100,000 Trail Passes!

[trailblazer]

LMAO. quit stirring the pot Nutter.

What gets me is why do people think they have the right to know the stats of the OFSC?

I and several others over the years have spent a lot if time trying to educate people on the workings of the OFSC and each snowmobile club. We've gone out of our way to answer questions about the inner workings of the OFSC.

After doing this for several years, I've seen a pattern repeat itself over and over, year after year.

There are people that think the OFSC and clubs must be totally transparent simply because they gave their hard earned dollars to PURCHASE their trail permit. I'd love to see these people go to their bank, grocery store, beer store, LCBO, snowmobile dealer, car/truck dealership, clothing/hardware/appliance store, etc. (you get my point) and demand to see their financial records simply because they give their hard earned dollars to them. They'll be told to go pound salt. And if these people get the answers they're looking for, they'll still not be satisfied. It's like a dog chasing it's tail. They get on the internet and keep asking or demanding answers to questions that really mean squat in the end. They'll never be satisfied with the answers because they don't trust the source of the information. So if you fit into this group, get involved with your club. Educate yourself on what it takes to build the best and largest trail system in the world. Then volunteer for various positions within your club. Then the district. Then the various committees. Then the Governor for your district. Then Vice-President and finally President of the OFSC. By the way, all of these positions are all volunteer positions. They don't get paid. Some clubs/associations are fortunate enough to sell enough permits to be able to pay their groomer operators. Everyone and every other duty or position is done on a volunteer basis. At the OFSC office, there is work that needs to be done on a full time basis. People have been hired and are paid an industry competitive wage and benefits to perform this work. Trust me they earn every dollar they earn. Don't forget, the OFSC is a business. A non-profit business which means that Revenue Canada scrutinizes our expenditures very closely.

Club members that take the time to become involved with a club, have access to this accounting information if they want to see it. These people have a vested interest and duty in ensuring that all monies are spent appropriately. On top of that, there are independent audits done by a professional accounting firm. Copies of their report are distributed every year for every club at the AGM. It's not just the Barrie OFSC office that gets audited. Many clubs are audited at random across the province every year. These audits are very closely scrutinized by both the MTO and the Ministry of Tourism and the General Provincial Auditor. There's many people scrutinizing every expenditure that are a lot more qualified than the average sledder. So why is it that some people still think that they need to have access to the accounting books so that they can find that extra little expenditure that isn't on the up and up. Give it a rest folks. There's people more qualified than you already doing that.

Do I think that the financial reports should be posted on the internet for all to see? ABSOLUTELY NOT!!!

Why? For all of the reasons above. Club members already spend too much time defending what clubs are doing especially when it comes to expenses. The general population doesn't have a clue what it takes to provide the vast trail system across the province. So how could they possibly be qualified to determine which expenditures are justified.

I used to wonder the same things as you folks. I became involved with the club/district/OFSC because I wanted to contribute in a positive way to something that my family and I enjoy. By doing that, it quickly answered my questions about whether or not funds were being spent inappropriately. They AREN'T. Trust me. You don't have to. I don't care.

But for those that insist on getting the answers, get off your ass and volunteer with your local club. Become a board member. Work your way up the ladder into the district structure and then into the OFSC level. Then you too will sleep well at night knowing that your $180/$230 is being spent appropriately. If you don't and still want to know. I do hope you loose a lot of sleep worrying about nothing.

Dom, I thought I had a copy of the 08/09 Matrix package at home here, but I don't.

I'm sorry I can't give you a breakdown on pre and post Dec.1 st permit sales.

I would guess that the 80% stated above is pretty close.

Jeff

[Wildbill]

So Jeff are you saying that folks don't have the right to know ? Are you saying that only club directors have the right to know ? OFSC is a not for profit organization thats only job is to provide snowmobile trails and the infrastructure to maintain them.

The start of the thread asked about the math behind the statement of what went into the trails . The fact that the math does not add up stirred the rest . As you well know I have been very heavily involved in the OFSC in the past and still contribute to the trails today . What I have a hard time swallowing is this holier than thou attitude that comes from above.

[Nutter]

LMAO. quit stirring the pot Nutter.

What gets me is why do people think they have the right to know the stats of the OFSC?

I and several others over the years have spent a lot if time trying to educate people on the workings of the OFSC and each snowmobile club. We've gone out of our way to answer questions about the inner workings of the OFSC.

After doing this for several years, I've seen a pattern repeat itself over and over, year after year.

There are people that think the OFSC and clubs must be totally transparent simply because they gave their hard earned dollars to PURCHASE their trail permit. I'd love to see these people go to their bank, grocery store, beer store, LCBO, snowmobile dealer, car/truck dealership, clothing/hardware/appliance store, etc. (you get my point) and demand to see their financial records simply because they give their hard earned dollars to them. They'll be told to go pound salt. And if these people get the answers they're looking for, they'll still not be satisfied. It's like a dog chasing it's tail. They get on the internet and keep asking or demanding answers to questions that really mean squat in the end. They'll never be satisfied with the answers because they don't trust the source of the information. So if you fit into this group, get involved with your club. Educate yourself on what it takes to build the best and largest trail system in the world. Then volunteer for various positions within your club. Then the district. Then the various committees. Then the Governor for your district. Then Vice-President and finally President of the OFSC. By the way, all of these positions are all volunteer positions. They don't get paid. Some clubs/associations are fortunate enough to sell enough permits to be able to pay their groomer operators. Everyone and every other duty or position is done on a volunteer basis. At the OFSC office, there is work that needs to be done on a full time basis. People have been hired and are paid an industry competitive wage and benefits to perform this work. Trust me they earn every dollar they earn. Don't forget, the OFSC is a business. A non-profit business which means that Revenue Canada scrutinizes our expenditures very closely.

Club members that take the time to become involved with a club, have access to this accounting information if they want to see it. These people have a vested interest and duty in ensuring that all monies are spent appropriately. On top of that, there are independent audits done by a professional accounting firm. Copies of their report are distributed every year for every club at the AGM. It's not just the Barrie OFSC office that gets audited. Many clubs are audited at random across the province every year. These audits are very closely scrutinized by both the MTO and the Ministry of Tourism and the General Provincial Auditor. There's many people scrutinizing every expenditure that are a lot more qualified than the average sledder. So why is it that some people still think that they need to have access to the accounting books so that they can find that extra little expenditure that isn't on the up and up. Give it a rest folks. There's people more qualified than you already doing that.

Do I think that the financial reports should be posted on the internet for all to see? ABSOLUTELY NOT!!!

Why? For all of the reasons above. Club members already spend too much time defending what clubs are doing especially when it comes to expenses. The general population doesn't have a clue what it takes to provide the vast trail system across the province. So how could they possibly be qualified to determine which expenditures are justified.

I used to wonder the same things as you folks. I became involved with the club/district/OFSC because I wanted to contribute in a positive way to something that my family and I enjoy. By doing that, it quickly answered my questions about whether or not funds were being spent inappropriately. They AREN'T. Trust me. You don't have to. I don't care.

But for those that insist on getting the answers, get off your ass and volunteer with your local club. Become a board member. Work your way up the ladder into the district structure and then into the OFSC level. Then you too will sleep well at night knowing that your $180/$230 is being spent appropriately. If you don't and still want to know. I do hope you loose a lot of sleep worrying about nothing.

Dom, I thought I had a copy of the 08/09 Matrix package at home here, but I don't.

I'm sorry I can't give you a breakdown on pre and post Dec.1 st permit sales.

I would guess that the 80% stated above is pretty close.

Jeff

Fantastic post Jeff

So Jeff are you saying that folks don't have the right to know ? Are you saying that only club directors have the right to know ? OFSC is a not for profit organization thats only job is to provide snowmobile trails and the infrastructure to maintain them.

The start of the thread asked about the math behind the statement of what went into the trails . The fact that the math does not add up stirred the rest . As you well know I have been very heavily involved in the OFSC in the past and still contribute to the trails today . What I have a hard time swallowing is this holier than thou attitude that comes from above.

How doesn't the math add up ?? as said before "likely" isn't solid number ?? Are you suggesting that the books are cooked and that the independent audits by the MTO and BWD are false ?? If so why are you on the internet and not bringing forth evidence of this to the national news ?? The books are open for anyone to peruse, if they wish to put the effort in.

The OFSC is a private non profit organization made up of volunteers from across the province who share in a common interest (Snowmobiling). These volunteers secure and insure land to build and maintain a trail network for themselves to use, at the lowest possible cost, all out of enjoyment. If others would like to use these trails they can by paying into it, through purchasing a pass. They also have the option of helping to maintain this user pay system by volunteering. Also at the same time these volunteers are also credited with injecting millions of dollars in to the provincial economy and provincial and federal tax pools, and holding events that raise in the millions for local, national and international charities.

[trailblazer]

I'm sorry to hear that you have dealt with people that have made you feel that they thought they were better then you.

Fortunately I can't say the same. I'm a firm believer in equality and that everyone has a right to be heard.

As far as this transparency request, that's not a requirement by any legislation.

I won't spend the time repeating why I feel that way. Just reread the post as to why.

If any one has a valid interest in the information requested, then they have an avenue to obtain it.

Where does it say that the OFSC or any club needs to post their financial records all over the internet.

No other organization, private, public or non-profit does that nor should they.

Why are some people holding this organization run by volunteers at a higher standard than law or any good reason requires any other organization.

The only reason I believe people want this information is because they don't trust the people running the show.

Well okay, I can understand that.

But in order to sit in judgement, because that's exactly what they would be doing, they must first be educated with how things work, what it is we need to do, what real costs are, who does what, etc. Once they have that education, then they can sit in judgement of those very dedicated volunteers that keep giving and giving. At that point they deserve to see the financial statements of the clubs and the OFSC. But not until then. It's not that the OFSC is some secret society like what some think the Masons are. It's that you need to know all the facts in order to understand why the organization does what it does and does well by the way.

I'm sure you don't need me to come look through your books and determine if the price you charge me for that sled, the repairs you do, the items you sell me are a fair price. I realize the difference between you as a for profit business and the OFSC being a non-profit business are somewhat different. However, the only difference is your ledger should hopefully show you making a profit at the end of the day. The OFSC's ledger doesn't. If there was anything inappropriate going on, do you think the Ontario Government would be contributing money to our trails.The cost of providing the trails is higher than the income from permit sales. That's why they contribute to the trail system because they recognize that snowmobiling is a $1.2 Billion industry in Ontario alone. That industry needs the trail system to survive. Having said all that, do you think I'm qualified to review your books and sit in judgement of your business practices? We both know the answer to that. Why do you feel the OFSC is any different?

You are entitled to disagree with me which your post implies. Isn't this a great country? We are all entitled to our opinions. I know of your past involvement with your local club. I don't think I need to explain all this info from my posts to you. To the others that don't get involved keep in mind, from the outside you can't change anything. Things will stay status quo. If you get involved, and can convince the majority that things are broke and need fixing, then you will be successful at affecting change.

[Wildbill]

If you are going to advertise 18000000 be prepared to justify . The OFSC differs greatly from a small business . Don't get me wrong . I do support organized snowmobiling and will continue to . I have put untold hours into trails and still do . I have seen some things in the inner workings that I do not feel are right . It is a great country and here I express my opinion .

[Wildbill]

LMAO. quit stirring the pot Nutter.

What gets me is why do people think they have the right to know the stats of the OFSC?

I and several others over the years have spent a lot if time trying to educate people on the workings of the OFSC and each snowmobile club. We've gone out of our way to answer questions about the inner workings of the OFSC.

After doing this for several years, I've seen a pattern repeat itself over and over, year after year.

There are people that think the OFSC and clubs must be totally transparent simply because they gave their hard earned dollars to PURCHASE their trail permit. I'd love to see these people go to their bank, grocery store, beer store, LCBO, snowmobile dealer, car/truck dealership, clothing/hardware/appliance store, etc. (you get my point) and demand to see their financial records simply because they give their hard earned dollars to them. They'll be told to go pound salt. And if these people get the answers they're looking for, they'll still not be satisfied. It's like a dog chasing it's tail. They get on the internet and keep asking or demanding answers to questions that really mean squat in the end. They'll never be satisfied with the answers because they don't trust the source of the information. So if you fit into this group, get involved with your club. Educate yourself on what it takes to build the best and largest trail system in the world. Then volunteer for various positions within your club. Then the district. Then the various committees. Then the Governor for your district. Then Vice-President and finally President of the OFSC. By the way, all of these positions are all volunteer positions. They don't get paid. Some clubs/associations are fortunate enough to sell enough permits to be able to pay their groomer operators. Everyone and every other duty or position is done on a volunteer basis. At the OFSC office, there is work that needs to be done on a full time basis. People have been hired and are paid an industry competitive wage and benefits to perform this work. Trust me they earn every dollar they earn. Don't forget, the OFSC is a business. A non-profit business which means that Revenue Canada scrutinizes our expenditures very closely.

Club members that take the time to become involved with a club, have access to this accounting information if they want to see it. These people have a vested interest and duty in ensuring that all monies are spent appropriately. On top of that, there are independent audits done by a professional accounting firm. Copies of their report are distributed every year for every club at the AGM. It's not just the Barrie OFSC office that gets audited. Many clubs are audited at random across the province every year. These audits are very closely scrutinized by both the MTO and the Ministry of Tourism and the General Provincial Auditor. There's many people scrutinizing every expenditure that are a lot more qualified than the average sledder. So why is it that some people still think that they need to have access to the accounting books so that they can find that extra little expenditure that isn't on the up and up. Give it a rest folks. There's people more qualified than you already doing that.

Do I think that the financial reports should be posted on the internet for all to see? ABSOLUTELY NOT!!!

Why? For all of the reasons above. Club members already spend too much time defending what clubs are doing especially when it comes to expenses. The general population doesn't have a clue what it takes to provide the vast trail system across the province. So how could they possibly be qualified to determine which expenditures are justified.

I used to wonder the same things as you folks. I became involved with the club/district/OFSC because I wanted to contribute in a positive way to something that my family and I enjoy. By doing that, it quickly answered my questions about whether or not funds were being spent inappropriately. They AREN'T. Trust me. You don't have to. I don't care.

But for those that insist on getting the answers, get off your ass and volunteer with your local club. Become a board member. Work your way up the ladder into the district structure and then into the OFSC level. Then you too will sleep well at night knowing that your $180/$230 is being spent appropriately. If you don't and still want to know. I do hope you loose a lot of sleep worrying about nothing.

Dom, I thought I had a copy of the 08/09 Matrix package at home here, but I don't.

I'm sorry I can't give you a breakdown on pre and post Dec.1 st permit sales.

I would guess that the 80% stated above is pretty close.

Jeff

P.S. thank you for proving my point about attitude .

[trailblazer]

You're welcome.

Perhaps you should act like a mature adult and not turn this into a personal attack on my character when you realize that you have absolutely no valid arguments against my personal opinion.

Jeff

[Wildbill]

You're welcome.

Perhaps you should act like a mature adult and not turn this into a personal attack on my character when you realize that you have absolutely no valid arguments against my personal opinion.

Jeff

Umm I only made an observation as to your tone . As for personal attacks there were several from you against me . Jeff cool your heels your attitude is showing .

[Wildbill]

Now for the record . The OFSC is not a bad organization. I feel that it is a good organization with room for improvement . One of the items that agravates me is the contant "spin" doctoring of the articles as well as the vagueness of the finincial reporting. It is not that anyone is stealing money .I am confident that that is not occurring but I have read balance sheets all my life and the only one I struggle with is the OFSC .

Now the reality . The clubs need your support ,the clubs is were the pure snowmobiling is by unknown heroes freezing thier a$$es$ off fixing groomers at two in the morning thanking landowners andbegging for permission. Spending countless hours working for free and still they pay for thier permit. It is to these volenteers especially and all volenteers in general that I say thank you . I know from personal experience what you do . YOU ARE MY HEROES !

THANK YOU

[skidooer]

What gets me is why do people think they have the right to know the stats of the OFSC?

It's the way the OFSC presents itself. If it acted like a private entity, nobody would think twice.

There are people that think the OFSC and clubs must be totally transparent simply because they gave their hard earned dollars to PURCHASE their trail permit.

Again it's the way the OFSC presents themselves. Snowmobilers have a vested interest to ensure that things are being run properly and if there is concern that it isn't, questions are going to be asked.

I'd love to see these people go to their bank, grocery store, beer store, LCBO, snowmobile dealer, car/truck dealership, clothing/hardware/appliance store, etc. (you get my point) and demand to see their financial records simply because they give their hard earned dollars to them.

Nobody, except for investors, care. If a car dealership goes under I can go to the one down the street. No big deal. However, if the OFSC is bankrupt, snowmobiling as we know it is over forever.

They get on the internet and keep asking or demanding answers to questions that really mean squat in the end.

Knowledge is power. Perhaps someone will notice in the reports a place where the OFSC can save a fortune. If it remains a secret, nothing will change.

I fail to see why OFSC people are so afraid of what people talk about on a little internet forum. Worst case scenario is that all they do is talk and nothing happens. Best case is that the talk revolutionizes the OFSC to become better and stronger than it could ever become with the current status quo. Either way, there is no loss to the OFSC.

Also, criticism is the absolute most important tool anyone can posses. Do not be afraid of it. If nobody ever "complained" about the trails back in the day we'd probably still be grooming with bedsprings.

So if you fit into this group, get involved with your club. Educate yourself on what it takes to build the best and largest trail system in the world.

The internet, and this forum in particular, can provide everything one needs to get started with a club. And obviously the interest is there. If no club is willing to take advantage of that fact, they should not complain that nobody new is willing to join their group.

[trailblazer]

Bill, since the only way that one can express any "attitude" by writing anything is with punctuation marks at the end of a sentence and in capitals to imply screaming.

I've read my posts over and I can't see where I'm personally attacking you.

Please show me where because you would be the last person I would attack.

Skidoer, I hear what you and others want. You been given many answers on how to obtain that information.

You want it splattered all over the internet and I'm telling you that will never happen nor should it for all of the reasons I've stated before.

Jeff

[Wildbill]

You state that people that want answers should get off thier a$$es . As you well know I have not only held most of these positions but held them with distinction .This alone I take offense too. There are other areas as well. The tone of your posts is that of someone annoyed that people might ask questions. I find this insulting as canadians we have the right to be able to state our opinions and ask questions. Without being looked down and talked down to.

[trailblazer]

You state that people that want answers should get off thier a$$es .

Bill that comment as all my other comments were not directed at you personally or at all. I know that you have the ability to get the answers you are looking for. I know I can, so you can too. That comment was directed at those that now and in many posts in the past, and on other forums even, want that information because they think that the $180 or $230 they pay for a permit are being misappropriated. If they could only get their hands on the financial statements, they'll be able to prove it. That is an insult to those hard working volunteers that make this whole trail system possible and someone has the audacity to infer that someone is stealing money or overpaid. If that statement shows a bad attitude, then yes I'm guilty as charged. I feel I'm justified in feeling that way when I'm too often being put in a position to defend hard working volunteers that don't deserve these implied allegations. There are way too many checks and balances in place for anyone to mis-use the OFSC/Club funds. However, the only way that people will learn differently, is if they do get off their asses and learn what's all involved by being involved themselves. Only then can they judge and decide if everything is on the up and up.

As you well know I have not only held most of these positions but held them with distinction .This alone I take offense too. There are other areas as well.

The tone of your posts is that of someone annoyed that people might ask questions. I find this insulting as canadians we have the right to be able to state our opinions and ask questions. Without being looked down and talked down to.

Yes I do get annoyed and as I just stated, I feel I'm justified for all the reasons I've stated too many times already. Yes as a Canadian or just as a human being you and others do have a right to ask questions. However, when those questions infer that hard working volunteers are doing something inappropriate, then you and them have to expect those people to take exception to those inferences and appear to be annoyed. Most likely they are annoyed and I feel justifiably so. I was not looking down at you or anyone else. If you somehow gathered that from my words, then that is your problem as that was never my intention. I'm not superior to anyone on here, least of all you. I'm not less a man either. I feel that we are all equals.

Jeff

[Mrs. Mossy]

I think possibly that the confusion lies in the assumption that once you purchase a permit and become a club member that one becomes a "shareholder" in the OFSC. If that were true, as a shareholder you would have a right to view the balance sheets of the corporation.

In reality, when you purchase a permit you are simply a consumer purchasing a product. There is nothing in that little piece of paper that you sign that says you become a shareholder.

[maple]

I think possibly that the confusion lies in the assumption that once you purchase a permit and become a club member that one becomes a "shareholder" in the OFSC. If that were true, as a shareholder you would have a right to view the balance sheets of the corporation.

In reality, when you purchase a permit you are simply a consumer purchasing a product. There is nothing in that little piece of paper that you sign that says you become a shareholder.

Great analogy, Mrs. Mossy. And I agree with you 100%.

This thread seems to be turning into a pi$$ing contest ... I think we can all agree that without volunteers, we wouldn't have snowmobiling as good as we do in Ontario, or anywhere else for that matter. The OFSC and the Districts aren't Enron or Nortel (no shots intended). I believe everyone deserves the benefit of the doubt until they prove otherwise ... and in my opinion that hasn't happened yet.

[sobeit]

Now for the record . The OFSC is not a bad organization. I feel that it is a good organization with room for improvement . One of the items that agravates me is the contant "spin" doctoring of the articles as well as the vagueness of the finincial reporting. It is not that anyone is stealing money .I am confident that that is not occurring but I have read balance sheets all my life and the only one I struggle with is the OFSC .

I am not sorry Wildbill - you are opening the door up to a lot of observation.

I am confident that that is not occurring but I have read balance sheets all my life and the only one I struggle with is the OFSC.

Now the facts: the volunteer treasurer of the OFSC (you know her) is a CGA (or a CA - my apologies for not knowing the exact certification), the financial manager(s) of the OFSC have also been CAs, and BDO Dunwoody has been the OFSC's account for how many years now?

So, if you are having struggles reading the balance sheets, why don't you ask instead of ranting the point? Your "opinions" would imply that the treasurer and BDO are not doing a good job (or worse, they are trying to "hide" something by your comments you write)? Consider the efforts of your volunteer Governor, who you duly elect to the position: Governors always look at the financials, and have every opportunity to ask questions, get clarification, etc. Do you support your Governor and job he is doing? Or, is your Governor in cohoots with the rest of the Board of Directors and trying to "hide" something in the OFSC Administration financials? (Remember - you sir, started this.) By the way, if you "struggle" with the OFSC balance sheet, then that implies you do not understand, therefore how can you be "confident" that ....? Sheesh, stop with the crap.

I could offer another point, but it would likely be considered an insult, so instead I'll offer a point of view. My business is not an $18M / year operation. Do I have trouble reading my own financials? The odd time, sure, but a question to the account will provide the answer and help me learn. Again, if you are having troubles reading financials, then ask.

Hey, if you're going to spout crap, be prepared for the backlash. I am done here with this. State what you want about me, and my opinions, but fact is fact, and OFSC process provides every opportunity for input, clarification, and change from the grass roots on up.

Everyone, please have a nice Thanksgiving weekend.

[blue er]

as far as I am concerned my hats go off the the members of the clubs i ride in for providing me with smooth safe and well marked trails as to where all of my $180 is used doesn't bothere me to much and can ride at least 2000k every year and see what has been done with a good percentage of it

[Turbo Burgo]

Wow, when posting the thread i never thought i would open a can or worms this big. I just thought it was cool that we have 100,000 riding buddies. Why do i ride solo most of the time?

[LuvMyViper]

Wow, when posting the thread i never thought i would open a can or worms this big. I just thought it was cool that we have 100,000 riding buddies. Why do i ride solo most of the time?

Hey Squid.. Thats how good threads go. And you should join us on a oc.com ride sometimes and make a bunch of new riding buddys. Where do you usually ride..

[trailblazer]

Wow, when posting the thread i never thought i would open a can or worms this big. I just thought it was cool that we have 100,000 riding buddies. Why do i ride solo most of the time?

Ontario is one heck of a huge place and the riding locations and times available to sledders are vast.

But if you're looking to hook up with someone, Snow Goer Magazine has a pretty cool forum to hook up riders with each other.

Here's the link.

[Domino]

Wow, when posting the thread i never thought i would open a can or worms this big. I just thought it was cool that we have 100,000 riding buddies. Why do i ride solo most of the time?

Ontario is one heck of a huge place and the riding locations and times available to sledders are vast.

But if you're looking to hook up with someone, Snow Goer Magazine has a pretty cool forum to hook up riders with each other.

Here's the link.

[SlowTouringGuy]

Wow, when posting the thread i never thought i would open a can or worms this big. I just thought it was cool that we have 100,000 riding buddies. Why do i ride solo most of the time?

Ontario is one heck of a huge place and the riding locations and times available to sledders are vast.

But if you're looking to hook up with someone, Snow Goer Magazine has a pretty cool forum to hook up riders with each other.

Here's the link.

[FreezerBurnt]

OK then get a copy showing all administration costs and breakdowns and make it available.

Are you asking me to do this? If so, the short answer is sorry, I cannot not. I am not your District Governor. It is easy, simply ask the correct people. You now know the "how" and "who", the rest is up to you. :poke:

and NO he does not have it :poke:

We all know no one knows the REAL cost

[FreezerBurnt]

Wow, when posting the thread i never thought i would open a can or worms this big. I just thought it was cool that we have 100,000 riding buddies. Why do i ride solo most of the time?

Ontario is one heck of a huge place and the riding locations and times available to sledders are vast.

But if you're looking to hook up with someone, Snow Goer Magazine has a pretty cool forum to hook up riders with each other.

Here's the link.

[Nutter]

OK then get a copy showing all administration costs and breakdowns and make it available.

Are you asking me to do this? If so, the short answer is sorry, I cannot not. I am not your District Governor. It is easy, simply ask the correct people. You now know the "how" and "who", the rest is up to you. :poke:

and NO he does not have it :poke:

We all know no one knows the REAL cost

Only people who do not wish to persue the real answer to that don't know ... (A) either because they don't have time to. ( they are lazy. © they don't want to forward that info to club members as it my not serve to further their club/district/association position. (D) beacause they do not understand the works of it all, and would rather blaim someone else, for other peoples BS complaints (people who have no idea what it takes to put sleds on the snow). (E) haven't even attemted to look into the books, other then just in their own club for reasons (A) to (D)

It takes much more then cutting tree's, putting up signs, grooming and selling permits, to provide the quality and size of trail system we have................