Snowberg Posted January 16, 2011 Share Posted January 16, 2011 Its when you need to justify the existance of certain trails because you don't have enough paying riders to keep them open. Such as what is happening in the north. There are enough paying riders, thats my point. The money just needs to be spread out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FreezerBurnt Posted January 16, 2011 Share Posted January 16, 2011 Then perhaps they need to do a little trail rationalization. as mentionned there is only one trail,can't really rationalize that My thing is why should locals be concerned for that one trail If I live in that area I would want local trails vs a main trail in and out of town, this IMO is a huge reason why locals don't buy permits This is a 3 fold problem A-locals want their $$$ going towards local trails vs one,why should I pay for a trail that goes one way or another B-touring riders want to be about to ride through that town/those towns to get to the next as the TOP trails interconnect C-riders in the south that never see those trails do not want there $$$ funding a trail that serves few Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AkronOrange Posted January 16, 2011 Share Posted January 16, 2011 as mentionned there is only one trail,can't really rationalize that My thing is why should locals be concerned for that one trail If I live in that area I would want local trails vs a main trail in and out of town, this IMO is a huge reason why locals don't buy permits This is a 3 fold problem A-locals want their $$$ going towards local trails vs one,why should I pay for a trail that goes one way or another B-touring riders want to be about to ride through that town/those towns to get to the next as the TOP trails interconnect C-riders in the south that never see those trails do not want there $$$ funding a trail that serves few I agree and understand. That is where the OFSC comes in and, to my dismay, perhaps they have and this is their decision. Again, I'll express it another way. As the trails disappear so does the infrastructure. If riders don't come, the fuel, lodging and fuel will become even less available. Now that A107A is closed what reason at all does Klotz Lake need to be available? How difficult does that make it to reopen the trail? There are similar situations throughout the Ontario, we rely on the great people at these small places like; Shining Tree, Halfway Haven, Hillsport and Fraserdale just to name a few. Anyone remember the people at Thor Lake? Without them in the late 90's many sleds would not have been able to make it to the next fuel stop. The OFSC is the body that needs to choose how to distribute the trail dollars and not everyone can be satisfied with all of the decisions, and perhaps the direction will be to eliminate the touring aspect of the sport. It seems a terrible waste but at the same time I am/was fortunate to be one of the people that were able to enjoy the beauty of the areas and the wonderful hardworking people. Ride Safe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bucking Pig Posted January 16, 2011 Share Posted January 16, 2011 as mentionned there is only one trail,can't really rationalize that My thing is why should locals be concerned for that one trail If I live in that area I would want local trails vs a main trail in and out of town, this IMO is a huge reason why locals don't buy permits This is a 3 fold problem A-locals want their $$$ going towards local trails vs one,why should I pay for a trail that goes one way or another B-touring riders want to be about to ride through that town/those towns to get to the next as the TOP trails interconnect C-riders in the south that never see those trails do not want there $$$ funding a trail that serves few Very eloquently stated. I recall when we were creating the trails in the 90's around here. That was the local's main desire, and ours as a club. Even before our area's devastaing economic crisis, the club had to "Rationalize" down to the one TOP trail. Add in permit price hikes and the economic downturn and we lost a lot of the locals, which has led to the current situation where the club has folded and even the TOP trail has been "Rationalized" BP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FreezerBurnt Posted January 16, 2011 Share Posted January 16, 2011 I agree and understand. That is where the OFSC comes in and, to my dismay, perhaps they have and this is their decision. Again, I'll express it another way. As the trails disappear so does the infrastructure. If riders don't come, the fuel, lodging and fuel will become even less available. Now that A107A is closed what reason at all does Klotz Lake need to be available? How difficult does that make it to reopen the trail? There are similar situations throughout the Ontario, we rely on the great people at these small places like; Shining Tree, Halfway Haven, Hillsport and Fraserdale just to name a few. Anyone remember the people at Thor Lake? Without them in the late 90's many sleds would not have been able to make it to the next fuel stop. The OFSC is the body that needs to choose how to distribute the trail dollars and not everyone can be satisfied with all of the decisions, and perhaps the direction will be to eliminate the touring aspect of the sport. It seems a terrible waste but at the same time I am/was fortunate to be one of the people that were able to enjoy the beauty of the areas and the wonderful hardworking people. Ride Safe This is where the PROVINCE needs to step up to the plate and realize this not really the OFSC IMO. The is OFSC is a non profit org ran by volounteers for the most part and $$$ is limited Here is a classic example where the province can help Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Classic Posted January 16, 2011 Share Posted January 16, 2011 There are enough paying riders, thats my point. The money just needs to be spread out. Apparently there isn't or they wouldn't be looking for extra $$$ all the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
revrnd Posted January 17, 2011 Author Share Posted January 17, 2011 perhaps the direction will be to eliminate the touring aspect of the sport. For what? The weekend warrior/sno x wannabe types of the GTA that plague central Ontario during the weekends? It seems a terrible waste but at the same time I am/was fortunate to be one of the people that were able to enjoy the beauty of the areas and the wonderful hardworking people. X2 Mark me down as another that feels fortunate to be able to ride up in the real north. We were looking @ the Interactive Trail Guide today & it shows TOP A between Geraldton & TOP as red or CLOSED. Is this portion of TOP A still part of the system or not? The 2011 OFSC Provincial Trail Guide omits this trail (like the District 16 mapette). If it has been rationalized it seems strange that it would be included in the Interactive Trail Guide. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bucking Pig Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 Revrnd; I really wish I could answer your question. District 16 is in shambles, from what I can see. The Nipigon club has folded, not sure about the Terrace Bay Club. As far as I know the Geraldton and Longlac clubs are still hanging in. Best bet would be to contact the District or the individual clubs to find out what's happening. As far a solution, I think FreezerBurnt has the best answer so far? BP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AkronOrange Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 Revrnd; I really wish I could answer your question. District 16 is in shambles, from what I can see. The Nipigon club has folded, not sure about the Terrace Bay Club. As far as I know the Geraldton and Longlac clubs are still hanging in. Best bet would be to contact the District or the individual clubs to find out what's happening. As far a solution, I think FreezerBurnt has the best answer so far? BP I can tell you that if you send an email to District 16, it will be answered. She ( I forget her name, Danielle?) will give you the names and contact information for all of the area contacts. If you want to try and contact OFSC, they will also give you an answer. Guess what: if you don't contact anyone - they won't answer. I still think that everyone, the OFSC, the districts, and the clubs still care about what we all think. It's our responsibility to tell them. Regardless of where you ride - Ride Safe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
revrnd Posted January 18, 2011 Author Share Posted January 18, 2011 I fired an email off to the OFSC today. Expanding on my loop theory, I think if the OFSC wants sledders to travel in the area & trail rationalisation is necessary, this could be a possibility: Reopen A107A & D109A Terminate TOP A @ Geraldton Terminate TOP D @ D109A jct. This plan provides loops west of the Hearst/D'ville route which sledders would be more likely to travel to White River, M'wadge & the Greenstone area. W/o out loops to mix things up, sledders will just ride TOP A & D108A between D'ville & Hearst. Any other ideas? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ox Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 109 is always subject to low snow. That whole N of Superior area is a hit/miss place. If they don't git any real storm systems moving through - they can go dry as they don't generally git much lake effect. 109 should be an easy trail to maintain I would think, but maybe it was all small growth when I was there. It's been over 10 yrs since I was through there, but I know it seemed to all be open. Even if it was buried replant - a trail in a young tree stand should be very easy to keep eh? 107 - We have never been through Longlac yet. Been east and west of there, just not right in town, but we hardly ever seen another sled at all! There just aint much traffic up there - even during good economy, and good trails. A dozen Yanks just aint gunna justify it - no matter how much we want it to. Also - the whole lack of motels and restraunts these days only adds considerably to the problems! 6 weeks of skidooers doesn't keep these places open either. It may be a shot in the arm, but they need to have local need first. It would be nice to be able to loop all thw way to Nippigon and back down the D. But the A trail sucks as far as I'm concerned. Worth dooing once to say that you did, but pipeline aint my cup'o tea! I love D! From searchmont to Gravel River is all the further I have been, but it looks to be the same all the way to Nippigon! Toronto spent what ??? 1.5M Loonies ??? to build that big bridge over the Pic River (Mostly doo to the loss of a groomer operator (and a second one that has got to be perpetually cold these days) back in the day) and not many git accrost it. I have seen it from the rd, but I haven't crossed the river since it was put in. And I would still cross at the river probably just b/c I'm a purist... Pretty sure they aint seen enywhere's near the traffic to justify that either. Worse yet - I have seen bridges in that area closed for anythng other than snowmachines. Maybe 6 weeks the trails are "open" and 8 months that you could tour the area on ATV's. Does it really matter what your machine is? It's still all the same... and many are the very same people too! http://www.superiortrailbridges.com/200%2B.htm . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
revrnd Posted January 18, 2011 Author Share Posted January 18, 2011 Ox, when we rode D109A from M'wadge to TOP D in '09, we had no issues w/ brush or obstacles on the trail. I guess my thinking is if the riding in the area means riding back & forth on the same trail, most sledders are going to avoid it. I'm not a fan of the "scorched earth" approach, but I can't see riding out TOP A to Longlac, then turning around & riding back to Hornepayne the same way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skidooboy Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 i've been watching this thread a few days trying to put my perspective without hurting too many people. so here goes it... really, when you look at it. it is more than a monetary problem. it is volunteers, clubs, and communities. all three are dwindling in the north of superior region. hard to do anything, when you have only a few doing all the work, then they also get the complaints too. in reality the ofsc trails up there are really a thankless task. there are those of us who support, and appreciate the hard work that goes in to keeping the trails for sledders. but sadly, there are not enough of us (u.s or canadian residents) to support this much longer without a REAL economic turn around. population, services, and trail permit sales are all on the down turn, and dont appear to be comming back anytime soon. if you dont have the population, you cant justify local or regional trails. if you have limited or no services, you have no way for anyone to stay, or pass through an area. and the permit sales, and matrix the ofsc has in place, just doesnt support this type of down turn unfortunately so, something has to give. with every family, business, govt ect... you have to tighten your belt and curb spending to survive rough monetary times. this is one of those times. and unfortunately again.... there looks to be no quick end, or turn around. some trails and maybe even some regions will lose there regional trails, temporarily or maybe even permenantly. areas that have invested into local loops, and destinations will survive without linking regional trails until things can rebound financially. the reason they can do that is, they have a destination where you can trailer to, and ride multiple local loops for multiple days, and still enjoy a region for a multiple day trip, by day riding with a home base of operations. and returning to that base each evening. wawa, dubreuilville, hornepayne, the sault, hearst, and other larger community regions east of the big lake all have these options. manitouwadge has the option as well but, are hurting for volunteers, services, and support. white river, marathon, longlac, are really struggling because very few stop and stay in these areas. they are just towns everyone passes through to get to somewhere else. the greenstone area is a great idea with a very dedicated group trying to hold onto there piece of the pie but, it is just too far for most to venture to on a regular basis. those that cant maintain there current club, and region for tourists, need to look at gaining support locally, by offering the locals more reason to buy permits AND helping the club/region, grow and hang on to what they have before they lose it. because we all see the writing on the wall..... big loops in this region are on the brink of extermination. as someone said earlier in the thread, this may be the last year for this up there. and that would be sad but, to keep this large system in place... we need more than a handfull of help, and riders to frequent these areas to justify their existance to more than just local loops. the southern groups dont want to see their monies going to the north, due to them not utilizing the area. the north gets mad because they have a small population that deserve the same help, and recreational outlet that those in the south enjoy. but, have no large voice to be heard to get the funding and help they need to maintain a "promised provincial trail network". it is a vicious cycle, and some areas are going to lose unfortunatley. when the locals lose their trail system even for local loops, that is when the complaining will start. but no one really sees "if you have time to complain, YOU HAVE TIME TO HELP. if there is no help, communities will lose their trails. it is as simple as that. so if you want to keep the trails EVERYONE, has to help. i dont have the fix, nor claim to know where to start except to say, we need more help, physically and financially. lots of "volunteers" are "forced" into the trail system because they, "own a business", or are gulited into helping for fear of losing the local support. i think that is BS. those communities that use these tactics in these northern regions should be ashamed of what they are reaping from the work of so few. maybe when the trails are gone, some will see what they have done by sitting by, watching from the sidelines offering little or no help. but.... i doubt that too. it will only give them more to complain about. i really hope something can be done but, we all need to look at the reality of the situation. there may be no fix for this at this time. and we may have to revisit touring and a COMPLETE PROVINCIAL TRAIL SYSTEM, later when the economy and population allow for it. ski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Classic Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 I fired an email off to the OFSC today. Expanding on my loop theory, I think if the OFSC wants sledders to travel in the area & trail rationalisation is necessary, this could be a possibility: Reopen A107A & D109A Terminate TOP A @ Geraldton Terminate TOP D @ D109A jct. This plan provides loops west of the Hearst/D'ville route which sledders would be more likely to travel to White River, M'wadge & the Greenstone area. W/o out loops to mix things up, sledders will just ride TOP A & D108A between D'ville & Hearst. Any other ideas? Its not up to the OFSC to open or close trails. That is a club and district decision. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ox Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 so if you want to keep the trails EVERYONE, has to help. i dont have the fix, nor claim to know where to start except to say, we need more help, physically and financially. lots of "volunteers" are "forced" into the trail system because they, "own a business", or are gulited into helping for fear of losing the local support. i think that is BS. those communities that use these tactics in these northern regions should be ashamed of what they are reaping from the work of so few. maybe when the trails are gone, some will see what they have done by sitting by, watching from the sidelines offering little or no help. ski I am not quite following along with what you are trying to convey here. ??? You don't think that the owners of the local restraunts, gas bars, and motels should be counted on to doo a considerable amount of the work? And if they are too busy to physically help - then maybe donate to the couse, or pay someone else to hop in the groomer in thier place now and aggin? You seem to bounce around on both sides of this issue here. Not sure what you mean, or if maybe you twisted some werds around? OR - I guess it could be that I just aint hearing you right. Either way - I am ??? As for the Greenstone area... That's Nippigon eh? I don't git it? Does no-one in TB sled? I know the town is not sled freaindly - making anyone who rides to hafta trailer out of town for the last many yrs. But the A trail east from Nippigon seems to hardly see any sleds! When we were up that way about 5 yrs ago, we cought up to A W of Geraldton on a friday night. Trail was perfectly flat and wide, with several cm of powder on top, and NOT ONE track on it! We rode into Geraldton for the night. The next day we headed west, and all day we saw one MNR guy, and three sleds from TB heading east. That was it! It would seem that TB would (should) have enough traffic to justify this area all by itself. ??? The pipeline is an easy trail to groom and next to nothing to maintain other than a bridge here or maybe there. D east is a completely diff deal, but there are some small towns down there that would seem to want to ride it. ??? Other than the Pig, I never see anyone post anything about trails - or even just riding from anyone west of Klotz I don't think. ??? There is a LOT of Province west yet! Where's the people? As for monetary issues of late - I can say that I usta buy two permits/yr for the last several yrs, and at least one for <15 yrs. Add to that that we were seldom on the trails - the trail got a lot of $/km traveled from us, but that was OK. But I have not bought one since '09 season. Just not been in the cards. Besides - the trails haven't had the snow anyway, so no loss... Maybe we will be up for a weekend later? Maybe not... Hope the comming yrs offers more $, more time, and more snow. Yes Revrnd - loops are great! I agree. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skidooboy Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 ox, the greenstone area is north of longlac/geraldton, in the nakina area. i believe that everyone who enjoys the trails and it's benefits should help as much as their time allows. but i dont think they should be "forced" to help. when you are in a large area it is easier to get helpers from a larger pie. in a small berg, there are very few "volunteers" to draw from. and unfortunately there are those in the community that want to shoulder the load of the entire process, to "certain" business owners instead of the whole community who benefit from the trail systems that were created for both recreation and wintertime travel. most of the trail maintainence is done before or after normal business hours. so this means losing their own personal time, before or after regular work, with little or no compensation, other than to say, they support the trail systems. now add selling, and logistics for trail conditions, permit sales, answered phone and email questions and all the buracracy for the mnr, mto, and ofsc...... these arent volunteers, they are slaves to a system with little reward. and heaven forbid they want to ease their participation to persue other endevours, or just give their time to the family.... they are chasitized for wanting to cut back alittle. all this while the towns people look down on them for wanting what they have. (extra time, to be "normal"). look at it this way ox... lets say you run a excavating business in searchmont or wawa. you have a business to run, you want to help with the club, district, ect.... you start out meaning well, then the community, region, club, district, ask for more help, more time, more money. do you stop trying to help your business, and dedictate your life to a 'volunteer trail system" or do you look out for your family, business, and own well being and take a step back from the trail duties?????? then the community looks upon you different for "stepping away". do you see where i am comming from?????? this goes on every season, in every northern district, and town. the few that help, take the critisizm from the many who arm chair, how they could do a better job but, never seem to help. this will be the end of the system up there. if you dont beleive me, ask a few of the volunteers from wawa, dub, white river, hornepayne, manitouwadge, chapleau ect.... the volunteer base is getting older, and more tired with every passing season. and there seems to be no end to the cycle. ski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catinental couch Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 ox, the greenstone area is north of longlac/geraldton, in the nakina area. i believe that everyone who enjoys the trails and it's benefits should help as much as their time allows. but i dont think they should be "forced" to help. when you are in a large area it is easier to get helpers from a larger pie. in a small berg, there are very few "volunteers" to draw from. and unfortunately there are those in the community that want to shoulder the load of the entire process, to "certain" business owners instead of the whole community who benefit from the trail systems that were created for both recreation and wintertime travel. most of the trail maintainence is done before or after normal business hours. so this means losing their own personal time, before or after regular work, with little or no compensation, other than to say, they support the trail systems. now add selling, and logistics for trail conditions, permit sales, answered phone and email questions and all the buracracy for the mnr, mto, and ofsc...... these arent volunteers, they are slaves to a system with little reward. and heaven forbid they want to ease their participation to persue other endevours, or just give their time to the family.... they are chasitized for wanting to cut back alittle. all this while the towns people look down on them for wanting what they have. (extra time, to be "normal"). look at it this way ox... lets say you run a excavating business in searchmont or wawa. you have a business to run, you want to help with the club, district, ect.... you start out meaning well, then the community, region, club, district, ask for more help, more time, more money. do you stop trying to help your business, and dedictate your life to a 'volunteer trail system" or do you look out for your family, business, and own well being and take a step back from the trail duties?????? then the community looks upon you different for "stepping away". do you see where i am comming from?????? this goes on every season, in every northern district, and town. the few that help, take the critisizm from the many who arm chair, how they could do a better job but, never seem to help. this will be the end of the system up there. if you dont beleive me, ask a few of the volunteers from wawa, dub, white river, hornepayne, manitouwadge, chapleau ect.... the volunteer base is getting older, and more tired with every passing season. and there seems to be no end to the cycle. ski Amen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
revrnd Posted January 19, 2011 Author Share Posted January 19, 2011 How about the businesses that benefit from tourism (motels/gas stations/restaurants) that won't support the local club(s)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skidooboy Posted January 20, 2011 Share Posted January 20, 2011 rev, in a round about way, my posts show this as well. ski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AkronOrange Posted January 20, 2011 Share Posted January 20, 2011 It really is up to the Province or the OFSC to decide. Are the rewards worth the effort? What is most important; the integrity of the system or the individual needs of each district? Who do they want to be when they grow up; a bunch of small individual areas that only care about themselves, like us here in the States or one cohesive group of clubs that care about all of the trails as a whole? It is, like everything else, a business decision; how can I generate the most income for me? Until someone steps in and "helps" make those decisions, it will be every man for himself. Unless there is intervention, the north loses, and I expect this will be the case. This is only the first step in the death of our great sport. First we lose the ability to ride all of the places we love because the "weekend warriors" in the populated areas want to keep the money in their respective district, next the tree huggers will complain that the noise, the smell, the recklessness is too much of a problem for these populated areas and the trail will be lost to tree hugging freaks that drive hybrids with Obama bumper stickers. Ride Safe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
revrnd Posted January 20, 2011 Author Share Posted January 20, 2011 tree hugging freaks that drive hybrids with Obama bumper stickers. The ones in Canada or the US? (only being slightly facetious) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bucking Pig Posted January 20, 2011 Share Posted January 20, 2011 It really is up to the Province or the OFSC to decide. Are the rewards worth the effort? What is most important; the integrity of the system or the individual needs of each district? Who do they want to be when they grow up; a bunch of small individual areas that only care about themselves, like us here in the States or one cohesive group of clubs that cares about all of the trails as a whole? It is, like everything else, a business decision; how can I generate the most income for me? Until someone steps in and "helps" make those decisions, it will be every man for himself. Unless there is intervention, the north loses, and I expect this will be the case. This is only the first step in the death of our great sport. First we lose the ability to ride all of the places we love because the "riders" in the populated areas want to keep the money in their respective district, next the tree huggers will complain that the noise, the smell, the recklessness is too much of a problem for these populated areas and the trail will be lost to tree hugging freaks that drive hybrids with Obama bumper stickers. Ride Safe Good Post! BP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FreezerBurnt Posted January 20, 2011 Share Posted January 20, 2011 Question?? How long has district 16 or in any case teh district in teh north connected?? has it ever worked? Was it a pipe dream to begin with? The mid 90s seemed great everyone buying new sleds, businesses willing to sponsor clubs and trails then 10yrs ago reality hit and not as many sleds sold,business realizing they still get the business even if they no longer support the clubs Say my old club near Sudbury formed in 86 and has slowly lost most of its trails and now only has the Top D and a couple of little sections left and this is in a well populated area in 98 the OFSC was touting 49,000kms of trails as little as a few yrs ago they still touted 41,000 only to have real GPS show roughly 30,000kms is this just a reality we have to live with? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
revrnd Posted January 20, 2011 Author Share Posted January 20, 2011 business realizing they still get the business even if they no longer support the clubs Exactly Jay! Why bother to buy an advert' on the club's/district's paper map or trailside map board when sledders can see the business from the trail. Someone asked me a few years ago about adding a trail supporter code to my accommodation guide. I declined as it could be hard to define a supporter. A business may not buy an ad, but may help behind the scenes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
revrnd Posted January 20, 2011 Author Share Posted January 20, 2011 I fired an email off to the OFSC today. My email to the OFSC (admin@ofsc.on.ca) got bounced. I'm resending it to contactinfo@ofsc.on.ca (as listed on OFSC website) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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