Online pass purchase - OUCH the fees!

[Wildbill]

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Fred, that's an interesting concept. Any idea what the "readers" would go for? I wonder if they could be rented for the season then turned back in May? That way the OFSC/SAVE wouldn't be stuck w/ obsolete units the next season(s).

I am sure these readers could be leased. Pretty much anything can be leased or rented. You would know right away if anybody had a stolen pass! Any specific info could be loaded onto the database and then in turn updated on a routine basis (such as when the unit was charged up). Insurance info, ownership, license, make, model would all show up when the pass was scanned.

By routine download, there is no need for a satellite or cellular signal. These units could operate independent of that. Many are built to military specs and are substantial and designed for use on the road...or trail as it might be.

Perhaps a thing to come down the road. For today, let's ride! Or get ready to. I am headed up to Haliburton tomorrow to plow the driveway at the cottage. Over 90-100cm's in Minden which is less than 20 minutes from my doorstep.

And where does the money for this come from ? I know cut back the amount of grooming ! NOT

I never said this was needed today! I was pretty clear when I said "perhaps a thing to come down the road". Anywhoo, the money as with everything else would come from permit fees. I would never advocate cutting back on grooming time. In reality, there would be very few who would look at every line of expenditures on the OFSC budget. So, somewhere it could be absorbed in and most would be none the wiser that this operational line was there. It boils down to the cost of doing business.

Much like the government absorbs our taxes into wastefull unneccasary expenses . It is not needed . A simple phone call will get you a pass in the mail . No line item needed .

[Snowberg]

Wildbill makes good points. There's no way for someone to easily print and attach a permit to their sled and I for one don't want to have to stop, dig out paperwork, and wait for some one to give me the OK to continue. I now understand the need for security and UPS or registered mail seems to offer that, so you tack on a $5 shipping fee. Yes we should pay for that in addition to the permit. But as far as stuffing envelopes by volunteers and paying for web site that is already there, well, it just doesn't seem right to have to pay more for something that is already paid for and in existence. It doesn't cost OFSC any more to sell a permit than it does a club, and I've never been charged by a club to mail me my permit. Isn't the driving goal here to make it easier to, and increase permit sales thus helping to relieve the burden of expenses. I would be willing to bet that there are hundreds of riders that would buy permits if it was quick and easy. Do you think that will happen if the average Joe thinks he is once again getting gouged....this sure seems to a long thread which tells me that it's an important one. I think it's everyone's responsibility to consider this issue, try to come up with new ideas, make suggestions, and have responsible discussions and try and come up with a good solution.......just one riders thoughts

Each club has contacts listed on the OFSC website contact them directly and buy a permit from a volunteer when you by from the OFSC site a paid staff member does it.

That's partially my point OFSC already has the staff but they want more money for something that they already have in place. When my customers want paperwork mailed to them I don't charge them extra to collect the papers, put them in an envelope, and drop them in the mail. I do what ever I can because I want there return business........

[Wildbill]

Wildbill makes good points. There's no way for someone to easily print and attach a permit to their sled and I for one don't want to have to stop, dig out paperwork, and wait for some one to give me the OK to continue. I now understand the need for security and UPS or registered mail seems to offer that, so you tack on a $5 shipping fee. Yes we should pay for that in addition to the permit. But as far as stuffing envelopes by volunteers and paying for web site that is already there, well, it just doesn't seem right to have to pay more for something that is already paid for and in existence. It doesn't cost OFSC any more to sell a permit than it does a club, and I've never been charged by a club to mail me my permit. Isn't the driving goal here to make it easier to, and increase permit sales thus helping to relieve the burden of expenses. I would be willing to bet that there are hundreds of riders that would buy permits if it was quick and easy. Do you think that will happen if the average Joe thinks he is once again getting gouged....this sure seems to a long thread which tells me that it's an important one. I think it's everyone's responsibility to consider this issue, try to come up with new ideas, make suggestions, and have responsible discussions and try and come up with a good solution.......just one riders thoughts

Each club has contacts listed on the OFSC website contact them directly and buy a permit from a volunteer when you by from the OFSC site a paid staff member does it.

That's partially my point OFSC already has the staff but they want more money for something that they already have in place. When my customers want paperwork mailed to them I don't charge them extra to collect the papers, put them in an envelope, and drop them in the mail. I do what ever I can because I want there return business........

But the OFSC is handling this in house with employees . The way for the OFSC to accomplish this would be to refer the sales to the clubs. The process is heavily dictated by the MTO and therefore is top heavy .

[Fred Quimby]

Wildbill makes good points. There's no way for someone to easily print and attach a permit to their sled and I for one don't want to have to stop, dig out paperwork, and wait for some one to give me the OK to continue. I now understand the need for security and UPS or registered mail seems to offer that, so you tack on a $5 shipping fee. Yes we should pay for that in addition to the permit. But as far as stuffing envelopes by volunteers and paying for web site that is already there, well, it just doesn't seem right to have to pay more for something that is already paid for and in existence. It doesn't cost OFSC any more to sell a permit than it does a club, and I've never been charged by a club to mail me my permit. Isn't the driving goal here to make it easier to, and increase permit sales thus helping to relieve the burden of expenses. I would be willing to bet that there are hundreds of riders that would buy permits if it was quick and easy. Do you think that will happen if the average Joe thinks he is once again getting gouged....this sure seems to a long thread which tells me that it's an important one. I think it's everyone's responsibility to consider this issue, try to come up with new ideas, make suggestions, and have responsible discussions and try and come up with a good solution.......just one riders thoughts

Each club has contacts listed on the OFSC website contact them directly and buy a permit from a volunteer when you by from the OFSC site a paid staff member does it.

That's partially my point OFSC already has the staff but they want more money for something that they already have in place. When my customers want paperwork mailed to them I don't charge them extra to collect the papers, put them in an envelope, and drop them in the mail. I do what ever I can because I want there return business........

But the OFSC is handling this in house with employees . The way for the OFSC to accomplish this would be to refer the sales to the clubs. The process is heavily dictated by the MTO and therefore is top heavy .

What in Government isn't "top heavy"? There is a layer or more of Government involvement in every aspect of life. Additional fees for everything we do or touch is here to stay. Remember income tax and tax in general was only supposed to be a wartime thing? Yeah right. Death and taxes my friend.

[Classic]

The OFSC is not handling this in house. They do not have the staff for it. Its handled by an outside clearing house.

[Wildbill]

The OFSC is not handling this in house. They do not have the staff for it. Its handled by an outside clearing house.

That is news to me and explains the fees . It is a shame that the MTO dis not allow clubs and districts to have online sales instead of forcing this issue.

[02Sled]

I skipped a few of the pages so what I post here may be redundant.

It was mentioned about printing our own tickets. Yes a lot of us have probably done this for concert or sporting events in the past. When you get to the venue, the staff there has a bar code reader than scans the bar code on your page. If the "ticket" is legit, you're on your way to your seat. I've never been behind anyone that has had their "ticket" rejected.

Now transferring this idea to trail permits, the sled info would have to be "embedded" in the bar code. OK you enter all the pertinent info online & pay your fee. Then you have to get your printed permit laminated. Then the next question, do I just tape this to my sled?

W/o any fancy schmancy security features (holograms etc), you wouldn't need specialized software for printing like was mentioned early in the thread.

That's the easy part, now come the expensive part, All STOP & SAVE teams would have to be equipped w/ bar code readers. Also, how effective would this system be out in the "field"? How would the readers access the MTO/OFSC database? Cellular or satellite? We know that a big portion of the trail system had no cell service, so I guess you'd have to go w/ a sat' based system.

Anyone else see any other drawbacks to the "print your own" idea.

I think expanding the online system for the convenience of a few isn't a cost effective way to sell permits.

I buy stuff online, but my permits aren't 1 of them. I usually call the club or buy from 1 of their vendors.

The technology is there without cell/ or satellite service. Updated information can be loaded onto a handheld slave unit, and then when out on the trail, a sled could be scanned and checked. Not that this is what I think is the best tech alternative, but it can be done, without satellite signals or cellula coverage. All you need to do is update the slave with the new data nightly or whenever suitable. Iphones have an app that scans barcodes and compares prices.

The technology may be there but at a significant price. Let's look at this based on a cost, benefit and logistics analysis. You can buy a cheap barcode scanner that will not stand the test of time. A decent mobile scanner is about $1500.00 U.S. At least one that will survive bouncing around in the trunk of a sled. Then you have to have an awful lot of them for all the trail patrol folks and the OPP. Then you would probably want a maintenance contract because they do and will fail. 17 districts X 5 clubs per distirict X 3 scanners per club $382,500.00. The return on investment... let's see... people can print their own permits (more convenient) if you have a printer. But then you could simply make multiple copies and put them on multiple sleds. Then when they are checking permits on the trail the rider actually have to come to a complete stop so that the permit can be scanned (inconvenient) and the make model and serial number of the sled compared with the scanned information from the bar code. That way you can be sure the printed piece of paper belongs to that sled. Then if the print quality is poor and you can't scan the barcode wait while the barcode is entered into the hand held device manually. Somehow I would rather see the money put into the trails, the checking of permits remain easy and life continues as is.

[revrnd]

The technology may be there but at a significant price. Let's look at this based on a cost, benefit and logistics analysis. You can buy a cheap barcode scanner that will not stand the test of time. A decent mobile scanner is about $1500.00 U.S. At least one that will survive bouncing around in the trunk of a sled. Then you have to have an awful lot of them for all the trail patrol folks and the OPP. Then you would probably want a maintenance contract because they do and will fail. 17 districts X 5 clubs per distirict X 3 scanners per club $382,500.00. The return on investment... let's see... people can print their own permits (more convenient) if you have a printer. But then you could simply make multiple copies and put them on multiple sleds. Then when they are checking permits on the trail the rider actually have to come to a complete stop so that the permit can be scanned (inconvenient) and the make model and serial number of the sled compared with the scanned information from the bar code. That way you can be sure the printed piece of paper belongs to that sled. Then if the print quality is poor and you can't scan the barcode wait while the barcode is entered into the hand held device manually. Somehow I would rather see the money put into the trails, the checking of permits remain easy and life continues as is.

Boy are you ever a stick in the mud.

JK

Seems to be a lot of outlay for the convenience of a few folks.

[FreezerBurnt]

Fred, that's an interesting concept. Any idea what the "readers" would go for? I wonder if they could be rented for the season then turned back in May? That way the OFSC/SAVE wouldn't be stuck w/ obsolete units the next season(s).

a couple thousand, I used a reader(scanner) this past summer when on contract with Hydro, the problem would be battery life IMO when its cold, our batteries would last 5-6hrs at most with constant use that is in Summer

BUT lets say after each permit with bar code is sold it enters a database and each time you are back from patrol you plug back into port which is connected to central database therefore you have up to date info all the time

This time of the yr I read utility meters and those hand helds are $8-10,000 each, would not be cost effective IMO

[02Sled]

Fred, that's an interesting concept. Any idea what the "readers" would go for? I wonder if they could be rented for the season then turned back in May? That way the OFSC/SAVE wouldn't be stuck w/ obsolete units the next season(s).

a couple thousand, I used a reader(scanner) this past summer when on contract with Hydro, the problem would be battery life IMO when its cold, our batteries would last 5-6hrs at most with constant use that is in Summer

BUT lets say after each permit with bar code is sold it enters a database and each time you are back from patrol you plug back into port which is connected to central database therefore you have up to date info all the time

This time of the yr I read utility meters and those hand helds are $8-10,000 each, would not be cost effective IMO

I'll bet they are RF transmitters on line real time to the systems in the backgroung. Love technology but it sure ain't cheap.

[Fred Quimby]

Fred, that's an interesting concept. Any idea what the "readers" would go for? I wonder if they could be rented for the season then turned back in May? That way the OFSC/SAVE wouldn't be stuck w/ obsolete units the next season(s).

a couple thousand, I used a reader(scanner) this past summer when on contract with Hydro, the problem would be battery life IMO when its cold, our batteries would last 5-6hrs at most with constant use that is in Summer

BUT lets say after each permit with bar code is sold it enters a database and each time you are back from patrol you plug back into port which is connected to central database therefore you have up to date info all the time

This time of the yr I read utility meters and those hand helds are $8-10,000 each, would not be cost effective IMO

There are many types of scanners out there. Some are cheap and some are very pricey. It depends on what you want the scanner to do, it's logging abilities, memory file size, and useage. They would not have to be turned on all the time, just when you wanted to scan a pass. No, technology ain't cheap, but what was that figure (stolen passes) that somebody is running around with?

UPS barcodes turned 45 years old this year (or something like that), and they are used on on everything we own or touch. Bar codes can carry all the information one could think of. It could even help return a stolen sled and catch the SOB that stole it in the first place. Police cruisers can scan your DL and have all your info at the drop of a hat. The OFSC could (as mentioned) lease these through a capitol leasing company such as G.E. who lease anything from oil rigs to office printers!

I don't want to see any current money dropped from grooming or anything trail related. However, the OFSC should start planning for the future and keeping in pace.

[revrnd]

For the hard core techies, there was a segment on the news last week about cameras mounted on the roofs of police cruisers. They can read the licence plate of oncoming vehicles or vehicles being followed. The camera's info goes into the modat & if that plate/vehicle has "issues" the officer is notified.

[Domino]

For the hard core techies, there was a segment on the news last week about cameras mounted on the roofs of police cruisers. They can read the licence plate of oncoming vehicles or vehicles being followed. The camera's info goes into the modat & if that plate/vehicle has "issues" the officer is notified.

Toronto has them already. I think it was OPP that were looking at getting them also. It was in the news in the last week.

[revrnd]

Toronto has them already. I think it was OPP that were looking at getting them also. It was in the news in the last week.

That was the segment that I saw, but I couldn't remember if it was the Metros or OPP they were talking to.

[02Sled]

Toronto has them already. I think it was OPP that were looking at getting them also. It was in the news in the last week.

That was the segment that I saw, but I couldn't remember if it was the Metros or OPP they were talking to.

I just love technology. OCR Optical Character Recognition is great which is what is picking up the licence plates.I know of a parking garage that uses it. If you are authorized you drive up and the gate opens as you go in. If for some reason you are driving another car or your plate is unreadable you have to stop at the entry point and scan in your access card as a manual bypass to the automation.