Heating cottage with basement throughout winter

[Nutter 250]

1100sqft cottage, 3 bedroom 1 bath open concept kitchen, dining and living room and 10x8 mud/laundry room addition. 40 inch crawl space on piers, sand ground with 8 mil polly covering it, outer walls in crawl space skirted with wood and 2 inch Styrofoam, under floor is pink fiber held up with stapled strapped Tyvek. Cottage and garage are both 70's 2x4 stick frame, new insulation and vapor barrier when we bought and did a full gut reno on the cottage, also pulled the oil furnace and went to propane, pellet stoves in both cottage and insulated unattached 24x26 garage. We leave the furnace at 58 when were not there, no ducting underneath never had any pipes freeze. Turn the furnace up to 70 and pellet stoves on when we get there, up to temp within the hour and the furnace doesn't run again till about 12-24 hours after we leave (we usually leave the pellet stoves running after we leave till they run out of pellets). 

 

We hang out in the garage living/party room 90% of the time, ceiling fan and window wide open with a fan in it on high blowing heat out, as even on lowest burn setting it's tough to keep it at 70 or under. Once that slab floor in the garage heats up it holds the heat well, usually only 4 days home before heading back up and it stays above freezing in there, usually around 10 deg, I think the coldest I've seen it was 5 deg. 

 

Two 420 tank fills a year and a bag of pellets every 24 - 30 hours for each stove ($6.50 a bag) while were up. Cost for both propane and pellets is $1200 to $1500 a year. Small price to pay for the convenience of leaving it heated and not messing with draining plumbing. Growing up with a family cottage my dad would always shutter the place every week, usually always had to screw with getting the water going, 3 - 4 hours till you could get down to a sweater, furniture and bedding held the damp cold till well into Sat eve LOL 

 

Never bothered to see what our cost would be shuttering every week and re heating from what ever temp it dropped too, I bet it wouldn't be a very big difference. Defiantly not worth the inconveniences to us anyways. 

[signfan 441]

7 hours ago, Nutter said:

1100sqft cottage, 3 bedroom 1 bath open concept kitchen, dining and living room and 10x8 mud/laundry room addition. 40 inch crawl space on piers, sand ground with 8 mil polly covering it, outer walls in crawl space skirted with wood and 2 inch Styrofoam, under floor is pink fiber held up with stapled strapped Tyvek. Cottage and garage are both 70's 2x4 stick frame, new insulation and vapor barrier when we bought and did a full gut reno on the cottage, also pulled the oil furnace and went to propane, pellet stoves in both cottage and insulated unattached 24x26 garage. We leave the furnace at 58 when were not there, no ducting underneath never had any pipes freeze. Turn the furnace up to 70 and pellet stoves on when we get there, up to temp within the hour and the furnace doesn't run again till about 12-24 hours after we leave (we usually leave the pellet stoves running after we leave till they run out of pellets). 

 

We hang out in the garage living/party room 90% of the time, ceiling fan and window wide open with a fan in it on high blowing heat out, as even on lowest burn setting it's tough to keep it at 70 or under. Once that slab floor in the garage heats up it holds the heat well, usually only 4 days home before heading back up and it stays above freezing in there, usually around 10 deg, I think the coldest I've seen it was 5 deg. 

 

Two 420 tank fills a year and a bag of pellets every 24 - 30 hours for each stove ($6.50 a bag) while were up. Cost for both propane and pellets is $1200 to $1500 a year. Small price to pay for the convenience of leaving it heated and not messing with draining plumbing. Growing up with a family cottage my dad would always shutter the place every week, usually always had to screw with getting the water going, 3 - 4 hours till you could get down to a sweater, furniture and bedding held the damp cold till well into Sat eve LOL 

 

Never bothered to see what our cost would be shuttering every week and re heating from what ever temp it dropped too, I bet it wouldn't be a very big difference. Defiantly not worth the inconveniences to us anyways. 

900 sq ft cottage.  Electric heat and a wood stove.  Our hydro bills run $140 a month in the winter if we are using it most weekends.  $90 a month for the months we aren't there.  Only thing left on is the heated line to the lake and a fridge.   So I figure our heat is costing us $200 a winter (4 months at $50 a month).  The heated line would run regardless of our use.  We do burn wood when there which is work, but no cost as we cut ourselves.  Yes it can be a touch chilly coming in, but we dress accordingly.  About 3 hours for the wood stove to get the place to 20 degrees.  By Hour 5 if you've been feeding it steady you're sitting in your underwear sweating.  An electric blanket solves the cold bed issue in a hurry.  I have the water startup and draining to around 15 mins total.  Has been some trial and error, but it's almost flawless now.  We also haven't bothered with plowing the road.  We have a good Pelican sleigh and bring our stuff in behind the sleds (2 miles from a township plowed lot).  It's not for everyone, but we enjoy the roughing it feeling you get in the winter.  Once we're in it's as comfortable as home and has us right in the middle of the trail system.  I am looking forward to having the wifi thermostats this winter.  Heat will be on by noon on Fridays meaning the place will have had 6 - 8 hrs of heat on in it when we arrive.  Will be interesting to see what that does to the hydro costs.

[stoney 944]

The layout of the cottage plays a big factor no doubt. 
If I recall details from when Nutter Reno’d the place him and I think a few others have, it was a two story structure in cottage and the  garage too, that will be harder to heat and take longer to heat up vs. a single story open concept with wood stove. 

Lots of good info here though based on what works for each circumstance!

[Nutter 250]

55 minutes ago, stoney said:

The layout of the cottage plays a big factor no doubt. 
If I recall details from when Nutter Reno’d the place him and I think a few others have, it was a two story structure in cottage and the  garage too, that will be harder to heat and take longer to heat up vs. a single story open concept with wood stove. 

Lots of good info here though based on what works for each circumstance!

The 2 story was our flip cottage/house in Norland Stoney, we finished that 5 years ago, that one was huge, we doubled the size of it, and added an attached garage. We bought this one in 2017 just north Kinmount in Howland Junction right on the rail trail, just a bungalow, intentions were to flip this one too, but we like it there so much it's keeper. 

[Nutter 250]

8 hours ago, signfan said:

900 sq ft cottage.  Electric heat and a wood stove.  Our hydro bills run $140 a month in the winter if we are using it most weekends.  $90 a month for the months we aren't there.  Only thing left on is the heated line to the lake and a fridge.   So I figure our heat is costing us $200 a winter (4 months at $50 a month).  The heated line would run regardless of our use.  We do burn wood when there which is work, but no cost as we cut ourselves.  Yes it can be a touch chilly coming in, but we dress accordingly.  About 3 hours for the wood stove to get the place to 20 degrees.  By Hour 5 if you've been feeding it steady you're sitting in your underwear sweating.  An electric blanket solves the cold bed issue in a hurry.  I have the water startup and draining to around 15 mins total.  Has been some trial and error, but it's almost flawless now.  We also haven't bothered with plowing the road.  We have a good Pelican sleigh and bring our stuff in behind the sleds (2 miles from a township plowed lot).  It's not for everyone, but we enjoy the roughing it feeling you get in the winter.  Once we're in it's as comfortable as home and has us right in the middle of the trail system.  I am looking forward to having the wifi thermostats this winter.  Heat will be on by noon on Fridays meaning the place will have had 6 - 8 hrs of heat on in it when we arrive.  Will be interesting to see what that does to the hydro costs.

 

That's going to be a game changer.

 

We have high speed internet but I just haven't bothered to put in a wifi thermostat, keeping it at 58 it's less than hour to get up to 70 in the cottage.  But want to do something with the garage since it's where we spend most of our time, it takes a few hours to get up to temp with only a pellet stove. Right now it's a none issue with a buddy down the road hitting the on button for us Thursday or Friday mornings. But I would like to figure out a way to have it turn on via wifi.  

[stoney 944]

20 minutes ago, Nutter said:

The 2 story was our flip cottage/house in Norland Stoney, we finished that 5 years ago, that one was huge, we doubled the size of it, and added an attached garage. We bought this one in 2017 just north Kinmount in Howland Junction right on the rail trail, just a bungalow, intentions were to flip this one too, but we like it there so much it's keeper. 

Ya, I remember the pictures of it and all the work that went into it.....it was not on the small side for sure.

Good news on the update / relocation, I had no idea.

Stayed on the same general area, but in a much better spot, IMO.

[LuvMyViper 732]

34 minutes ago, Nutter said:

 

That's going to be a game changer.

 

We have high speed internet but I just haven't bothered to put in a wifi thermostat, keeping it at 58 it's less than hour to get up to 70 in the cottage.  But want to do something with the garage since it's where we spend most of our time, it takes a few hours to get up to temp with only a pellet stove. Right now it's a none issue with a buddy down the road hitting the on button for us Thursday or Friday mornings. But I would like to figure out a way to have it turn on via wifi.  

 

I use these wifi temp and humidity sensors. They work great. I also have the water sensors.  They have all kinds of wifi sensors and on/off switches.

 

From Amazon 

 

WiFi Temperature and Humidity... https://www.amazon.ca/dp/B08PVKLZHC?ref=ppx_pop_mob_ap_share

[Nutter 250]

6 minutes ago, stoney said:

Ya, I remember the pictures of it and all the work that went into it.....it was not on the small side for sure.

Good news on the update / relocation, I had no idea.

Stayed on the same general area, but in a much better spot, IMO.

 

 

It is much better spot, plus no partners in on this one.

 

It's the perfect area for us, just over an hour commute from home, with the Haliburton/Victoria County Rail Trail right at our doorstep. Never worry about snow conditions in the winter, and access to 100's and 100's of km of SxS trails in the off season. Another bonus is road use with the SxS, the only road we can't ride on is HWY 35 south of Minden, everything else is legal, trail connectivity is just as good as sledding with road runs and bridges taking the place of lake running. 

[Nutter 250]

13 minutes ago, LuvMyViper said:

 

I use these wifi temp and humidity sensors. They work great. I also have the water sensors.  They have all kinds of wifi sensors and on/off switches.

 

From Amazon 

 

WiFi Temperature and Humidity... https://www.amazon.ca/dp/B08PVKLZHC?ref=ppx_pop_mob_ap_share

 

Thanks Rick, going to start doing more wifi stuff for piece of mind and convenience. So far we've got a 4 camera set up and a bunch of lighting tapped into our phones. The garage pellet stove is a bit of pita to figure out, I need an electronics guru to tap into the stoves on off circuit in the motherboard, so I can jump it to a wifi switch. 

 

[ArcticCrusher 926]

10 minutes ago, Nutter said:

 

Thanks Rick, going to start doing more wifi stuff for piece of mind and convenience. So far we've got a 4 camera set up and a bunch of lighting tapped into our phones. The garage pellet stove is a bit of pita to figure out, I need an electronics guru to tap into the stoves on off circuit in the motherboard, so I can jump it to a wifi switch. 

 

The wifi cameras are great, both Blink and Eufy batteries will last over 6 months with varied use and not to many false signals, ie wind moving leaves etc.

 

A wifi switch should connect to a potential free relay in the circuit since you will have two voltage sources (120V and low DC from the circuit).  Do you have the circuit?  I'm an electrical engineer if you recall and do controls automation for a living.  Piece of cake.

[Nutter 250]

17 minutes ago, ArcticCrusher said:

The wifi cameras are great, both Blink and Eufy batteries will last over 6 months with varied use and not to many false signals, ie wind moving leaves etc.

 

A wifi switch should connect to a potential free relay in the circuit since you will have two voltage sources (120V and low DC from the circuit).  Do you have the circuit?  I'm an electrical engineer if you recall and do controls automation for a living.  Piece of cake.

 

Awesome thanks

 

Here's a link to the manual for the stove, circuit diagram page 21. 

 https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/2071/6041/files/25-PDVC_USandCANADA.pdf?14626357853177001156

[ArcticCrusher 926]

18 minutes ago, Nutter said:

 

Awesome thanks

 

Here's a link to the manual for the stove, circuit diagram page 21. 

 https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/2071/6041/files/25-PDVC_USandCANADA.pdf?14626357853177001156

I would connect to the wall thermostat J18 connector, you can use a wifi thermostat directly if the contacts are voltage (potential free) or an interposing relay connect to a wifi switch.  The switch energizes the relay coil, the relay contacts are wired in series to enable/disable the circuit and then uses the existing thermostat.  You then don't have to be concerned about mixing voltages. 

 

 

 

[Nutter 250]

40 minutes ago, ArcticCrusher said:

I would connect to the wall thermostat J18 connector, you can use a wifi thermostat directly if the contacts are voltage (potential free) or an interposing relay connect to a wifi switch.  The switch energizes the relay coil, the relay contacts are wired in series to enable/disable the circuit and then uses the existing thermostat.  You then don't have to be concerned about mixing voltages. 

 

 

 

 

You kind of lost me there lol  Would I be able to leave it turned off and turn it on on Thursday or Friday morning ?

[UsedtoSkidoo 625]

Why not use the WIFI thermostat directly. It will work. 

[ArcticCrusher 926]

44 minutes ago, Nutter said:

 

You kind of lost me there lol  Would I be able to leave it turned off and turn it on on Thursday or Friday morning ?

You can connect the unit directly to a wifi switch if you can get it to autostart when power is applied.

 

The circuit I showed you will just control the tstat, not go through a startup procedure.  That is not shown in the circuit and may not be possible.

[ArcticCrusher 926]

34 minutes ago, UsedtoSkidoo said:

Why not use the WIFI thermostat directly. It will work. 

You can.  How is the wifi thermostat powered, if it is from the unit then it needs compatible voltages (ie 24V) or powered independently, hence the voltage isolation using a relay.

[UsedtoSkidoo 625]

31 minutes ago, ArcticCrusher said:

You can.  How is the wifi thermostat powered, if it is from the unit then it needs compatible voltages (ie 24V) or powered independently, hence the voltage isolation using a relay.

usually by batteries and then 24v signal unless you dont have a common wire which its them powered by......................batteries. 

Just have to check them regularly

[Nutter 250]

4 hours ago, ArcticCrusher said:

I would connect to the wall thermostat J18 connector, you can use a wifi thermostat directly if the contacts are voltage (potential free) or an interposing relay connect to a wifi switch.  The switch energizes the relay coil, the relay contacts are wired in series to enable/disable the circuit and then uses the existing thermostat.  You then don't have to be concerned about mixing voltages. 

 

 

 

 

3 hours ago, UsedtoSkidoo said:

Why not use the WIFI thermostat directly. It will work. 

 

2 hours ago, ArcticCrusher said:

You can connect the unit directly to a wifi switch if you can get it to autostart when power is applied.

 

The circuit I showed you will just control the tstat, not go through a startup procedure.  That is not shown in the circuit and may not be possible.

 

2 hours ago, ArcticCrusher said:

You can.  How is the wifi thermostat powered, if it is from the unit then it needs compatible voltages (ie 24V) or powered independently, hence the voltage isolation using a relay.

 

2 hours ago, UsedtoSkidoo said:

usually by batteries and then 24v signal unless you dont have a common wire which its them powered by......................batteries. 

Just have to check them regularly

 

Thanks guys, I'll fiddle with it this weekend. I'm guessing it all depends on if it stays on in a standby by mode when hooked to a thermostat ? I did read this in the manual and check the cold start procedure they refer to, it wasn't of much help lol 

 

Quote

Thermostat

An external wall thermostat (such as our Part # PU-DTSTAT) can be used on our pellet units, as long as it is a low-voltage type that works with millivolt systems. After unplugging the unit, locate the jumper wire (J-18) on the bottom of the control panel. The two screws should then be loosened and the jumper wire removed from the board. Next, the two thermostat lead wires should be slipped into these openings and the screws tightened; the jumper wire should be saved for future operation without a thermostat. The unit will operate differently once the wall thermostat is connected – we recommend the Control Board be set at “9” on Heat Range and Blower Speed while using the thermostat. Refer to the section on “Start-up Procedure” for information on cold starts.

 

 

 

 

Sorry didn't mean to highjack your post Stoney 

[stoney 944]

3 hours ago, Nutter said:

Sorry didn't mean to highjack your post Stoney 

LOL...no worries, all these details surrounding cottage and winter use is helpful.

Plus, I am not one to get worked up over these things 

[UsedtoSkidoo 625]

15 hours ago, Nutter said:

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks guys, I'll fiddle with it this weekend. I'm guessing it all depends on if it stays on in a standby by mode when hooked to a thermostat ? I did read this in the manual and check the cold start procedure they refer to, it wasn't of much help lol 

 

 

 

 

 

Sorry didn't mean to highjack your post Stoney 

Good luck

 

And I think this is a good hijack. Helps us all

[Nutter 250]

So was finally able to play with the garage pellet stove and thermostat set up last night and this morning. So far I'm SOL for remote start via the thermostat being kicked on and off.

 

When hooked to a thermostat it wont cycle on and off when the thermostat is turned on and off, and with the thermostat turned down to 60* it will stay running at the lowest burn rate, even if it's exciding 60* in the garage. Talked to a couple England Stove dealers and as figured no one wants to discuss a pellet stove remote igniting with no one there, even though all the safe guards will prevent any over burn or snuffing out issues, just as it would with leaving it on when no ones home, or over night when sleeping, which they are designed to do. 

[Ox 662]

Remote lighting?

Like - completely starting up from nothing?

You gotta be kidd'n?

 

 

The lowest setting is the lowest that I know of them going.

There is no such thing as a pilot light on them eh?

 

I would no recommend a pellet stove for unattended use for long.

I have once had the fire burn (smolder) back up the screw into the tank.

I don't remember what the cause was, but my guess was that the feed motor died?

 

I'll take gas thank you very much!

 

[ArcticCrusher 926]

2 hours ago, Nutter said:

So was finally able to play with the garage pellet stove and thermostat set up last night and this morning. So far I'm SOL for remote start via the thermostat being kicked on and off.

 

When hooked to a thermostat it wont cycle on and off when the thermostat is turned on and off, and with the thermostat turned down to 60* it will stay running at the lowest burn rate, even if it's exciding 60* in the garage. Talked to a couple England Stove dealers and as figured no one wants to discuss a pellet stove remote igniting with no one there, even though all the safe guards will prevent any over burn or snuffing out issues, just as it would with leaving it on when no ones home, or over night when sleeping, which they are designed to do. 

That's what I figured when I looked at the manual.  

[Nutter 250]

3 hours ago, Ox said:

Remote lighting?

Like - completely starting up from nothing?

You gotta be kidd'n?

 

 

The lowest setting is the lowest that I know of them going.

There is no such thing as a pilot light on them eh?

 

I would no recommend a pellet stove for unattended use for long.

I have once had the fire burn (smolder) back up the screw into the tank.

I don't remember what the cause was, but my guess was that the feed motor died?

 

I'll take gas thank you very much!

 

 

 

It's self igniting but have to manually touch the on button, been running pellet stoves without issue for years, never had any problems leaving them running on their own while out riding for 8 -10 hours or over night while were sleeping. Both our garage and in the cottage stoves have sealed hoppers and also have safe guards so they can't run away burn up the auger into the hopper. Both are also vented out and above the roof line to pull a draft if the power goes out, so they wont smoke the cottage or garage out before they burn out. 

 

The Enviro pellet unit in cottage could run off a wifi plug and it will light by just supplying power with presetting the controls, due to being a none computerized control panel, but no need since we keep the cottage at 58 with the propane furnace when not there. But no such luck with the garage unit.

 

We have been considering swapping them but the England in the garage is an industrial look unit and the Enviro in the cottage is a bigger BTU unit, and fits the look inside better, and is a lot quieter. 

[Ox 662]

Oh, I sure woodn't worry aboot the pellet stove while out riding or anything - no.

I just meant - like leaving for the week.

 

Yeah, my bin is relatively sealed too I guess. Like I said - it smoldered. 

Not so likely to burn the place down, but I still don't like the thought.

 

Are pellets all that much cheaper heat than gas up there?

 

Last we burnt pellets was that cold winter of 13/14 when LP was in scarce supply.

I have a pair of pellet (corn) "furnaces", and we ran one in the shop and one in the house that winter.

 

I bought the first one to burn corn, back when they were giving it away.

It felt terribly wrong to burn food when you can't eat coal or oil, but I figgered there must be quite a glut of it if they were giving it away. (for $2 USF)

That also gave a good job for my young teenager at the time. 

 

 

So - how does this thing light it'self?

Does it use LP?