Buy Where You Ride -- I Doubt It

[Viperules700]

A lot of people are not aware that you have to have funds in your bank for a club to even get off the ground running to sell permits. More specifically...a club has to put a deposit down in the early Fall to go towards their permits to sell.

Hopefully clubs are not too bad off to even have

these funds available. That is a huge hit in the

club's wallet before the first snowflake falls

An earlier good snowfall will probably perk up sales. That will help for sure. Another slow start or late start will kill sales and kill clubs. Even if they do get snow later on..it will have a huge

impact on how often groomers get run, and on

what trails.

What happens to un sold permits? I wonder what the cost is to have one printed??

[sledjunk]

What happens to un sold permits? I wonder what the cost is to have one printed??

As the permits are MInistry issue, there are strict accounting guidelines for the permits. Unsold permits are returned at the end of the season for a refund of the deposit fee. However, if permits are not accounted for, the cost is the responsibility of the selling organization.

As to the cost of printing, I do not know as it is a Ministry document. I do not know if that cost is passed back to the OFSC or borne by the Ministry.

[Viperules700]

As the permits are MInistry issue, there are strict accounting guidelines for the permits. Unsold permits are returned at the end of the season for

a refund of the deposit fee. However, if permits

are not accounted for, the cost is the

responsibility of the selling organization.

As to the cost of printing, I do not know as it is a Ministry document. I do not know if that cost is passed back to the OFSC or borne by the Ministry.

Very interesting. Great info.

[Fred Quimby]

As the permits are MInistry issue, there are strict accounting guidelines for the permits. Unsold permits are returned at the end of the season for a refund of the deposit fee. However, if permits are not accounted for, the cost is the responsibility of the selling organization.

As to the cost of printing, I do not know as it is a Ministry document. I do not know if that cost is passed back to the OFSC or borne by the Ministry.

I might be wrong but I was lead to believe that the cost of printing and assembly of the permits is encapsulated into the cost. There is ziltch borne by the Ministry,

Sledjunk is right...unsold permits can be returned for refund. Missing permits are as good as sold as far as the MTO goes. A club is responsible..and you lose the deposit fee. That's one of the reasons it is important for a club to have good re-sellers. Not some fly-by-nighter that is likely to lose the permits.

[sledjunk]

I might be wrong but I was lead to believe that the cost of printing and assembly of the permits is encapsulated into the cost. There is ziltch borne by the Ministry,

You are probably right, but I just don't know.

[FreezerBurnt]

I hate early snow. Since it always melts at new years. Never fails.

depends where as to it melting

BUT get a couple good 15-20cm snowfalls mid Nov and snow stays till mid Dec, you will get lots of trail passes sold even if it does melt 2nd or 3rd week dec, and come Xmas let the Great lakes open up the SnowSquall machine

This about trail permit sales, early snow helps no matter what

Without early Snow permit sales go down the drain

[dweese]

I'm sure we are not the only ones beating our heads over the funding system.

Maybe the slogan should be, "buy where you rode last year"

My club is the same in the last 4 years the winter of 2010/2011 rocked we had 11 weeks of solid riding on good snow, that started 2 weeks before Christmas. The other 3 years? 2 no trails opened and the other they opened a 25km stretch of railbed for about 2 weeks and only groomed it once.

I'm sure they got their share of permit money even the years they didn't open. How is this fair?

The big problem here is the fact that the funding formula seems to be a top secret eyes only document. Bunch of post here by people thinking they know something only to be corrected by others. But do any of us truly know? I'm sure Nutter is sitting in the shadows waiting to jump with his go to a meeting, get involved with your club and than you can ask them, rant. But some of us don't have that option. It would be nice if the OFSC would just put stuff like this out there.

They raised the permit price this year, and that's fine, first time in a few years. But would it kill them to give us a true break of how permit dollars are dished out?

Here is the other question...

When it comes to voting on things at the AGM does every club have an equal vote? Or is it weighted base on your permit sales? If it is, than the smaller clubs who keep the system running last year are screwed.

[Fred Quimby]

depends where as to it melting

BUT get a couple good 15-20cm snowfalls mid Nov and snow stays till mid Dec, you will get lots of trail passes sold even if it does melt 2nd or 3rd week dec, and come Xmas let the Great lakes open up the SnowSquall machine

This about trail permit sales, early snow helps no matter what

Without early Snow permit sales go down the drain

I agree..

people tend to get excited when the frost sets in and stays..then some decent snow..and a good snow event ..will trigger sales and those that were holding back to "wait and see" what the Winter brings. IMO they will want to capitalize on the post December 1st hikes in permit price..and get riding.

[Viperules700]

This year I am going to make snow.

[sledjunk]

This year I am going to make snow.

Yellow????

[sledjunk]

I'm sure we are not the only ones beating our heads over the funding system.

Maybe the slogan should be, "buy where you rode last year"

My club is the same in the last 4 years the winter of 2010/2011 rocked we had 11 weeks of solid riding on good snow, that started 2 weeks before Christmas. The other 3 years? 2 no trails opened and the other they opened a 25km stretch of railbed for about 2 weeks and only groomed it once.

I'm sure they got their share of permit money even the years they didn't open. How is this fair?

The big problem here is the fact that the funding formula seems to be a top secret eyes only document. Bunch of post here by people thinking they know something only to be corrected by others. But do any of us truly know? I'm sure Nutter is sitting in the shadows waiting to jump with his go to a meeting, get involved with your club and than you can ask them, rant. But some of us don't have that option. It would be nice if the OFSC would just put stuff like this out there.

They raised the permit price this year, and that's fine, first time in a few years. But would it kill them to give us a true break of how permit dollars are dished out?

Here is the other question...

When it comes to voting on things at the AGM does every club have an equal vote? Or is it weighted base on your permit sales? If it is, than the smaller clubs who keep the system running last year are screwed.

The price that the club pays for the permits they sell is based upon the matrix. This averages things like grooming hours, Km of trails, permits sold, etc over a 4 year period so that a club does not get hammered by one bad year, but it still will affect their price. The difference between the selling price ($210 or $260) and this cost price is what the club gets to keep. In addition, there may be additional revenue for the club from the OFSC if there is a need. Some clubs do not get anything but others with fewer sales and larger areas will be funded from these transfers.

The whole funding thing is quite complicated and is always evolving. It is not perfect, but it is what we have until someone comes up with a more equitable solution. Each club has its own expenses and problems and the funding solution has to be flexible enough to not cripple some clubs at the expense of others.

At the AGM, every member club gets two votes, regardless of size or permit sales.

Hope this helps.

[Viperules700]

Yellow????

I am not tall enough, hence I will only melt snow

and thaw the ground out. I hear beer is cheap in perrferlaw though.

[Turbo Doo]

I'll ride where theres snow..

[Turbo Doo]

Feel free to chime in here, but i do not think that buying passes from the clubs that you spend the most time riding in, is the answer either. If thats the case, then we all should buy trail passes from all the clubs that have the least amount of sales, and then all their grooming and funding problems will be solved? Just a thought.

Is there even a right answer?

[Viperules700]

The ofsc has to move the money around better.

[Wildman]

The ofsc has to move the money around better.

The ofsc does move money around, how do you think clubs that sell around 50 permits get money to operate? The answer is the matrix, money is taken from the clubs that sell permits. I thought it was a flawed system, I got involved and I understand it very well, the system does work, the problem is, there is not enough money generated by permit sales, without government subsities, the system would not work. The long and short of the whole thing is the permit price is to low, there needs to be more money to go around. It is that simple. Why do you think your land taxes go up? So the municipality can provide all the services everyone demands, the only difference between the municipality and the ofsc is the ofsc doesn't raise their fee for providing trails. The permit. Clubs are expected to provide trails that are smoother than a queens hiway, yet nobody wants to pay more...........insert ur bitch here.................

[bbakernbay]

The OFSC does move money around, how do you think clubs that sell around 50 permits get money to operate? The answer is the matrix, money is taken from the clubs that sell permits. I thought it was a flawed system, I got involved and I understand it very well, the system does work, the problem is, there is not enough money generated by permit sales, without government subsities, the system would not work. The long and short of the whole thing is the permit price is to low, there needs to be more money to go around. It is that simple. Why do you think your land taxes go up? So the municipality can provide all the services everyone demands, the only difference between the municipality and the ofsc is the ofsc doesn't raise their fee for providing trails. The permit. Clubs are expected to provide trails that are smoother than a queens hiway, yet nobody wants to pay more...........insert ur bitch here.................

Wildman is absolutely right and you can't blame the OFSC Barrie staff. To make any changes requires a majority vote of the Clubs at the AGM which I am attending in a few weeks. There is a number of scenarios that are being suggested to modify the 'Matrix' but there is no quick fix and there is no assurance that any changes will get approved by the respective Clubs (two votes each).

Clubs that are potentially going to lose revenue are least likely to vote for a change that spreads the money around to those Clubs that have a demonstrated need for additional funds.

As 'wildman" correctly states, there is insufficient revenue to pay the bills especially insurance.

The next few years are going to be extremely critical for organized snowmobiling and changes to the system are very difficult to achieve, primarily because there is no correct way to split up the revenue fairly. The Pros and Cons of the various Scenarios listed in the AGM package give a great overview as to how really difficult it is to try and decide what is the right thing to do, particularly when you have over 200 Clubs trying to decide the merits of what is the best way to go.

[dweese]

Dumb question, by why does each club get 2 votes?

I mean, the club isn't going to vote a yes and a no, making their vote neutral.

[Wildbill]

Dumb question, by why does each club get 2 votes?

I mean, the club isn't going to vote a yes and a no, making their vote neutral.

I have seen it happen if the two reps dissagree

[Nutter]

I'm sure we are not the only ones beating our heads over the funding system.

Maybe the slogan should be, "buy where you rode last year"

My club is the same in the last 4 years the winter of 2010/2011 rocked we had 11 weeks of solid riding on good snow, that started 2 weeks before Christmas. The other 3 years? 2 no trails opened and the other they opened a 25km stretch of railbed for about 2 weeks and only groomed it once.

I'm sure they got their share of permit money even the years they didn't open. How is this fair?

The big problem here is the fact that the funding formula seems to be a top secret eyes only document. Bunch of post here by people thinking they know something only to be corrected by others. But do any of us truly know? I'm sure Nutter is sitting in the shadows waiting to jump with his go to a meeting, get involved with your club and than you can ask them, rant. But some of us don't have that option. It would be nice if the OFSC would just put stuff like this out there.

They raised the permit price this year, and that's fine, first time in a few years. But would it kill them to give us a true break of how permit dollars are dished out?

Here is the other question...

When it comes to voting on things at the AGM does every club have an equal vote? Or is it weighted base on your permit sales? If it is, than the smaller clubs who keep the system running last year are screwed.

It's never a rant, it's the way it has to be done, there's far too much involved to hand someone a manual of some sort and say here you go you'll understand. Trying to make sure each club out of 230+ has the funding they need to operate, taking into consideration ridership, varying trail km's and geography and season length is no easy task.

The ofsc does move money around, how do you think clubs that sell around 50 permits get money to operate? The answer is the matrix, money is taken from the clubs that sell permits. I thought it was a flawed system, I got involved and I understand it very well, the system does work, the problem is, there is not enough money generated by permit sales, without government subsities, the system would not work. The long and short of the whole thing is the permit price is to low, there needs to be more money to go around. It is that simple. Why do you think your land taxes go up? So the municipality can provide all the services everyone demands, the only difference between the municipality and the ofsc is the ofsc doesn't raise their fee for providing trails. The permit. Clubs are expected to provide trails that are smoother than a queens hiway, yet nobody wants to pay more...........insert ur bitch here.................

Wildman is absolutely right and you can't blame the OFSC Barrie staff. To make any changes requires a majority vote of the Clubs at the AGM which I am attending in a few weeks. There is a number of scenarios that are being suggested to modify the 'Matrix' but there is no quick fix and there is no assurance that any changes will get approved by the respective Clubs (two votes each).

Clubs that are potentially going to lose revenue are least likely to vote for a change that spreads the money around to those Clubs that have a demonstrated need for additional funds.

As 'wildman" correctly states, there is insufficient revenue to pay the bills especially insurance.

The next few years are going to be extremely critical for organized snowmobiling and changes to the system are very difficult to achieve, primarily because there is no correct way to split up the revenue fairly. The Pros and Cons of the various Scenarios listed in the AGM package give a great overview as to how really difficult it is to try and decide what is the right thing to do, particularly when you have over 200 Clubs trying to decide the merits of what is the best way to go.

Great posts guys, look forward to seeing you at AGM :right_on:

Dumb question, by why does each club get 2 votes?

I mean, the club isn't going to vote a yes and a no, making their vote neutral.

Ontario corp law dictates that each club gets two votes