FreezerBurnt Posted November 12, 2009 Share Posted November 12, 2009 Kenora Daily Miner and NewsThursday, November 12, 2009 Pursuing changes to snowmobiling permit system Posted By By Reg Clayton The city's snowmobile and ATV committee will seek Kenora city council's support Monday for proposed changes to the provincial trail permit system for the most westerly district of Northwestern Ontario. The committee is lobbying the Ministry of Transportation to introduce snowmobile registration fees for District 17, from Kashabowie township west of Thunder Bay to the Manitoba border. The registration fees would be forwarded to the Ontario Federation of Snowmobile Clubs to be dispersed among District 17 snowmobile clubs to cover the cost of maintaining trails. Speaking at Tuesday's property and planning committee meeting, Coun. Wendy Cuthbert explained the changes will establish "reciprocity" with Manitoba and Saskatchewan. "The proposal is ready to go forward. We're trying to get the permitting changed," Cuthbert said referring to consultations with Sunset Trail Riders and other district snowmobile clubs. … more in today's Daily Miner and News on newsstands and at http://eedition.kenoradailyminerandnews.com I can't see the OFSC wanting this as it would open the flood gates, but to people out here it would make sense, just saying... Let's hear your reason why it should or should not happen... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cehyoopers Posted November 12, 2009 Share Posted November 12, 2009 we do not pay extra for driving our cars province to province,,,I suspect a lot of people choose not to travel because of having to pay extra for permits???? But I am not sure if they came out with a "super" trail permit for say 300 or dollars, there would be long lines to get it?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Domino Posted November 12, 2009 Share Posted November 12, 2009 I don't get it District 17 sells permits today and the funds are dispersed among the clubs of District 17. What are they asking for? Why should D17 be treated any differently that any other district? Are they a distinct society? Starting to sound like Quebec. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nutter Posted November 12, 2009 Share Posted November 12, 2009 I guess they figure they will have more money if MTO ever ok'd it and they only tapped into the market of annually registered sleds in their area, rather then a matrix share of all OFSC permits. How much do they want to make the reg fee, and how will those in that area that don't ride trails, or are not required to buy a permit (fishermen, trappers, hunters, prospectors, people with camps where the road in is the trail) feel about paying that ? As an OFSC member, no brainer for me I say have at it if that's what they want, less money to send out that way from other areas of the province, not that I mind a portion of my permit money going that way, as I know it's needed ..... just if that's what they want. :poke: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FreezerBurnt Posted November 12, 2009 Author Share Posted November 12, 2009 Manitoba cost $100 for permit which they already biatch about being too expensive having to pay $200 for the oFSC permit on top of that Many cottages along the border as well as people in Manitoba owning cottage on the Ont side This more of a way of Kenora(town) to attract bussiness it has all summer but loses out in winter do to the border we are not talking crossing a river border but rather tyhe imaginary border of Man/Ont that can be crossed all time yet by groomed trail Picture sledding in Huntsville and having to pay another $200 to ride the trail in South Seguin township northwestward or riding Ganny and having to pay ride in Port Perry even though you already shelled out for a permit in Ganny Clubs around NewLiskeard face the same with Val D'or being right across the border Btw I am not for it nor against it, I am only hr or so away from the border also, just posting the article Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Domino Posted November 12, 2009 Share Posted November 12, 2009 OK, so they would like the trail permit merged with the license validation sticker and it would work across the provincial border? What about if they travel to other districts, would they then have to purchase an OFSC permit? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nutter Posted November 12, 2009 Share Posted November 12, 2009 Sure works great for the riders, but is it even financially viable ? Right now the province and MTO shakes hands, kiss baby's and cuts an annual thank you check to the OFSC for sleddings $2 billion injected into to Ontario's economy and the tax spin off of $200 mil (sort of like an income tax return). Would they even be interested into treading in to uncharted financial baby sitting territory for Northwestern Ontario snowmobile trails ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FreezerBurnt Posted November 12, 2009 Author Share Posted November 12, 2009 OK, so they would like the trail permit merged with the license validation sticker and it would work across the provincial border? What about if they travel to other districts, would they then have to purchase an OFSC permit? True Dom,if they are allowed to do that why not further east Yet what I think they are trying to do is attract the Manitoba tourist that they already have with everything else but sledding where as the $200 permit is a big issue since they already have the Manitoba permit Is it financially viable for District 17 clubs??? I don't think so yet would be a win for the border towns in winter on another note That $125 Classic permit could be a good thing out there to attract people back to buying permits out in NWO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
02Sled Posted November 13, 2009 Share Posted November 13, 2009 We have had postings before about the convenience of the ability to acquire your permit at the MTO office when you buy your licence sticker. That is all about convenience and maybe doesn't even have to go through the MTO as the licence offices are independently owned and operated under the authority of the MTO. Perhaps the owners would like the opportunity to sell trail permits and make a couple of bucks after all that is why they are in business. I think this is a bit of a shell game. The smoke screen being the MTO selling the trail permits. The real issue is the reciprocity. With the Manitoba permit being $100.00 who do you think will even consider buying a permit from that MTO office at $200.00 when they can buy a Manitoba permit for $100.00. There is nothing to stop me from buying a trail permit in either Quebec or Manitoba to ride their trails. If I can buy a trail permit from either Quebec or Manitoba and ride in Ontario with the net result being I save money I would be a fool not to buy what costs me the least. I realize that is very shallow thinking because the big picture would mean the demise of the trail system as we know it today. How many people do you really think would look at the big picture and make the decision to buy their permits for $200.00 when they can ride the same trails for $100.00. The other part of this is yes there would be a financial benefit to the town of Kenora on a tourism side but the gains would be short lived as the trail system there crumbles. Then they wouldn't even have the locals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nutter Posted November 13, 2009 Share Posted November 13, 2009 A few posts from another site, from a club exec from the Sunset Riders SC in Dist 17 GEEZUS, not again!!!!!!I've never been against reciprocity but it can't happen. It's cost prohibitive. Remember (if you keep up with what happens in Kenora regarding snowmobiling), Cuthbert was the one who spearheaded the closure of the city trail system that leads from the OFSC trails into Kenora. She wanted it to be a free zone and she got her wish. Now she has riders who live in Kenora pissed off at her. Her latest foray into snowmobiling is grossly hypocritical because she now has changed her position from free to let's charge everyone, only now she is trying to get somebody else to do it because free doesn`t work. She was nowhere, and I repeat NOWHERE to be heard from when the STR went to the OFSC two years ago to try and get the OFSC to implement a registration/pass integrated program. The town council, the chamber of commerce and the business estalishments were also NOWHERE to be heard from. We went it alone!!!!!! When that failed, the STR then asked for a District #17 only area to apply the new program, which once again was soundly rejected by the Eastern clubs. It ended up as "road kill". It would not suprise me one bit if the OFSC decided to make this an opportunity to blow off their participation and perhaps reduce funding from Kenora West. We only have seven snowmobile clubs in District #17 with two of those seven now in trouble. What kind you ask. They cannot get enough volunteer members to float an executive(s). So, while the thought of reciprocity gives everyone a warm and fuzzy feeling about riding some great trails and also enjoying some great scenery, it cannot and will not happen. Our district requires more money to operate than we contribute to the OFSC pot with pass sales. Our pass sales for the district are pretty good, but they do not generate enough money to support the present trail system, equipment maintenace, repairs, etc. that are required. Kenora alone maintains some 700 kms of trails (with two groomers) and our town population is only around 15,000 if that. Not everyone of them owns a snowmobile. The demographics (population and financial wealth) make it impossible to make reciprocity a reality. But dreams don't cost anything. Sooooo, everyone that argues in favour of reciprocity, I would sure like to hear from all of you "dreamers" about how this can be financed with a reciporcity agreement in mind!!! You can't, because the vast majority of you haven't got any idea of what our trail system looks like, what it takes to maintian a system that is on 50/50 land and water (not counting sloughs, creeks, etc). Believe me when I say that looking at a map doesn't help you either. I don't really think that there is a concrete solution or answer right now. It cost more to groom trails in Ontario because we have lots of trails with a lot of them up in the wilderness or near wilderness. It seems like everything costs more in Ontario than Saskatchewan or Manitoba as evidenced by the GST and PST. Right now PST in Ontario is 8 percent, with a "twinning" of the taxes coming up. Rural areas cost more because smaller quantities of goods are shipped in lesser quantities but freight charges remain somewhat the same. Insurance costs are more in Ontario because we in District #17, as well as some of the other smaller districts, get painted with the same brush as the Eastern clubs. More traffic on the trails means more insurance claims. Our area of operations, albeit less congested, still pays the same to insure a kilometer of trail. There are a lot of desparities that make us different in what it costs to operate. We all do the same work and maintenance but we each pay a different price to maintain a kilometer of trail. Winnipeg, Selkirk, Beausejour, rural areas from the perimeter North, etc. provide more possibilities to acquire riders. Here in Kenora, we don't have that luxury. We have Winnipeg to the West from which we do get around a 40 percent of rider support which does help us enormously. To the East, we have Thunder Bay some 350 miles away. What's inbetween doesn't amount to a hill of beans. Couple that with our kilometer cost of a trail which is more than the Eastern part of Ontario and connect that all to a $200.00 plus seasonal trail pass and you can figure out why we pay the price for a lack of support from some of our riders to the West and South. It's understandable. Unfortunately the focus is on the Eastern end of Ontario and we are considered to be something of a nuisance when it comes to funding BUT not when it comes to riding in the wilderness and beauty of our areas. We smaller districts can be compared to a few small window panes in a very large picture window. I really cannot see any justification or solution to Ontario OFSC accepting reciprocity without a benefit to the OFSC. There's just too large of a financial gap to be overcome. We have three main trails into Manitoba and the US. The L101 to West Hawk lake, the L106 to Minnesota and the "A" West trail to Falcon lake. Those trails have a combined distance of about 125 miles. If reciprocity would require us to groom those three trail an additional one time per week, it would cost us quite a bit of expense. If a restaurant has to put on another employee and cook more meals, they are making money. The more people that roll up to the gas pump, do their own re-fueling and pay/leave, the gas station is doing well. When the waitress in a bar is having a hard time keeping up to the drink orders, both her and the bar are doing well. So, I will ask the question that I've been asking all along - "where and how do we as a club re-coup our cost and make money?". That extra traffic is good for the gas stations, restaurants, hotels/motels, bars, etc. but where is our piece of the action? We provide the trails for the reciprocity riders to come into and leave Kenora without a single penny going to the club that is keeping those trails maintained and insured. But we sure catch hell if the trail grooming isn't up to some peoples standards and we never hear the end of it. Human nature at it's best, I guess. We also have the L103 trail that runs into Manitoba and Nopiming park. You can see what is happening with that trail now. 95 percent of Manitobans who are riding on that trail refuse to buy any kind of a pass in order to support that trail because of the pass price. I understand that. Ontario riders don't want to ride it if it doesn't get groomed. I also understand that. As a result, the grooming and operation of that trail is now suffering and that's a shame. Manitoba and Ontario both spent monies to connect their trails to each other to give riders another beautiful and great riding trail to enjoy. It's dying. Of all the trails that we have in the Kenora area, that is my favourite trail to ride. When you get out 50, 60, 70, miles from Kenora in the middle of the wilderness, see hundreds of thousands of wolf paw prints in the snow, man your senses, observation and sense of survival really come alive. You start to think - did I put locktite on that wheel when I changed the bearing - geez, that gas gauge is getting close to empty, etc.., When I get to Nopiming, sit down in that little restaurant that Blaine and his mother operate, grab a hot coffee, a bowl of soup, and have something to eat, it's like I'm sitting in some little outpost in the middle of nowhere and really feel that this is a good ride. So YES, reciprocity would be great if we all benefited from it, not just a select few. If you don't agree with me, then come out with some of us when we are signing and checking ice, no matter what the weather is like. Then come out with us when it's "Chinese Fire Drill" time to pull out the stakes on lakes by having to chop out the majority of them, and the lakes are covered in water and you don't know how thick the ice is under your sled. You'll have a hard time accepting reciprocity when there isn't any benefit to the club that you are trying to keep alive. Dammit, another long winded missive! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
02Sled Posted November 13, 2009 Share Posted November 13, 2009 Long winded but so very true.... Reciprocity is a nice vision but does nothing to fund the trails in Ontario. As I indicated who would buy an Ontario permit when they could get away with a $100.00 Manitoba permit. The only way it may work would be if they were the same price or a blended unique permit where you pay a premium for the addtional benefit of being able to cross over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CjGaughan Posted November 13, 2009 Share Posted November 13, 2009 This is a hard situation to solve, I don't think there could ever be a fully integrated system across the country unless costs go WAY up. Comparing it to driving your car between provinces is like comparing apples to oranges. So much more money goes into maintaining roads, and every person actually does pay hundreds or even thousands of dollars per year to have the right to use roads, we just don't think about it that way (validation stickers, license plates, gas tax). The prices of permits would skyrocket if things went national. Also, you have to remember that roads are not built for the sole purpose of leisure, but our economy also depends on them. Snowmobile trails are nothing more than something to have fun on. I do like the idea of a "super" permit though. If you have the money to travel across the country by snowmobile, you have the money to buy a superpass. Or perhaps an integrated "discount" system in which you choose which provinces you want passes for, and receive a discount. Something like that....more random ideas. Why doesn't Kenora or the clubs in the area work out a deal with the OFSC and snoman about a lower priced permit for that specific trail, IF you have a snoman permit...or having area clubs work together from different provinces. Something like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skidooer Posted November 13, 2009 Share Posted November 13, 2009 Also, you have to remember that roads are not built for the sole purpose of leisure, but our economy also depends on them. Snowmobile trails are nothing more than something to have fun on. Fun fact: Snowmobiling is one of the largest industries in Ontario. Our economy relies on those trails almost as much as it does the highways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
02Sled Posted November 13, 2009 Share Posted November 13, 2009 I could see where it might work that if the Manitoba permit is a $100.00 tag and the Ontario permit a $200.00 tag perhaps a blended $225.00 tag for both would work. They would be able to ride in Ontario for a reduced rate as I expect they would not be riding Ontario exclusively. This may bring some infusion of cash into the area. They would pay full price for their Manitoba tag and half for Ontario. With the total cost of $225.00 being greater than the $200 tag those that would ride in Ontario only would not be going for this and it would appeal only to those wanting both. They would only be part time in either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cehyoopers Posted November 13, 2009 Share Posted November 13, 2009 a long time time ago there was more then one snowmobile orginization.Fact is there was lots.But some provincial strong-arming brought most (funny choice of words) of them together.They stayed as one for years,but there was still belly-aching.Always will be,just the way it is.Now today,just like 30 yrs ago,someone wants to try a different route.They know the past,but are willing to explore the future.We here in the banana belt have all the answers,as usual.That is our job,just the way it is when you have one large group,and one small remote group.From our armchairs we have 20/20 vision,maybe even better then that. I have never snowmobiled in their area,close,Ignace and Atikokin,,but would like to some time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cehyoopers Posted November 13, 2009 Share Posted November 13, 2009 Also, you have to remember that roads are not built for the sole purpose of leisure, but our economy also depends on them. Snowmobile trails are nothing more than something to have fun on. Fun fact: Snowmobiling is one of the largest industries in Ontario. Our economy relies on those trails almost as much as it does the highways. Fun fact: Michigan's number one cash crop,,,,,snow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skidooer Posted November 13, 2009 Share Posted November 13, 2009 From our armchairs we have 20/20 vision,maybe even better then that. There is no harm in talking about the issues. That is, after all, the point of a discussion forum. Even a statement based on incorrect assumptions holds quite a bit of merit. I don't know why so many consider it taboo to talk about issues related to snowmobiling, on a snowmobile discussion forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cehyoopers Posted November 14, 2009 Share Posted November 14, 2009 From our armchairs we have 20/20 vision,maybe even better then that. There is no harm in talking about the issues. That is, after all, the point of a discussion forum. Even a statement based on incorrect assumptions holds quite a bit of merit. I don't know why so many consider it taboo to talk about issues related to snowmobiling, on a snowmobile discussion forum. agreed,there is no simple answers for our brethren in the NW,,,I have been there 3 or 4 times in the the last 30 years or so.The economic downturn is brutal for them,,,,they need what what we have here in abudance,,,,,population,,,,but they resist for unspoken reasons.Perhaps it is their destiny,,,even if the snow line ever moved that far north,it will be to little to late. It sure is beautiful country though,,,,just so dam far away for us... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlowTouringGuy Posted November 14, 2009 Share Posted November 14, 2009 From our armchairs we have 20/20 vision,maybe even better then that. There is no harm in talking about the issues. That is, after all, the point of a discussion forum. Even a statement based on incorrect assumptions holds quite a bit of merit. I don't know why so many consider it taboo to talk about issues related to snowmobiling, on a snowmobile discussion forum. agreed,there is no simple answers for our brethren in the NW,,,I have been there 3 or 4 times in the the last 30 years or so.The economic downturn is brutal for them,,,,they need what what we have here in abudance,,,,,population,,,,but they resist for unspoken reasons.Perhaps it is their destiny,,,even if the snow line ever moved that far north,it will be to little to late. It sure is beautiful country though,,,,just so dam far away for us... I've been sledding all over the Province and I'd love to visit there on a saddle bag tour. Spend money. How does one get there on a reasonable loop through Ontario? Doesn't seem possible with the current trail closures. Why don't they just join Manitoba and we can stop agonizing about Lakehead and west ?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CjGaughan Posted November 14, 2009 Share Posted November 14, 2009 Also, you have to remember that roads are not built for the sole purpose of leisure, but our economy also depends on them. Snowmobile trails are nothing more than something to have fun on. Fun fact: Snowmobiling is one of the largest industries in Ontario. Our economy relies on those trails almost as much as it does the highways. Fun fact: Michigan's number one cash crop,,,,,snow. Both good points... never took that into account. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhatboyC Posted November 14, 2009 Share Posted November 14, 2009 As I indicated who would buy an Ontario permit when they could get away with a $100.00 Manitoba permit. The only way it may work would be if they were the same price or a blended unique permit where you pay a premium for the addtional benefit of being able to cross over. Ontario and Quebec have been talking about this too. Don't know how they want to make it work. But another way I see it working was if you can't buy a season pass from the other combined province. Only the 1, 3 or 7 days max. This force you to put money on your province first but in return give you the opportunity to go on to other provinces with same season pass. Price can be different from province to province but that's life. Just like you can't put a permit on your car from another province regardless if its cheaper over there. Regardless how they make it work. Living on the border I'm all for it!!! Right now buying for both provinces makes allot of my friend re-think there sled passion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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