blatantly unfairr. Amen mouse ! I just about leave everytime that I see the amount of responsability and risk that we take on as volunteers . I hope that one day our elected officials will take the idea and protect us like Quebec has protected thiers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Posted December 10, 2009 Share Posted December 10, 2009 What is the current status of the legislation to protect volunteers? Thanks for keeping this issue at the forefront. If I ever run into a politico, that will be the first question I ask (noticed the feds are going on a 6 week 'Holiday' siesta , but I digress). Signage - rumour is that the signs were changed to be 'less precise'. Apparently a trail rider interpreted the old 'twisty S' symbol the wrong way, and zigged when he should have zagged. That's why those signs are disappearing, to be replaced with with sharp hairpin corners only. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimrod Posted December 10, 2009 Share Posted December 10, 2009 The old E trail runs across my property just off the scootamata acess road just east of the municipal dump. All the E trail signage is still up and it looks like the OHSR fixed signage this year. Looks to me like they plan on leaving it the way it was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
revrnd Posted December 10, 2009 Author Share Posted December 10, 2009 Jerry w/ both maps showing the new reroute, they'd better get their act together. Imagine what touring sledders new to the area will think when they approach either end of the reroute? What do we follow? The signs or the maps? I checked their website & they have the 2010 District 2 map posted. So I guess they haven't had a chance to change the signs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I'll Ride Anything Posted December 15, 2009 Share Posted December 15, 2009 Looks like Top E is staying with the old southern route. The re-route mac Mills way is no go this season again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
revrnd Posted December 15, 2009 Author Share Posted December 15, 2009 Looks like Top E is staying with the old southern route. The re-route mac Mills way is no go this season again. "Edited for language" I wonder if the Old Hastings and/or OFSC websites will have a note for folks to dig up their 2009 trail maps? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred Quimby Posted December 15, 2009 Share Posted December 15, 2009 Good reason to stay away from that area. I hate it when there are differences tha drastic. I plan a ride by looking at maps, but as many do, I follow the signs on the trail when I get out there. Geez. cmon' guys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
revrnd Posted December 15, 2009 Author Share Posted December 15, 2009 I emailed the District 2 office last night after the above posts. They replied this morning & the reroute IS going ahead. They are currently working on the signage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldPro Posted December 15, 2009 Share Posted December 15, 2009 Odd, 'new' E trail signs were up last year then covered over. Still covered over this year. Brand new trailside large map printed on hardboard on B106E + clubhouse (L,Amble) junction shows old south E trail. This map is new this season put up by the club. At least the new outhouse beside it knows why its there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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