What are your clubs thoughts on STOP versus Trail Patrol

[Fred Quimby]

This would be more of a question to club Directors, and those involved with Trail Patrol. Looking for feedback on how your club views STOP. Do you use them? Have you sent them a letter respectfully asking them to keep out? Do you prefer to utilize your clubs own Trail Patrol. Let's not slag the STOP guys but lets have some feedback. Honest and factual.

[oldtimer]

From what I remember this is a provincial organization with special constables working with the OPP. I dont' think you can ask them not to be in your club's area and even if you could... why would you? They are there to promote safety on the trails, not just permit enforcement. From what I've heard lately they want to work with the clubs Trail Patrol if possible so permits can be sold on the spot and to reinforce compliance. Have you had difficulties with them in your area? I used to think it was a win-win situation to have the STOP patrolling on club trails? What's changed?

[bbakernbay]

North Bay has never seen any STOP in our area although I know they are active in French River area.

To me, they don't need to accompany OPP, that is just needless duplication.

I've seen OPP parking at our trail intersections with only one officer and no sled and getting the job done.

We would certainly welcome STOP on our trails, more enforcement is needed, Freeloaders are getting more of a problem every week IMHO.

We only have 2 Trail Patrollers for 300 kms of trails, myself and our Club Secretary.

Brian - NBSC

[jrhz06]

You guys are aware that STOP isn't free. The club has to pay for them to be on your trails. Our club paid a ridiculous amount for them last year. I would much prefer to see OPP and/or Trail Patrol on our clubs trails as neither of those add cost to the club. Possibly if OFSC would cover the cost of STOP I'd be more receptive to having them on our trails.

[oldtimer]

From past experience the STOP in an area would get prior approval from a district/club for out of pocket expenses the same as any volunteer with a club is entitled to. The OPP don't always have enough manpower to cover trails when needed and STOP helps fill the gap. Some of the Districts have voted not to pay for STOP in their area but I believe monies used to be sent to the Districts to pay for Programs such as STOP etc. but it was ultimately up to each District on what programs they decided to support financially. We used to value having STOP on the trails as we didn't have enough Trail Patrol and in addition they could actually lay charges for speeding, loud mufflers etc etc that the TRail patrol couldn't. I think they don't have to have OPP with them unless they don't have enough hours yet, but not 100% on that one. The expenses for them paid for itself in the long run IMO the same as for Trail Patrol and volunteers doing signage etc.

[Fred Quimby]

Keep in mind that typically STOP are not interested in selling passes..helping sledders who have mechanical issues..don't provide maps. So again...what does the program offer that routine OPP patrols can't offer? STOP officers do not and are not trained in RADAR operation but can assist OPP with a spot check. I'm looking at this as a cost versus benefit.

[sliders007]

There is no cost to our club for STOP. Our special constables are volunteers riding their machines with their fuel and oil. THere appears to be wide range of practices if some club are compensating their STOP. Our STOP focuses on issues that are important to the club such as permits and loud exhaust. The cost beneift is positive when you have volunteers working on behalf of the club at no cost to the club.

[Fred Quimby]

There is no cost to our club for STOP. Our special constables are volunteers riding their machines with their fuel and oil. THere appears to be wide range of practices if some club are compensating their STOP. Our STOP focuses on issues that are important to the club such as permits and loud exhaust. The cost beneift is positive when you have volunteers working on behalf of the club at no cost to the club.

That is the exception rather than the norm then, or so it seems. From what I've seen and heard that is one of the reasons that many clubs are no longer utilizing STOP on their local systems. Too high a bill being submitted. I can tell you our club got a fairly high bill last year for STOP presence and some other clubs got billed not only for the usual, mileage, oil, but also overnight accommodation when the STOP patrol stayed over in an area. This all contradicts the statement the OFSC made that STOP is to be funded by the OFSC so that all clubs will have access to their services. Seems it the wheel fell off somewhere. Many clubs just can't foot the bill.

[oldtimer]

Just a thought that someone at the club level must have authorized the expense for STOP last year. Most clubs have policies in place to get approval of expenses and if the expense is as high as you say then I would think the STOP officers would have got prior approval before submitting an expense form for that much money. The directors would have to vote to pay an invoice or expense form. But again, that's just my opinion. I do know in fact that some Districts put money into a pot to pay for programs such as STOP, trail patrol, VIA, trail audits etc etc. so perhaps your District doesn't. Ours used to get an estimate of the upcoming expenses for the year to budget for each program, but I have not been as deeply involved the past couple of years. Like I mentioned before, some areas do not have the OPP force available or even trained to provide coverage so that's where the STOP come in. I believe the benefits far outweigh any costs involved. Just to show your community that you try to provide safe trails would be worth it.

[Fred Quimby]

Just a thought that someone at the club level must have authorized the expense for STOP last year. Most clubs have policies in place to get approval of expenses and if the expense is as high as you say then I would think the STOP officers would have got prior approval before submitting an expense form for that much money. The directors would have to vote to pay an invoice or expense form. But again, that's just my opinion. I do know in fact that some Districts put money into a pot to pay for programs such as STOP, trail patrol, VIA, trail audits etc etc. so perhaps your District doesn't. Ours used to get an estimate of the upcoming expenses for the year to budget for each program, but I have not been as deeply involved the past couple of years. Like I mentioned before, some areas do not have the OPP force available or even trained to provide coverage so that's where the STOP come in. I believe the benefits far outweigh any costs involved. Just to show your community that you try to provide safe trails would be worth it.

Very fair comments.

Locally we told our STOP to tone down the expenses this year as to not have a repeat of last year. It was excessive based on 8 weeks of open trails. Without details they basically would have had to have been out almost daily for an eight week season to accrue the bill we were presented with. Ouch!

There is also a difference on how some of the STOP Officers approach and do their jobs too. It's all in the presentation and level of professionalism.

[sliders007]

That is the exception rather than the norm then, or so it seems. From what I've seen and heard that is one of the reasons that many clubs are no longer utilizing STOP on their local systems. Too high a bill being submitted. I can tell you our club got a fairly high bill last year for STOP presence and some other clubs got billed not only for the usual, mileage, oil, but also overnight accommodation when the STOP patrol stayed over in an area. This all contradicts the statement the OFSC made that STOP is to be funded by the OFSC so that all clubs will have access to their services. Seems it the wheel fell off somewhere. Many clubs just can't foot the bill.

The STOP equipment was provided by the OFSC. Our club didn't pay anything. As "oldtimer" noted, the practice of some volunteers submitting bills is a local club decision and as you say, we may be an exception. We don't pay our Trail Patrol members either, just can't afford all these expenses. We never went down the path of paying our volunteers, they really are volunteering their service to the club.

I can see your concern with the benefit to the club for expense compensation.

[02Sled]

I as did a couple of other members of our club look at taking the STOP program training. I obvioulsy can't speak for the others but for me I couldn't dedicate the fairly significant time required for the training program this year. Perhaps next year. I approached this as a volunteer and didn't see anywhere that this was a paid or expense paid situation. Getting paid is news to me. Even for expenses but then again each club approaches things differently it seems when it comes to approved expenses. Much like TP I wouldn't expect to be paid.

[traillover]

Keep in mind that typically STOP are not interested in selling passes..helping sledders who have mechanical issues..don't provide maps. So again...what does the program offer that routine OPP patrols can't offer? STOP officers do not and are not trained in RADAR operation but can assist OPP with a spot check. I'm looking at this as a cost versus benefit.

STOP is very interested in making sure every rider has a permit since there's so many freeloaders. I heard some are trained in Radar and they are all special

constables. Since the OPP have manpowers issues,they can't always have officers on the trail. I heard STOP is a safety program to help prevent Impaired drivers and

other trail infractions. When riders see them I think it helps. I also heard they are NOT paid, just reimbursed for expenses.

[Fred Quimby]

STOP is very interested in making sure every rider has a permit since there's so many freeloaders. I heard some are trained in Radar and they are all special

constables. Since the OPP have manpowers issues,they can't always have officers on the trail. I heard STOP is a safety program to help prevent Impaired drivers and

other trail infractions. When riders see them I think it helps. I also heard they are NOT paid, just reimbursed for expenses.

They may be interested in the enforcement end of writing an infraction but they don't sell passes. From what I understand their mandate is not to pursue, or attempt to stop speed violators. Their powers were restricted a couple years ago due to a dispute with the OPP and are now relegated to having authority within 30 m of an OFSC trail only. Yes... The program was born out of Sudbury..I believe from a string of impaired related incidents on OFSC trails. However they are not breath techs, and only can assist the OPP with many duties.

Again...I am trying to identify from area to area why there is so much variance in why STOP remits expenses and sometimes does not. Then again...why are some expenses very high and others seemingly reasonable?? All at the end of the day when the intent was to have the OFSC pay the entire shot to maintain consistent application across the Province. I don't believe they are paid either.

[FreezerBurnt]

Very fair comments.

Locally we told our STOP to tone down the expenses this year as to not have a repeat of last year. It was excessive based on 8 weeks of open trails. Without details they basically would have had to have been out almost daily for an eight week season to accrue the bill we were presented with. Ouch!

There is also a difference on how some of the STOP Officers approach and do their jobs too. It's all in the presentation and level of professionalism.

the ones in Sudbury are top notch in presentation and professionalism

I happen to know a couple of them personally and they are not your keystone ./mall cops, they take their job seriously and provide a great service

[dweese]

There is also a difference on how some of the STOP Officers approach and do their jobs too. It's all in the presentation and level of professionalism.

Only ever seen one STOP guy... Was stopped in Bancroft for lunch, sled was parked at the Best Western and I had walked over to McD's. for those who don't know, that's almost a km off the trail, over a river crossing that is not an OFSC bridge.

Came back there he was checking out my sled. He started out nice and friendl, as did I. Told me I had a nice sled, than he pointed to the permit and asked if I had paperwork to back it up. Said sure did, everything is legit. That's when he became and ass. He put out his hand and said prove it, and I want your driver's lic, ownership and INS card as well. Well nothing I hate more than someone who thinks they have power over people when they don't. In a nice way I basically told him to pack sand, I was nowhere near an OFSC trail, so he had no right to be asking me anything. He said if I didn't comply with his request, he could call the OPP, and they would charge me. I offered him my phone, and about 5 minutes of him acting like a 2 year old grunting and giving me the stink eye, he finally left.

[Mossy]

We don't need that kind of behaviour from these people!

[02Sled]

We don't need that kind of behaviour from these people!

X2 - Everyone deserves to be treated with respect in both directions. TP/OPP/STOP or rider.

[Fred Quimby]

That's what gives them a bad name...but respect works both ways.

They have zero authority anywhere beyond 30m from a trail.

[soupkids]

That's what gives them a bad name...but respect works both ways.

They have zero authority anywhere beyond 30m from a trail.

They have 100% authority under the MSVA and TP to property act.

[Fred Quimby]

They have 100% authority under the MSVA and TP to property act.

Yes..but only on or within 30m of a prescribed trail. Not on a highway, lake or anything over 30m in distance off of a prescribed trail. I never questioned under what acts they had authority.

[oldtimer]

Yes..but only on or within 30m of a prescribed trail. Not on a highway, lake or anything over 30m in distance off of a prescribed trail. I never questioned under what acts they had authority.

But that's where they need the authority. why do they need authority more than 30m off a trail when it's on the trail that they are supposed to be enforcing the laws. I know there are always a couple of wanna be's out there but no more than some TP that get a little carried away with their authority. I can imagine most riders slow down alot quicker when they see the uniform of the STOP officers than they do when they see the TP. Also the STOP likely carry a bit more weight with their charges when faced with a failure to produce from a rider with no permit because they do have the endorsement of the OPP.