skidooboy Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 just a reminder for buyers to help sell a few more permits to get more grooming funds for the northern clubs. some of these towns have small populations and groom 300+ miles of trails (or more). these towns losts there largest forms of revenue, lumber mills. they are floundering and need the commerce sledding brings to the town. the only other businesses other than hotels, gas and food is, a small mining operations. the canadian govt put a stop to pay pal type selling for trail permits stating it was some sort of privacy violation for the clubs to use that type of sales tool. so i am just trying to get the word out to help the clubs. i am not getting anything from this at all. i am doing this to help the communities. nothing more, nothing less. buy before the dec 1st deadline and beat the price increase. 200.00 cnd funds per permit. us funds will be prevailing exchange rate which is hovering right around 7-8% right now. approx 185.00 usd per permit. i know the ofsc slogan of buy where you ride is a great feature, all i am asking is to spread the wealth to very deserving communities in the northern region. especially if you buy multiple permits, buy a local or where you ride first, then buy one or as many as you can from one of the northern communities of dubreuilville wawa white river hornepayne chapleau manitouwadge longlac greenstone area ect.... just a thought. trying to help our smaller neighbors out. thank you for your time and consideration. here's to a great sledding season for us all. ski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlowTouringGuy Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 Thanks Ski ! Folks, if you're buying more than one permit, Ski has a great idea here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildbill Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 Just a point of fact it was the Ontario Gov't not the Canadian Gov't that made the clubs remove the online sales in favour of one centralized OFSC online permit sales site . This has been slow to get going and is supposed to be online befor Oct 31st at last word. Once this is going you will be able buy a permit online for any club in Ontario. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UsedtoSkidoo Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 Its an archaic system that penalises the low population centres and rewards the high population centres. WHen in fact the majority of good riding area's are reversed. It should be changed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skidooboy Posted October 5, 2009 Author Share Posted October 5, 2009 do you know what district or club you ride with? good, but, others do not, and wont know how to navigate district lists. many out of the area people do not. and they will choose a large town with a familiar name. and face it... larger towns have more permits sales from population and tourism. all this post is about is, spreading the permit sales. the online ofsc feature maybe a great idea at this time but, we havent seen the model yet. and due to the date of starting, the clubs will be given a month (or less) to use the ofsc new system (and you know there will be problems). some of these clubs already had online sales up and running and they worked great. dubreuilville is and was the easiest and fastest permit purchase i ever did. went online, filled my info in, hit paypal pay, my permit was to me in the states in 3-4 days. that is unheard of for permit sales. heck one time, i had to ride my sled in season to an interior town to get my permit from the snowmobile club that i was volunteering for. this was in february, i bought the permit preseason before dec 1st. i dont understand why they didnt leave the clubs the options to keep selling the way they did AND add this option. that would make sense. and for the record, some of these clubs sell less than 50 total permits all season. so, they do need the funding help matrix or no matrix. ski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Groomer Guy Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 Well Said Ski< Could Of said it better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skidooer Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 do you know what district or club you ride with? As far as I am concerned I ride within the OFSC trail network. I do happen to know which clubs and districts I ride in. But I should not have to concern myself with those matters. That is the whole reason for the OFSC umbrella. The problem with "buy where you ride" is that a single ride will take you through five or six clubs, easily. If I head in a different direction the next day, that's another five or six clubs. Which of those clubs deserves my money most? They are all of equal importance as far as my routing is concerned. For the record, I try to spread my money around the clubs I ride the most. But it is not very efficient means of getting the money into the right hands. Perhaps I should have the option of giving $17 ($17 * 12 = $204 =~ the cost of a permit) to each of the clubs I ride regularly? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nutter Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 All these ideas are great, but buying where you ride the most, is the best way to distribute permit money within the OFSC. Deviating from that, chances are we could really screw up things, and possibly lose trails and/or the quality of the trails that see the most traffic. Take that into account and we will lose sledders all together, if they can't ride close to home more often. Thus leading to a loss of over all sledders heading north a few times a year to spend their money in the comunities that really need it. While not perfect the matrix does a pretty good job of providing transfer payments to those districts with short falls. As shown here ... All this information is readly available from your local club, you just have to take the time to look. ( I believe there was some small adjustments made to the 09/10 season numbers after this chart was put togther) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildbill Posted October 6, 2009 Share Posted October 6, 2009 Clubs are still allowed to have a printable form that you can fax back to them . Welcome to the eighties courtesy of mcsquinty . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkiDooStu Posted October 6, 2009 Share Posted October 6, 2009 you'd think an intelligent way for the OFSC to operate would be to distribute total funds based on need. Of course, the clubs that make more money than they need each year might be upset about this. I used to buy my permit from my local club.. My club donates money to the easter seals every year. This, obviously is a noble thing to do, however one that I do not agree with. I don't buy my permit to give money to charity. i do that on the side. I want my permit dollars to go to snowmobiling exclusively. That is why i buy from South Seguin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Domino Posted October 6, 2009 Share Posted October 6, 2009 you'd think an intelligent way for the OFSC to operate would be to distribute total funds based on need.Of course, the clubs that make more money than they need each year might be upset about this. I used to buy my permit from my local club.. My club donates money to the easter seals every year. This, obviously is a noble thing to do, however one that I do not agree with. I don't buy my permit to give money to charity. i do that on the side. I want my permit dollars to go to snowmobiling exclusively. That is why i buy from South Seguin. Good Point. I would have thought that extra funds would effect next years OFSC shared revenue math, so the club would need to keep it. Clubs should not be donating money unless it was raised with a club event specifically to support a charity. IMO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nutter Posted October 6, 2009 Share Posted October 6, 2009 The matrix is based on operational needs, those numbers posted in the chart weren't just pulled from a hat, you'll notice the districts that sell the least amount of permits recieve the loins share of the equalization payments. Grooming hours x trail permits sold x miles of trail = matrix points (in a nut shell) dictate how much of a permit share each club keeps, and how much of a district equalization payment is recieved by each club. Hence the importance of buying where you ride most to gage traffic stats, again while not perfect, I have yet to hear any other ideas for distribution that are as equal of a system as what we have now. And as it's always been the OFSC is always open to suggestions that may prove to better the current system of fund distribution, and those suggestions would be voted on by all the clubs across the province, if brought forward as a motion to to amend the existing or introduce another matrix system. As for clubs using permit money to donate to charities, this is something that is to be determend by the clubs membership, by vote. Hence the need for people to go to meetings once in a while, of course along with a host of other involvments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Domino Posted October 6, 2009 Share Posted October 6, 2009 The matrix is based on operational needs, those numbers posted in the chart weren't just pulled from a hat, you'll notice the districts that sell the least amount of permits recieve the loins share of the equalization payments. Grooming hours x trail permits sold x miles of trail = matrix points (in a nut shell) dictate how much of a permit share each club keeps, and how much of a district equalization payment is recieved by each club. Hence the importance of buying where you ride most to gage traffic stats, again while not perfect, I have yet to hear any other ideas for distribution that are as equal of a system as what we have now. And as it's always been the OFSC is always open to suggestions that may prove to better the current system of fund distribution, and those suggestions would be voted on by all the clubs across the province, if brought forward as a motion to to amend the existing or introduce another matrix system. As for clubs using permit money to donate to charities, this is something that is to be determend by the clubs membership, by vote. Hence the need for people to go to meetings once in a while, of course along with a host of other involvments. Do you think that a club should be donating permit dollars when other clubs are coming up short? The distribution is complicated, but the OFSC's goal is to work together as a whole for the betterment of snowmiling in Ontario. I think that clubs raising money (not permit $) for charity is great! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nutter Posted October 6, 2009 Share Posted October 6, 2009 The matrix is based on operational needs, those numbers posted in the chart weren't just pulled from a hat, you'll notice the districts that sell the least amount of permits recieve the loins share of the equalization payments. Grooming hours x trail permits sold x miles of trail = matrix points (in a nut shell) dictate how much of a permit share each club keeps, and how much of a district equalization payment is recieved by each club. Hence the importance of buying where you ride most to gage traffic stats, again while not perfect, I have yet to hear any other ideas for distribution that are as equal of a system as what we have now. And as it's always been the OFSC is always open to suggestions that may prove to better the current system of fund distribution, and those suggestions would be voted on by all the clubs across the province, if brought forward as a motion to to amend the existing or introduce another matrix system. As for clubs using permit money to donate to charities, this is something that is to be determend by the clubs membership, by vote. Hence the need for people to go to meetings once in a while, of course along with a host of other involvments. Do you think that a club should be donating permit dollars when other clubs are coming up short? The distribution is complicated, but the OFSC's goal is to work together as a whole for the betterment of snowmiling in Ontario. I think that clubs raising money (not permit $) for charity is great! Whether I or anyone else agrees or not Dom, what each club does with their share of permit dollars we have no say over, unless we are members and are willing to take the time to help run that club, they are their own corp, with their own members to vote on that. If we the other clubs as the OFSC, try to micro manage how each club spends their permit revenue anymore then we do now (including MTO and Rev Can aduits and non proffit guidlines)... we all know how well that'll go over :poke: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UsedtoSkidoo Posted October 6, 2009 Share Posted October 6, 2009 No offense but in essence the OFSC is a charity. Its a non profit organisation. So why shouldnt all the money raised go towards our trail system. Especially when our northern clubs are in such dire straights. The odd can of soup is different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Domino Posted October 6, 2009 Share Posted October 6, 2009 No offense but in essence the OFSC is a charity. Its a non profit organisation. So why shouldnt all the money raised go towards our trail system.Especially when our northern clubs are in such dire straights. The odd can of soup is different. So should a club with extra funds to dispose of send them to a struggling economy club like Dubreuilville? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nutter Posted October 6, 2009 Share Posted October 6, 2009 No offense but in essence the OFSC is a charity. Its a non profit organisation. So why shouldnt all the money raised go towards our trail system.Especially when our northern clubs are in such dire straights. The odd can of soup is different. Actually it's not a charity at all, it's a non profit user pay system, governed by it's volunteer members. You have to look at the chart and ask yourself why are those northern clubs in dire straights, when they recieve the same amount of money per trail mile based on grooming hours and permit sales ? Will taking more money from the south which see's huge huge numbers of riders 7 days a week, change this and just create an operations cost issue in the south ? Now with that said, there definatly is a local permit sales issue in the north, be it local economies, or just a large feeling of grandfathered rights to ride without a permit, and how much they are policed/enforced. I know I and many others who ride up north do nothing but brag how great it is to go mile after endless mile for days on end, and see less sleds then it takes two hands to count, and in the same breath shake our heads that half of those we did see have no permit We want to have those trails to ride on, so do we have to fund this .. certainly yes by all means. But do we fund this at the expense of southern trails which are the bread and butter that feeds that funding pool, which supports the north to the tune of a very large amount of dollars. IMO the biggest mistake made as of late, was the majority vote on each club keeping the $20 permit increase and it not going back into the matrix, my club my club my club is all that vote was, there was zero provincial thinking in that vote, but hey we all want a democratic grass roots run organisation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nutter Posted October 6, 2009 Share Posted October 6, 2009 No offense but in essence the OFSC is a charity. Its a non profit organisation. So why shouldnt all the money raised go towards our trail system.Especially when our northern clubs are in such dire straights. The odd can of soup is different. So should a club with extra funds to dispose of send them to a struggling economy club like Dubreuilville? Who or what decides what is "extra funds" other then the matrix it's self ? I can garantee you wont find a club in the province willing to dig deeper to fund anything outside of their own trail system. And with us already running the OFSC with an annual $5 mil deficit, balanced through grants taken from the $200 + mil we inject into the provincial federal tax pool, it's clear we are running a system that may need cutting back, but where do we cut back, busy southern bread and butter trails, that fund themselves and the north ? It's a pickel no doubt, hopefully we see an increase of new volunteers with some fresh new ideas, that can help solve these issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UsedtoSkidoo Posted October 6, 2009 Share Posted October 6, 2009 No offense but in essence the OFSC is a charity. Its a non profit organisation. So why shouldnt all the money raised go towards our trail system.Especially when our northern clubs are in such dire straights. The odd can of soup is different. So should a club with extra funds to dispose of send them to a struggling economy club like Dubreuilville? Yes. If its a non-profit organisation it essentially has to. When your a non-prof organisation you cannot run with a postive cash flow. You can have a reserve fund but no money in the bank for more than one year. Until the OFSC is run as a large single entity you will never have a positive situation in all of our area's. Because, lets face it, Ontario is way too large and too diverse in terms of population and economic distribution. That leaves the northern clubs who are arguably the more important ones at a disadvantage. When the monies could be taken in as one and then all area's run as a large single entity. Possibly with a larger non-volunteer workforce. (Take it easy WB and Nutter.......its just an idea!) This would obviously raise the price of trail passes(Which are insanely cheap anyway.) and increase our monetary investment into the sport! Now lets just think about this for a minute. Lets say for arguments sake we up the price to $500 a year (Still cheap in my mind) we have now created jobs and taken the volunteers out of the equation. Once we created jobs and increased the dollars invested into the trails. Lodges, restaurants and repair shops will have some more cash or people will open more of these needed businesses in northern area's. The trails will also be less of a concern and more of business. What this will accomplish is more dollars into our sport creating a stronger and more sustainable organisation. Will create more jobs, more dollars into the economy and a perpetuate the cycle for younger generations. This will all start with an increase of our initial investment into the trail system and bring back what we put in tenfold. I for one would rather pay an additional two fifty for the year and guarantee someone from the North a job. I would do that in a heartbeat! My 2 cents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UsedtoSkidoo Posted October 6, 2009 Share Posted October 6, 2009 The ofsc is too large and too important to be a grass roots system.............its time has come. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nutter Posted October 6, 2009 Share Posted October 6, 2009 The ofsc is too large and too important to be a grass roots system.............its time has come. I'll tell a what UTS, you tell your voluteer club members first that they no longer control the destiny of the club they run, then come tell mine ... cause I'll be runing fast as the dust will never settle on that one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nutter Posted October 6, 2009 Share Posted October 6, 2009 Yes. If its a non-profit organisation it essentially has to. When your a non-prof organisation you cannot run with a postive cash flow. You can have a reserve fund but no money in the bank for more than one year. Until the OFSC is run as a large single entity you will never have a positive situation in all of our area's. Because, lets face it, Ontario is way too large and too diverse in terms of population and economic distribution. That leaves the northern clubs who are arguably the more important ones at a disadvantage. When the monies could be taken in as one and then all area's run as a large single entity. Possibly with a larger non-volunteer workforce. (Take it easy WB and Nutter.......its just an idea!) This would obviously raise the price of trail passes(Which are insanely cheap anyway.) and increase our monetary investment into the sport! Now lets just think about this for a minute. Lets say for arguments sake we up the price to $500 a year (Still cheap in my mind) we have now created jobs and taken the volunteers out of the equation. Once we created jobs and increased the dollars invested into the trails. Lodges, restaurants and repair shops will have some more cash or people will open more of these needed businesses in northern area's. The trails will also be less of a concern and more of business. What this will accomplish is more dollars into our sport creating a stronger and more sustainable organisation. Will create more jobs, more dollars into the economy and a perpetuate the cycle for younger generations. This will all start with an increase of our initial investment into the trail system and bring back what we put in tenfold. I for one would rather pay an additional two fifty for the year and guarantee someone from the North a job. I would do that in a heartbeat! My 2 cents. Shesh ..... and I'm worried about how the $20 increase will effect permit sales Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UsedtoSkidoo Posted October 6, 2009 Share Posted October 6, 2009 The ofsc is too large and too important to be a grass roots system.............its time has come. I'll tell a what UTS, you tell your voluteer club members first that they no longer control the destiny of the club they run, then come tell mine ... cause I'll be runing fast as the dust will never settle on that one. What about if the OFSC offered some of them jobs. Would they complain then? When Johnny who has work now can come into their restaurant more now because he has cash in their pocket? Ask them to let the dust settle on that! Ultimately, why would it matter if the volunteers controlled the destiny of the club? Why does it matter. If the club exists and is part of a better more symbiotic organisation. Volunteers are needed more when its a grass roots situtation. It doesnt mean that they arent needed in a large unified entity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UsedtoSkidoo Posted October 6, 2009 Share Posted October 6, 2009 Yes. If its a non-profit organisation it essentially has to. When your a non-prof organisation you cannot run with a postive cash flow. You can have a reserve fund but no money in the bank for more than one year. Until the OFSC is run as a large single entity you will never have a positive situation in all of our area's. Because, lets face it, Ontario is way too large and too diverse in terms of population and economic distribution. That leaves the northern clubs who are arguably the more important ones at a disadvantage. When the monies could be taken in as one and then all area's run as a large single entity. Possibly with a larger non-volunteer workforce. (Take it easy WB and Nutter.......its just an idea!) This would obviously raise the price of trail passes(Which are insanely cheap anyway.) and increase our monetary investment into the sport! Now lets just think about this for a minute. Lets say for arguments sake we up the price to $500 a year (Still cheap in my mind) we have now created jobs and taken the volunteers out of the equation. Once we created jobs and increased the dollars invested into the trails. Lodges, restaurants and repair shops will have some more cash or people will open more of these needed businesses in northern area's. The trails will also be less of a concern and more of business. What this will accomplish is more dollars into our sport creating a stronger and more sustainable organisation. Will create more jobs, more dollars into the economy and a perpetuate the cycle for younger generations. This will all start with an increase of our initial investment into the trail system and bring back what we put in tenfold. I for one would rather pay an additional two fifty for the year and guarantee someone from the North a job. I would do that in a heartbeat! My 2 cents. Shesh ..... and I'm worried about how the $20 increase will effect permit sales The guy that complains about 250 dollar increase on trails should have his head examined. Thats 20 bucks a month. 20!!!!! Big freaking deal. Cable costs 50 plus a month. A case of beer is over 40.00 (depending) Timmies one large regular. ($1.52 x30x12=547.20 per year) A hotel room in Ontario anywhere shy of $115.00 per night. Add in a decent meal at $20.00 per entree A tank of gas in a modern V8 pickup =$100.00. (we dont need V8"s to tow two sleds) etc. etc. etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mossy Posted October 6, 2009 Share Posted October 6, 2009 My permits are purchaced and in the mail!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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