FreezerBurnt Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 Exactly Jay! Why bother to buy an advert' on the club's/district's paper map or trailside map board when sledders can see the business from the trail. Someone asked me a few years ago about adding a trail supporter code to my accommodation guide. I declined as it could be hard to define a supporter. A business may not buy an ad, but may help behind the scenes. yet on here and other sites, most want all business on the GPS interactive map even if they do not sponsor clubs IMO you are killing the hand that feeds you just for convenience Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AkronOrange Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 The ones in Canada or the US? (only being slightly facetious) Sorry. Should have said "insert your liberal politician here". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
revrnd Posted January 21, 2011 Author Share Posted January 21, 2011 Sorry. Should have said "insert your liberal politician here". No offense taken. During the last US election it wasn't uncommon to see "Obama '08" bumper stickers in southern Ontario & the cars didn't have US plates either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ox Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 No offense taken. During the last US election it wasn't uncommon to see "Obama '08" bumper stickers in southern Ontario & the cars didn't have US plates either. Hey there FreezerBurnt I think that avatar fits you good. BTW - did you move? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FreezerBurnt Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 Hey there FreezerBurnt I think that avatar fits you good. BTW - did you move? Ya I am in Winnipeg Manitoba now I got a better avatar and its really me,can't upload it here though This is what happens when its 32c and too many beers with a touch of boredom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
revrnd Posted January 22, 2011 Author Share Posted January 22, 2011 Here's the reply from the District 16 office: The only trails that are closed permanently this year are D109A, D110A and A107A. These trails are not even shown on the interactive trail guide. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AkronOrange Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 Here's the reply from the District 16 office: Last year was a bust for A107A - no snow. I do have a phone number of a local that will break trail from Longlac to Klotz. We'll have to see what happens over the next couple of years. This is the first year I can remember the D109A being closed, this really limits the loops available. You have to head north through Dub'ville, "D" trail has always been a crapshoot on sufficient snowfall. Ride Safe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snobaron Posted January 24, 2011 Share Posted January 24, 2011 Hi, more or less new to the scene here.. I live in MN but have a place outside TB so a vested interested in snowmobiling in Ontario.. Couple of background questions for me.. How are trails funded in Ontario? Strictly by the permit sales or is there also a general fund? In Minnesota here, where we're spoiled with 20,000miles of trails, clubs are reimbursed for grooming by the mileage they cover. Is this a possibility in Ontario? Seems to be more fair as the North is large and covers great distances. It reduces the us vs them from the populated areas to the less populated areas. Also, there is a dedicated gas tax here. I have no idea what the snowmobile registration numbers are in Ontario, but I think in MN it's somewhere around 150k. The gas tax is something like 1/2 of .01 cent goes into a dedicated snowmobile fund. That money then is used to reimburse the clubs for grooming. I would have to guess there's at least 150k sleds in Ontario registered. just getting a buck or so from gas stops would greatly help the funding pot. Trail permits sold by the state is money that then is used for trail development, maintenance, bridges, etc.. I dont know if any of these would ever work in Ontario? The dedicated gas tax has always seemed like a fair way as we all know it's a huge cost in this sport, especially if you're trailering your sleds to different locations to ride. Imo, areas without loops will be nothing more than pass thru areas or maybe a pitstop and go area. I know when we plan trips here, we always look for an area where we can do one loop one day, different loop the next, etc. No one really wants to run back and forth on the same trail. It's unfortunate that the main trails [TOP trails?] can't have spurs off of them that do loops into backcountry, etc.. The TB area has me befuddled. I can't believe the largest city in the North doesn't have a hub or a way to pass around it and maybe into the periphery. I realize the land is mostly private but thru the use of ditches and maybe some generous landowners, I would certainly think there'd be a way to get around. THen you could have some places near the edge of town where locals could leave from. This was the biggest surprise to us after we bought our place that there basically is no trail system in the area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
revrnd Posted January 24, 2011 Author Share Posted January 24, 2011 No gas tax here in Ontario. I have heard of what you're talking about in the American sledding mags. I don't know if sled registration money is set aside for helping sledding or goes into the big toilet known as "General Revenues". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
700renegade Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 No gas tax here in Ontario. I have heard of what you're talking about in the American sledding mags. I don't know if sled registration money is set aside for helping sledding or goes into the big toilet known as "General Revenues". No gas tax in Ontario..... You have to be kidding right? Our taxes are built into the price ( roughly $0.50/gal ) as I'm sure yours are. Minnesota surveys the registered snowmobile owners about miles per year and miles per gallon and from that calculates how many gallons of total fuel went thru the snowmobile fleet. From there they determine the taxes that are diverted from the highway fund to the snowmobile trail fund. ( if you are in MN and ever get a survey make sure the miles are high and MPG low! ). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
revrnd Posted January 25, 2011 Author Share Posted January 25, 2011 No gas tax in Ontario..... You have to be kidding right? Our taxes are built into the price ( roughly $0.50/gal ) as I'm sure yours are. Minnesota surveys the registered snowmobile owners about miles per year and miles per gallon and from that calculates how many gallons of total fuel went thru the snowmobile fleet. From there they determine the taxes that are diverted from the highway fund to the snowmobile trail fund. ( if you are in MN and ever get a survey make sure the miles are high and MPG low! ). I should been more explicit. There is gas tax, but none is directed to the trails. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dweese Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 No gas tax in Ontario..... You have to be kidding right? Our taxes are built into the price ( roughly $0.50/gal ) as I'm sure yours are. Minnesota surveys the registered snowmobile owners about miles per year and miles per gallon and from that calculates how many gallons of total fuel went thru the snowmobile fleet. From there they determine the taxes that are diverted from the highway fund to the snowmobile trail fund. ( if you are in MN and ever get a survey make sure the miles are high and MPG low! ). Yes, we have gas tax, its in the area of 35% of the price, and there is a 13% tax on top of the gas tax built in to the price at the pump. But sadly non of it goes to the trail system. Sounds like a great idea mind you. To redirect some of the gas tax, not to add a new tax in the winter... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
revrnd Posted January 26, 2011 Author Share Posted January 26, 2011 How long has MN had that system? Do any of the other snowbelt states have a similiar method to help fund the trails? Mind you in Ontario another money sucking bureaucracy would be created (eGasTaxToTrails sounds good) that would cost more to operate than the amount tax money being transferred to the OFSC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skidooboy Posted January 26, 2011 Share Posted January 26, 2011 michigan has similar add'l funding help. trail permits, and fuel tax. ski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ox Posted January 26, 2011 Share Posted January 26, 2011 Yeah - Mich is same way, but it's not like The Queen doesn't support the north nor the trails. I believe that most of the BIG bridges in the north came from The Queen. I don't think the OFSC had much to doo with any of those. Please correct me if I'm wrong. This could be a bridge specific issue, but I'm pretty sure the skidoo clubs didn't have much $ invested in the Pic River bridge that was well over 7 digits. I'm guessing the French and the Pikeral were about the same $ and likely pd for the same way. ??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LuvMyViper Posted January 26, 2011 Share Posted January 26, 2011 It sure is depressing to know that OFSC has the ability to make a difference but refuse to listen. Agreed!!! And.. I found a red. oc.com hat the other night with the name Snowberg on the side.. PM me your name and address etc. and I will mail it to you (free).... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
revrnd Posted January 27, 2011 Author Share Posted January 27, 2011 This could be a bridge specific issue, but I'm pretty sure the skidoo clubs didn't have much $ invested in the Pic River bridge that was well over 7 digits. I'm guessing the French and the Pikeral were about the same $ and likely pd for the same way. ??? Not sure about the Pic River bridge funding, but I do recall seeing signs @ the Pickerel River bridge & there were graphics for the funding agencies. FedNor MAY have been 1 agency. Rich should know more. I thought I had some pics I had taken when I stopped on a road trip thru the area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snow voyageur Posted January 27, 2011 Share Posted January 27, 2011 Not sure about the Pic River bridge funding, but I do recall seeing signs @ the Pickerel River bridge & there were graphics for the funding agencies. FedNor MAY have been 1 agency. Rich should know more. I thought I had some pics I had taken when I stopped on a road trip thru the area. as far as the club not paying for anything, that is not correct, the club supplied the labor to install all the decking on the bridges when they were built and came up with a substantial donation towards the bridges , the club is also on the hook for certifying both bridges to the tune of $6000.00 a year mandated by the mto, and the ofsc will not help with any funding, this is from a club that only sells about 85 permits per year. you do the math. i think the numbers were closer to $800 for the pic and $1.2 for the french. it took almost ten years for the funding to come into place and countless man hours by the person the french river bridge is named after Bill Smalls and pic bridge was dedicated to a long time club volinteer that passed ron macgilvary i do know this, if the ofsc does not step in and start funding the matinance, the club will fold and then you will see them get taken down, that would be a great loss to sledding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
revrnd Posted January 27, 2011 Author Share Posted January 27, 2011 Snow Voyageur, I was not implying that the clubs had nothing to do w/ the fundraising. I think there were several other agencies involved w/ building the bridge in addition to the local club. Sorry for any misunderstanding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sledjunk Posted January 27, 2011 Share Posted January 27, 2011 as far as the club not paying for anything, that is not correct, the club supplied the labor to install all the decking on the bridges when they were built and came up with a substantial donation towards the bridges , the club is also on the hook for certifying both bridges to the tune of $6000.00 a year mandated by the mto, and the ofsc will not help with any funding, this is from a club that only sells about 85 permits per year. you do the math. i think the numbers were closer to $800 for the pic and $1.2 for the french. it took almost ten years for the funding to come into place and countless man hours by the person the french river bridge is named after Bill Smalls and pic bridge was dedicated to a long time club volinteer that passed ron macgilvary i do know this, if the ofsc does not step in and start funding the matinance, the club will fold and then you will see them get taken down, that would be a great loss to sledding. I think that there is a little confusion here. I don't think the Pic River Bridge referred to above is the Pickerel River Bridge. The Pic River is in District 16. BTW, I have ridden the French & Pickerel River bridges and they are spectacular. And they would be a HUGE loss if they were lost!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snow voyageur Posted January 27, 2011 Share Posted January 27, 2011 its all good boy's, need more snow so we all can ride and stay off the computers. happy sledding Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snobaron Posted January 30, 2011 Share Posted January 30, 2011 How long has MN had that system? Do any of the other snowbelt states have a similiar method to help fund the trails? Mind you in Ontario another money sucking bureaucracy would be created (eGasTaxToTrails sounds good) that would cost more to operate than the amount tax money being transferred to the OFSC. Here's the entire story from the DNR website.. In 1973 the Minnesota Legislature delegated the responsibility of administering a cost-sharing program for the development and maintenance of snowmobile trails to the Department of Natural Resources (DNR). The goal of this program was the creation and maintenance of locally initiated trails that were financially assisted by the state. This program is popularly known as the grants-in-aid program or simply the GIA program. The DNR has been delegated the responsibility of administering the funds appropriated by the legislature for the GIA program. Minnesota's GIA snowmobile trail system has grown to over 21,000 miles. The Minnesota Snowmobile Trails Assistance Program provides funding mostly for maintenance and grooming, though capital improvement grants for snowmobile trails are also available. ----------- The exact methodology for grooming reimbursement is in at this link- http://files.dnr.state.mn.us/assistance/grants/recreation/giafundingstructure07.pdf ------ ALso, it seems the OFSC isn't represented on this website? It seems silly not to have at least a liaison available here... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klotz Lake Camp Posted February 6, 2011 Share Posted February 6, 2011 Its when you need to justify the existance of certain trails because you don't have enough paying riders to keep them open. Such as what is happening in the north. I will comment on this, given I'm right in the middle of it. Firstly, thanks to Akron Orange and Snoberg - without you guys I would've closed my doors in the winter many years ago. Anyway, the Longlac club sold (I think) about 32 trail permits last year. That's it. The Geraldton Club was about the same. Obviously these numbers weren't enough to get any OFSC money. So, the Greenstone Loop has been kept open thanks to the hard work from a few local guys, but nothing else connnecting this area is open. They had 66 sleds for their Greenstone Poker Rally on Saturday. Many of the local riders like it - they don't have to buy permits and they can sled just about anywhere they want. I heard the same thing from the ED in Manitowadge. The businesses are the ones that are losing out - not the local riders. They are also the ones that should "kick in" a little, but they barely have enough money to stay in business, let alone contribute to the trails. It's a difficult situation for all. I am working with the Longlac Chamber of Commerce and hopefully next year we will have more "organized" help for the Snow Clubs in the area. It's too bad too - we have such great snow this year. We have over 90 cm here and it keeps coming! Anyway, thanks to all you die-hard riders out there that care about the north. We appreciate it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildbill Posted February 6, 2011 Share Posted February 6, 2011 as far as the club not paying for anything, that is not correct, the club supplied the labor to install all the decking on the bridges when they were built and came up with a substantial donation towards the bridges , the club is also on the hook for certifying both bridges to the tune of $6000.00 a year mandated by the mto, and the ofsc will not help with any funding, this is from a club that only sells about 85 permits per year. you do the math. i think the numbers were closer to $800 for the pic and $1.2 for the french. it took almost ten years for the funding to come into place and countless man hours by the person the french river bridge is named after Bill Smalls and pic bridge was dedicated to a long time club volinteer that passed ron macgilvary i do know this, if the ofsc does not step in and start funding the matinance, the club will fold and then you will see them get taken down, that would be a great loss to sledding. The funding should come from the local economic development NOT the OFSC this would open up a torrent of funding requests that would quicly paralyze what little ability the OFSC has. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snowberg Posted February 6, 2011 Share Posted February 6, 2011 I will comment on this, given I'm right in the middle of it. Firstly, thanks to Akron Orange and Snoberg - without you guys I would've closed my doors in the winter many years ago. Anyway, the Longlac club sold (I think) about 32 trail permits last year. That's it. The Geraldton Club was about the same. Obviously these numbers weren't enough to get any OFSC money. So, the Greenstone Loop has been kept open thanks to the hard work from a few local guys, but nothing else connnecting this area is open. They had 66 sleds for their Greenstone Poker Rally on Saturday. Many of the local riders like it - they don't have to buy permits and they can sled just about anywhere they want. I heard the same thing from the ED in Manitowadge. The businesses are the ones that are losing out - not the local riders. They are also the ones that should "kick in" a little, but they barely have enough money to stay in business, let alone contribute to the trails. It's a difficult situation for all. I am working with the Longlac Chamber of Commerce and hopefully next year we will have more "organized" help for the Snow Clubs in the area. It's too bad too - we have such great snow this year. We have over 90 cm here and it keeps coming! Anyway, thanks to all you die-hard riders out there that care about the north. We appreciate it! Thanks for the hug Toni, we mis you already Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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