FreezerBurnt Posted April 3, 2012 Share Posted April 3, 2012 It's not the locals that need help. It's the non-locals that the clubs should want to attract. We love to ride the trails, we love to come up and see those things one can't see otherwise, we enjoy meeting and visiting with all of the wonderful people. We want for things to go as we planned, no troubles, no problems. We don't like to get lost, we want to ride, get to our place to stay, have a good meal and a few drinks. If it becomes too difficult we just won't visit. There are plnety of places for us to spend our disposable income. That's not exactly how I feel personally, but not too far from my feelings. This has become a very expensive, time consuming hobby. The degree to which I have been felt appreciated, like a customer, has diminished. I don't care about the locals, I don't care about the OFSC or the local clubs, I don't care about who sells the most trail permits. I care about me and my experience on the trails. Somehow that is beginnning to feel wrong. I don't get it. therefore it is the business that want and benefit from this, so they should pay up IMO, if John Restaurant/gas pays for advertisement and thus supports the snowmobile club would he not be upset if Toms restaurant/gas get free advertisement??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
revrnd Posted April 3, 2012 Share Posted April 3, 2012 therefore it is the business that want and benefit from this, so they should pay up IMO, if John Restaurant/gas pays for advertisement and thus supports the snowmobile club would he not be upset if Toms restaurant/gas get free advertisement??? If a business wants a sign on a map board or have the club put up "their" signs @ intersections, they should pay for it, no doubt about it. Even if a business wants to do that themeselves, they should still have to "sponsor" the club & follow some directions, especially if the trail is on private property. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greggie Posted April 4, 2012 Share Posted April 4, 2012 It's not the locals that need help. It's the non-locals that the clubs should want to attract. We love to ride the trails, we love to come up and see those things one can't see otherwise, we enjoy meeting and visiting with all of the wonderful people. We want for things to go as we planned, no troubles, no problems. We don't like to get lost, we want to ride, get to our place to stay, have a good meal and a few drinks. If it becomes too difficult we just won't visit. There are plnety of places for us to spend our disposable income. That's not exactly how I feel personally, but not too far from my feelings. This has become a very expensive, time consuming hobby. The degree to which I have been felt appreciated, like a customer, has diminished. I don't care about the locals, I don't care about the OFSC or the local clubs, I don't care about who sells the most trail permits. I care about me and my experience on the trails. Somehow that is beginnning to feel wrong. I don't get it. This is an easy one, do we need to get money for business promotion or do we help out the snowmobilers who buy our permits? In my opinion, first we need to satisfy our permit buyers and make them happy. If they aren't they can decide to sell their snowmobile and we loose them. Also it would be nice if the business give us some money. Thanks, Greg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
02Sled Posted April 4, 2012 Share Posted April 4, 2012 This is an easy one, do we need to get money for business promotion or do we help out the snowmobilers who buy our permits? In my opinion, first we need to satisfy our permit buyers and make them happy. If they aren't they can decide to sell their snowmobile and we loose them. Also it would be nice if the business give us some money. Thanks, Greg And what businesses do you choose to advertise for. Just imagine how many signs you could potentially be asking the clubs to absorb the cost of. What comes to mind are the trails that run through Midland and Penetang.... there are countless restaurants, and in Midland I can think of about 8 or 9 hotel, motels. Do you put up signs for all of them? Then you miss one and he wants to know why you advertised for everyone else but him. If a business wants a sign on the snowmobile trail they should pay for the sign with standard specifications and a small donation to the club, perhaps $25. If you are in business and can't afford the $25 amd the cost of the sign to promote and increase your business then you are in serious trouble in the first place. Don't forget... these signs don't need to be replaced every year. I would suggest the donation to the club should be every year though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Posted April 4, 2012 Share Posted April 4, 2012 This is an easy one, do we need to get money for business promotion or do we help out the snowmobilers who buy our permits? Greg I never thought of it that way. Here's another angle. We launched from a resort in Northern Ontario a few years ago. New owners. Going north was a piece of cake, accessing a TOP Trail via a spur trail from resort. On the way home, on our 5th day, we missed the spur trail and ended up a half hour south. Turned around a found the small trail (fresh snow, barely visible). I asked the owners why they didn't put up signs for snowmobilers. They said that an established resort had issues with them opening in winter and competing for snowmobiling customers. Their signs vanished as soon as they were put up. Now I don't know what this resort contributed to the trail system, apart from awesome dining, lodging and atmosphere. That was enough for this simple sledder and his teenage son, on their first saddlebag trip together. Overshooting the resort added an hour to our travel day and I can't help but feel that 'local politics' was the reason. The suggestion of a flat fee for each sign makes sense. Hopefully, that will appease the legacy* establishments and provide the signage riders need. _____ * I received a letter from my cable/phone company advising that it was discontinuing my 'legacy' phone line pricing. Was initially shocked at how they twisted that word, but then realized that a lot of thought went into it. The next day, I purchased a WIND phone on their $25 plan for a family member who only needs a phone in Toronto, as a silent message to my 'legacy' carrier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nith Valley Sledder Posted April 4, 2012 Share Posted April 4, 2012 The degree to which I have been felt appreciated, like a customer, has diminished. I don't care about the locals, I don't care about the OFSC or the local clubs, I don't care about who sells the most trail permits. I care about me and my experience on the trails. Somehow that is beginnning to feel wrong. I don't get it. Unfortunately the club volunteer is getting the same attitude. They are getting tired of everybody getting rich off the fruits of their volunteer labour. There are a lot of people spending hundreds of hours to make the trails happen every year between the actual trail maintenance and the ever increasing paperwork. The businesses come in and take a lot of money from the trail system while giving very little back. That being said there are a few businesses that get invilved with their local club and contribute greatly either with money or labour. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
revrnd Posted April 4, 2012 Share Posted April 4, 2012 And what businesses do you choose to advertise for. Just imagine how many signs you could potentially be asking the clubs to absorb the cost of. What comes to mind are the trails that run through Midland and Penetang.... there are countless restaurants, and in Midland I can think of about 8 or 9 hotel, motels. Do you put up signs for all of them? Then you miss one and he wants to know why you advertised for everyone else but him. If a business wants a sign on the snowmobile trail they should pay for the sign with standard specifications and a small donation to the club, perhaps $25. If you are in business and can't afford the $25 amd the cost of the sign to promote and increase your business then you are in serious trouble in the first place. Don't forget... these signs don't need to be replaced every year. I would suggest the donation to the club should be every year though. X2 I think the same thing could be said for not having any internet presence nowadays. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Classic Posted April 4, 2012 Share Posted April 4, 2012 It's not the locals that need help. It's the non-locals that the clubs should want to attract. We love to ride the trails, we love to come up and see those things one can't see otherwise, we enjoy meeting and visiting with all of the wonderful people. We want for things to go as we planned, no troubles, no problems. We don't like to get lost, we want to ride, get to our place to stay, have a good meal and a few drinks. If it becomes too difficult we just won't visit. There are plnety of places for us to spend our disposable income. That's not exactly how I feel personally, but not too far from my feelings. This has become a very expensive, time consuming hobby. The degree to which I have been felt appreciated, like a customer, has diminished. I don't care about the locals, I don't care about the OFSC or the local clubs, I don't care about who sells the most trail permits. I care about me and my experience on the trails. Somehow that is beginnning to feel wrong. I don't get it. I don't believe you understand how the system works, First the clubs make no money when you stay at a business. The business is the only winner. Why should a club care if you stay there. Hence no signs unless some one is paying for them. Now if you wanted to help tell the business when you stay that they should contact their local club about signs so their customers can find the place. Bottom line is TOURISM does nothing for clubs except cost them mor $$$ to groom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mossy Posted April 4, 2012 Share Posted April 4, 2012 I don't believe you understand how the system works, First the clubs make no money when you stay at a business. The business is the only winner. Why should a club care if you stay there. Hence no signs unless some one is paying for them. Now if you wanted to help tell the business when you stay that they should contact their local club about signs so their customers can find the place. Bottom line is TOURISM does nothing for clubs except cost them mor $$$ to groom. Oh and how is that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Polaris1 Posted April 4, 2012 Share Posted April 4, 2012 I don't believe you understand how the system works, First the clubs make no money when you stay at a business. The business is the only winner. Why should a club care if you stay there. Hence no signs unless some one is paying for them. Now if you wanted to help tell the business when you stay that they should contact their local club about signs so their customers can find the place. Bottom line is TOURISM does nothing for clubs except cost them mor $$$ to groom. Not so sure about that,we bought 2 season passes from the Cochrane club and we are "tourists".Spent a total of 3 days riding their system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greggie Posted April 4, 2012 Share Posted April 4, 2012 I don't believe you understand how the system works, First the clubs make no money when you stay at a business. The business is the only winner. Why should a club care if you stay there. Hence no signs unless some one is paying for them. Now if you wanted to help tell the business when you stay that they should contact their local club about signs so their customers can find the place. Bottom line is TOURISM does nothing for clubs except cost them mor $$$ to groom. Again I think some don't understand it anymore, IMO we need to do everything to keep our permit buyers in Ontario happy. That means putting up direction, gas and accommodation signs. Do the business to pay for it, hey every donation is welcome, but if they decide that they don't want to pay, do you want to piss permit buyers off that can't find the business? No, we want to do everything to keep snowmobile permit buyers happy. Your guys who want to have money for everything are pissing off permit buyers. Why? For the cost of a sign? Grow up and do your job! We need to do everything possible to keep permit buyers happy, so that they are buying next year again a permit. Tourism does nothing,only more $$$ to groom? What did you eat today? The permit buyers who snowmobile to your area and use your trails that is great. How more how better. We need more permit buyers who enjoy their snowmobile trips and continue buying their permit. If they stop buying, there will be less and less money in the equalization fund and less and less money will go up north. If you don't want tourism, get out of the OFSC and become a local snowmobile club and put up signs that your trails are not for OFSC permits. Thanks, Greg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greggie Posted April 4, 2012 Share Posted April 4, 2012 I never thought of it that way. Here's another angle. We launched from a resort in Northern Ontario a few years ago. New owners. Going north was a piece of cake, accessing a TOP Trail via a spur trail from resort. On the way home, on our 5th day, we missed the spur trail and ended up a half hour south. Turned around a found the small trail (fresh snow, barely visible). I asked the owners why they didn't put up signs for snowmobilers. They said that an established resort had issues with them opening in winter and competing for snowmobiling customers. Their signs vanished as soon as they were put up. Now I don't know what this resort contributed to the trail system, apart from awesome dining, lodging and atmosphere. That was enough for this simple sledder and his teenage son, on their first saddlebag trip together. Overshooting the resort added an hour to our travel day and I can't help but feel that 'local politics' was the reason. The suggestion of a flat fee for each sign makes sense. Hopefully, that will appease the legacy* establishments and provide the signage riders need. _____ * I received a letter from my cable/phone company advising that it was discontinuing my 'legacy' phone line pricing. Was initially shocked at how they twisted that word, but then realized that a lot of thought went into it. The next day, I purchased a WIND phone on their $25 plan for a family member who only needs a phone in Toronto, as a silent message to my 'legacy' carrier. A fee for putting up a sign, okay but if there is a business putting up their signs and the local club it taking them down because they didn't get any money is a shame. Again, we are in a market what is going down for years and we need to do everything to keep permit buyers happy. It isn't about the money, it is about permit sales! Also we need to get more families and teenagers involved in snowmobiling. It is now investing some money and gaining in the future. We need to do driver training for free and I have no problem with family permits! Thanks, Greg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Classic Posted April 5, 2012 Share Posted April 5, 2012 Again I think some don't understand it anymore, IMO we need to do everything to keep our permit buyers in Ontario happy. That means putting up direction, gas and accommodation signs. Do the business to pay for it, hey every donation is welcome, but if they decide that they don't want to pay, do you want to piss permit buyers off that can't find the business? No, we want to do everything to keep snowmobile permit buyers happy. Your guys who want to have money for everything are pissing off permit buyers. Why? For the cost of a sign? Grow up and do your job! We need to do everything possible to keep permit buyers happy, so that they are buying next year again a permit. Tourism does nothing,only more $$$ to groom? What did you eat today? The permit buyers who snowmobile to your area and use your trails that is great. How more how better. We need more permit buyers who enjoy their snowmobile trips and continue buying their permit. If they stop buying, there will be less and less money in the equalization fund and less and less money will go up north. If you don't want tourism, get out of the OFSC and become a local snowmobile club and put up signs that your trails are not for OFSC permits. Thanks, Greg Again I think some don't understand it anymore, IMO we need to do everything to keep our permit buyers in Ontario happy. That means putting up direction, gas and accommodation signs. Do the business to pay for it, hey every donation is welcome, but if they decide that they don't want to pay, do you want to piss permit buyers off that can't find the business? No, we want to do everything to keep snowmobile permit buyers happy. Your guys who want to have money for everything are pissing off permit buyers. Why? For the cost of a sign? Grow up and do your job! We need to do everything possible to keep permit buyers happy, so that they are buying next year again a permit. Tourism does nothing,only more $$$ to groom? What did you eat today? The permit buyers who snowmobile to your area and use your trails that is great. How more how better. We need more permit buyers who enjoy their snowmobile trips and continue buying their permit. If they stop buying, there will be less and less money in the equalization fund and less and less money will go up north. If you don't want tourism, get out of the OFSC and become a local snowmobile club and put up signs that your trails are not for OFSC permits. Thanks, Greg Greggie, unless you can show me where businesses cut clubs a cheque for grooming then my statement still stands. Again what do the clubs gain? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nith Valley Sledder Posted April 5, 2012 Share Posted April 5, 2012 Most of the southern clubs sell very few "tourist" permits. Most of the buyers are locals who get their permit at the nearest dealer or club. Tourists are very little "value added" from a club's point of view. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FreezerBurnt Posted April 5, 2012 Share Posted April 5, 2012 And Greggie you are the one advocating we close Northern Onatrio trails cause they are a burden and don't have $$$ to operate nor volounteers and now you want them to suck it up and put up signs for businesses that do NOT support them??? Which is it?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greggie Posted April 5, 2012 Share Posted April 5, 2012 And Greggie you are the one advocating we close Northern Onatrio trails cause they are a burden and don't have $$$ to operate nor volounteers and now you want them to suck it up and put up signs for businesses that do NOT support them??? Which is it?? If you think that you are doing your things right, who is me to say that it isn't. To tell me that I am crazy, oh well, you can tell me what you want. If you look at our permit numbers and our permit buyers satisfaction, we are doing very well this year. Overall we got more money from our permit sales of this year then the year before. Hmm, something's we are doing right. You putting up sign of business who don't support you? Hey, who are your clients, if I am right permit buyers and not the business. You want to piss off permit buyers and you think you are right, it is your responsibility. Thanks, Greg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greggie Posted April 5, 2012 Share Posted April 5, 2012 Greggie, unless you can show me where businesses cut clubs a cheque for grooming then my statement still stands. Again what do the clubs gain? Again, without signs, you piss of permit buyers! Who are our customers? Permit buyers and not business. If you are thinking that you are right, don' t put up signs. Thanks, Greg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mossy Posted April 5, 2012 Share Posted April 5, 2012 A few year back there was a motel just north of Goderich that had a trail leading to it from the old rail line. It helped the business owner with a few snowmobilers that stopped and enjoyed the trails around here. The following year there were no stakes leading to the motel. I called the trail co ordinator and asked if I could help put stakes in. His response kind of shocked me (at the time). He said that for many years the stakes lead to that motel and never once did the club ask for money or help from the owners. This year we asked, this year we aren't going to help him because he said no. Since then there hasn't been a trail to that motel and not many snowmobilers go in the winter. I guess if the clubs and the bussiness owers can't help each other out then too bad for both sides! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catinental couch Posted April 5, 2012 Share Posted April 5, 2012 Well said Mossy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
02Sled Posted April 5, 2012 Share Posted April 5, 2012 If you think that you are doing your things right, who is me to say that it isn't. To tell me that I am crazy, oh well, you can tell me what you want. If you look at our permit numbers and our permit buyers satisfaction, we are doing very well this year. Overall we got more money from our permit sales of this year then the year before. Hmm, something's we are doing right. You putting up sign of business who don't support you? Hey, who are your clients, if I am right permit buyers and not the business. You want to piss off permit buyers and you think you are right, it is your responsibility. Thanks, Greg Greg... while I don't disagree with having signage for business it doesn't come for free. Most clubs are strapped for cash as it is. I still have the question of which signs do you choose to put up since in some areas the number of signs could be enormous. If you are in the middle of nowhere they would be few. Look at Wasaga Beach which sees a significant number of sledders. I counted in my head 12 food establishments and I am sure some were missed in one short stretch of road just off of one of the trails. In that same strecth there are 4 motels, 3 gas stations, 3 convenience stores and more. Does the club pay for all of these signs... then as you go around town not far from the trails the number expands exponentially. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
revrnd Posted April 5, 2012 Share Posted April 5, 2012 It has been my experience that if a "feeder" trail is groomed by the club to serve a single business, the business pays for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greggie Posted April 5, 2012 Share Posted April 5, 2012 Greg... while I don't disagree with having signage for business it doesn't come for free. Most clubs are strapped for cash as it is. I still have the question of which signs do you choose to put up since in some areas the number of signs could be enormous. If you are in the middle of nowhere they would be few. Look at Wasaga Beach which sees a significant number of sledders. I counted in my head 12 food establishments and I am sure some were missed in one short stretch of road just off of one of the trails. In that same strecth there are 4 motels, 3 gas stations, 3 convenience stores and more. Does the club pay for all of these signs... then as you go around town not far from the trails the number expands exponentially. I would make one sign with all the names on it. I can make signs by myself and did making signs for some clubs in this area. Some clubs put also a lot of business signs with names, direction and distance at all intersections. All signs were made on aluminum backing and were 20" x 8" for 3 names and a 20" x 14" for 6 names. The cost was not bad, a sign with 3 names was about $25 each. Thanks, Greg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greggie Posted April 5, 2012 Share Posted April 5, 2012 It has been my experience that if a "feeder" trail is groomed by the club to serve a single business, the business pays for it. I don't agree with you, you are making trails and put up signage for permit buyers. Each club has their own standards for their service and to get them all the same, isn't easy. Thanks, Greg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbakernbay Posted April 6, 2012 Share Posted April 6, 2012 I was up in Elk Lake in February and asked why the business didn't have a better sign at theit trail intersecting with the OFSC trail. She said that if they put up a sign there, a competitng business will remove it almost immediately. She said they had government startup funding so that was probably the major issue, although we all rationalize our actions based upon some twisted logic. In our own District, I am always surprised how very little input and/or support we get from businesses that have a major benefit from snowmobiling. I agree with Greggie that uniform signing is the way to go in addition to the big Trail Map boards with advertising spaces that we sell to supporting businesses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FreezerBurnt Posted April 6, 2012 Share Posted April 6, 2012 I was up in Elk Lake in February and asked why the business didn't have a better sign at theit trail intersecting with the OFSC trail. She said that if they put up a sign there, a competitng business will remove it almost immediately. She said they had government startup funding so that was probably the major issue, although we all rationalize our actions based upon some twisted logic. In our own District, I am always surprised how very little input and/or support we get from businesses that have a major benefit from snowmobiling. I agree with Greggie that uniform signing is the way to go in addition to the big Trail Map boards with advertising spaces that we sell to supporting businesses. Many businesses don't give a hoot about it,there atttitude is they already come why should we support the clubs As for uniform signs with businesses that support clubs,Sudbury Trail Plan clubs have done this for yrs at most major trail heads in our system, they are huge 4foot by 7foot (rough size) signs with all business locate on the trails and/or area I have posted these signs before in my trail reports in the past Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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