The Groomer Guy Posted March 21, 2009 Share Posted March 21, 2009 this thread is GREENom, sandman and i will send some, (not alot) we're hurting as well. the wolf is at our kitchen table.Can you please P/M us your info. All our love ARVA. OPPS I'M NOT SUPPOSED TO DO THAT sorry SREEB haha Club Alouette Dubreuilville Inc 120 rue magpie PO Box 210 Dubreuilville, Ontario P0S 1B0 Thanks Guy!!!! I means alot to us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
srxz Posted March 22, 2009 Share Posted March 22, 2009 Thanks for the awesome trails! We came through wawa yesterday...had an excellent ride...you guys are doing a great job. We're in Chapleu heading back to Elliot Lake to complete our loop. Trails are amazing when there is snow...just tough getting in and out of town...well worth the trip...850 km so far this weekend. Is there any one else sledding this weekend? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred Quimby Posted March 22, 2009 Share Posted March 22, 2009 Since the government has it's hands on everything nowadays...permit is built into valadation sticker. Gotta have a valid license sticker when on trails, gotta have insurance proof to get validation sticker. That means you have insurance (can't believe some still don't) That means you buy a valtag That means you pay for your permit at the same time No sticker....triple the cost in a fine and return $$$ to clubs. That should make those who do not buy a permit think twice. How does the club get the money from the permit sale....tracked at time of purchase of valtag. May not be the perfect resolve but it will reduce the freeloaders. Or they face a whopper of a fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kyzer Posted March 22, 2009 Share Posted March 22, 2009 That would work great if the price of the Valtag stays low maybe $50 or so....Maybe there wouldn't be so many freeloaders, there will always be a few..But with the Validation sticker allowing access to the groomed trails it would mean more people enjoying the trails..Spending money at the gas pumps, hotels, restraunts, buying parts or upgrading to a newer sled...And I am sure it will attract more people helping out the clubs ....Sure I know what some of you are saying , great the trails will be too busy and rough all the time....The rate things are going now the trails are not going to exist in the next 5- 10 years ...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Domino Posted March 22, 2009 Share Posted March 22, 2009 That would work great if the price of the Valtag stays low maybe $50 or so....Maybe there wouldn't be so many freeloaders, there will always be a few..But with the Validation sticker allowing access to the groomed trails it would mean more people enjoying the trails..Spending money at the gas pumps, hotels, restraunts, buying parts or upgrading to a newer sled...And I am sure it will attract more people helping out the clubs ....Sure I know what some of you are saying , great the trails will be too busy and rough all the time....The rate things are going now the trails are not going to exist in the next 5- 10 years ...... Under $50?? You may as well close the trails now and sell your sled to a Quebecois. Right now you pay $180 for a permit and anothe $21 (about, can't remember) for your validation tag. So a reasonable amount to be able to charge for all sleds would be $150. I think the math would be a little closer at that price. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kyzer Posted March 23, 2009 Share Posted March 23, 2009 If you consider the thousands of sleds in Ontario that are registered but don't buy permits, it adds up...I don't pay anything for a vad sticker, and if i had to pay $150 it would be no big deal to me ....BUT again you have to think of the people that have the old beaters out there or the familys that don't have alot of money...Charging that amount would have the same affect as we are feeling now ....I would like to know how many sleds are registered in Ontario then you would have a better idea if $50, $75, $150 would work ????...I know if they tried to make everyone in Ontario $150 for a Val. sticker, alot of people wouldn't be registering there sleds.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred Quimby Posted March 23, 2009 Share Posted March 23, 2009 That would work great if the price of the Valtag stays low maybe $50 or so....Maybe there wouldn't be so many freeloaders, there will always be a few..But with the Validation sticker allowing access to the groomed trails it would mean more people enjoying the trails..Spending money at the gas pumps, hotels, restraunts, buying parts or upgrading to a newer sled...And I am sure it will attract more people helping out the clubs ....Sure I know what some of you are saying , great the trails will be too busy and rough all the time....The rate things are going now the trails are not going to exist in the next 5- 10 years ...... Under $50?? You may as well close the trails now and sell your sled to a Quebecois. Right now you pay $180 for a permit and anothe $21 (about, can't remember) for your validation tag. So a reasonable amount to be able to charge for all sleds would be $150. I think the math would be a little closer at that price. That was sort of the number that I had running through my head. I look at all the "locals" where I ride and cottage....sure many just troll down the trail and out to their ice huts...but did I say troll down the trail? Regardless of how long they were on the trails, they still use them and should pay. end of story. Looking at a lot of these "locals", they seem to be one of the biggest abuser groups. That and the guy who only rides one or two weekends a winter. Saw a lot of those out there too. Forcing a permit through the valtag....would at least get the dough rolling in or a steep fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teener Posted March 23, 2009 Share Posted March 23, 2009 That would work great if the price of the Valtag stays low maybe $50 or so....Maybe there wouldn't be so many freeloaders, there will always be a few..But with the Validation sticker allowing access to the groomed trails it would mean more people enjoying the trails..Spending money at the gas pumps, hotels, restraunts, buying parts or upgrading to a newer sled...And I am sure it will attract more people helping out the clubs ....Sure I know what some of you are saying , great the trails will be too busy and rough all the time....The rate things are going now the trails are not going to exist in the next 5- 10 years ...... Under $50?? You may as well close the trails now and sell your sled to a Quebecois. Right now you pay $180 for a permit and anothe $21 (about, can't remember) for your validation tag. So a reasonable amount to be able to charge for all sleds would be $150. I think the math would be a little closer at that price. That was sort of the number that I had running through my head. I look at all the "locals" where I ride and cottage....sure many just troll down the trail and out to their ice huts...but did I say troll down the trail? Regardless of how long they were on the trails, they still use them and should pay. end of story. Looking at a lot of these "locals", they seem to be one of the biggest abuser groups. That and the guy who only rides one or two weekends a winter. Saw a lot of those out there too. Forcing a permit through the valtag....would at least get the dough rolling in or a steep fine. In theory, I agree with bundling the permit with the valtag. The problem is that when the government gets involved in administering anything, price goes up while service goes down. I can see it already - the revenues generated would be 10x higher but the clubs would actually receive less money than they used to. It is what it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kyzer Posted March 23, 2009 Share Posted March 23, 2009 Good point Teener.......That's the way it usually works ........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Groomer Guy Posted March 23, 2009 Share Posted March 23, 2009 700Renagade was in the area for a Ride in Dubreuilville and Stoped by my store and Gave the Club a Donation!!!!! thanks man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canadianlad Posted March 24, 2009 Share Posted March 24, 2009 The Matrix is based on a number of things not just grooming hours: It is a 4 year averaging formula that gives or takes away points and the number of points you end up with determines your permit cost. Some of the items are -- how many weeks of grooming -- hours of grooming -- Km of trail -- # of permits sold in area The area in question pays the least amount possible from what I see. We had one bad winter for snow a couple years agao and are paying the price in our area. This year we had a good year in permit sales and will once again get kicked in the a...... next season for another 4 years. Is it fair - could it be better. Possibly but it is the best we have right now and clubs have to learn how to live within it. Easy no - always what we would like - no, but all we have right now. To go along with this there is an amount granted to each district for the shortfall of funding. This is given to the District to give out as they see the need to cover the shortfall in funding. From what I see also this area gets one of the highest amounts each year. (not saying who the district gives the money too - which club). If the area is running out of money perhaps there are problems with the distribution of the funds from the disttrict - but this is only speculation on my part and I don't know. As for permit sales - this is a growing problem and with the economy in a doldrum it may get worse next year in many areas. Many people see snowmobiling as a place to spend disposable income and if you have no job there is no disposable income. Another thing that will hit the north more than the south is the vintage permit as many people drive older machimnes. This will mean even less funds available. Another is with the last few winters the south has been getting more early snow and many people in the south that used to buy and ride the north are now buying in the south. Lastly less American buyers due to the same economic reasons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildbill Posted March 24, 2009 Share Posted March 24, 2009 The matrix attempts to achieve a province wide average per km of trail per week of season. The biggest issue as I see it is that there is not enough money to get the job done period. The system needs more money or lower expenses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canadianlad Posted March 25, 2009 Share Posted March 25, 2009 What the system really needs is for everyone to understand the needs of the other areas and realize we are not the only ones with needs. Far too often we see areas believing they are the only ones that are important and should get all the funding. Too often it is the north against the south or the ones with connectiions against those without and when this happens it hurts us all. Also I still believe there is too much money being spent on administration in Barrie and not enough on trails (again my opinion) and it seems like we will see even more of it this year. Some clubs spend every cent they can raise beg or borrow on the trails while other believe that fundraising is for the enjoyment of the club and should not go into trails. Some have lavish clubhouses while others can even afford out houses on the trails. If this continues you will see more and more clubs drop out and eventually the system will fold. Those great snowmobiling areas in times of low snow elsewhere will disappear. When this happens more people will drop out as they will believe it is not worth the expense and this will eventually even cause the collapse of the "Have" clubs and they will disappear also or become isolated litlle pockets with a few local trails. Like I said the matrix is all we have but I beleive it is in need of a bit of retooling and it needs to be done with progressive thinking and not with regional thinking involved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cudney Racing Posted March 25, 2009 Share Posted March 25, 2009 Well I just spent 4 days in northern Quebec riding absolutley incredible trails, hundreds of miles of them and they were all in great shape, the trails there, for the most part, are a lot wider than here and most of them aren't one pass groom trails but some take a leats 2 passes to groom, the signage is awesome and every curve is marked and speed asigned and they are generally accurate in the curve description, from what I have seen there in the last few years Ontario could use some lessons, not only in funding but where to get the funding. My yearly trail pass there was $250.00 and includes liability insurance. One more thing I should add is that we met in the eateries, motels etc. mostly guys from Ontario. - Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trailblazer Posted March 25, 2009 Share Posted March 25, 2009 Very good and interesting info there Bill. Thanks for that. Jeff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildbill Posted March 25, 2009 Share Posted March 25, 2009 What the system really needs is for everyone to understand the needs of the other areas and realize we are not the only ones with needs. Far too often we see areas believing they are the only ones that are important and should get all the funding. Too often it is the north against the south or the ones with connectiions against those without and when this happens it hurts us all. Also I still believe there is too much money being spent on administration in Barrie and not enough on trails (again my opinion) and it seems like we will see even more of it this year. Some clubs spend every cent they can raise beg or borrow on the trails while other believe that fundraising is for the enjoyment of the club and should not go into trails. Some have lavish clubhouses while others can even afford out houses on the trails. If this continues you will see more and more clubs drop out and eventually the system will fold. Those great snowmobiling areas in times of low snow elsewhere will disappear. When this happens more people will drop out as they will believe it is not worth the expense and this will eventually even cause the collapse of the "Have" clubs and they will disappear also or become isolated litlle pockets with a few local trails.Like I said the matrix is all we have but I beleive it is in need of a bit of retooling and it needs to be done with progressive thinking and not with regional thinking involved. Not only is Barrie too large and too expensive but they justify thier existence by creating a pile of paper and beaurocracy upon the clubs and the districts therefore creating a further burdon on the clubs. As well millions could be saved in insurance premiums if the province would pass a protect our volenteers legislation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canadianlad Posted March 25, 2009 Share Posted March 25, 2009 Well I just spent 4 days in northern Quebec riding absolutley incredible trails, hundreds of miles of them and they were all in great shape, the trails there, for the most part, are a lot wider than here and most of them aren't one pass groom trails but some take a leats 2 passes to groom, the signage is awesome and every curve is marked and speed asigned and they are generally accurate in the curve description, from what I have seen there in the last few years Ontario could use some lessons, not only in funding but where to get the funding. My yearly trail pass there was $250.00 and includes liability insurance. One more thing I should add is that we met in the eateries, motels etc. mostly guys from Ontario. - Bill The trails in Quebec are run by the government. They put in the money and do most of the work. Very little volunteer work is done. The tax payer pays the bill and guess who that is as with the equalization payments from the feds that is you and I. Try and get the Ontario governmemnt to take over and run our trails and tell them they will need to get funding from the voters taxes and you will see how quick they will turn tail and run. I have also ridden the trails in Quebec and for the most part Ontario's are as good and in some cases better. Comparing the two systems is like comparing apples and oranges and not a fair thing to do. One is user pay the other is government subsidized. ( I know we get a few bucks now and then but it is just a drop in the bucket compared to the cost and some areas did not get anything from the last government handout as there were so many strings attached it was a job just to apply) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cudney Racing Posted March 26, 2009 Share Posted March 26, 2009 Well I just spent 4 days in northern Quebec riding absolutley incredible trails, hundreds of miles of them and they were all in great shape, the trails there, for the most part, are a lot wider than here and most of them aren't one pass groom trails but some take a leats 2 passes to groom, the signage is awesome and every curve is marked and speed asigned and they are generally accurate in the curve description, from what I have seen there in the last few years Ontario could use some lessons, not only in funding but where to get the funding. My yearly trail pass there was $250.00 and includes liability insurance. One more thing I should add is that we met in the eateries, motels etc. mostly guys from Ontario. - Bill The trails in Quebec are run by the government. They put in the money and do most of the work. Very little volunteer work is done. The tax payer pays the bill and guess who that is as with the equalization payments from the feds that is you and I. Try and get the Ontario governmemnt to take over and run our trails and tell them they will need to get funding from the voters taxes and you will see how quick they will turn tail and run. I have also ridden the trails in Quebec and for the most part Ontario's are as good and in some cases better. Comparing the two systems is like comparing apples and oranges and not a fair thing to do. One is user pay the other is government subsidized. ( I know we get a few bucks now and then but it is just a drop in the bucket compared to the cost and some areas did not get anything from the last government handout as there were so many strings attached it was a job just to apply) If you noticed in my post I said "is Ontario could use some lessons" which is the province and no way was I suggesting anything about the OSFC, they should receive more funding for sure as long as the funding makes it where it is needed. As for a comparison of trails, Ontario Trails are good and I have rode a lot of them as well, but if you have never been to Gaspe, you really haven't seen great trails, no where else that I have ever rode, and that is most of Canada and a lot of the US can compare with it there. - Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Reg Posted March 27, 2009 Author Share Posted March 27, 2009 we received 4 more donation $50.00 $50.00 $25.00 $100.00 THANK YOU it's -3 right now 1-3 cm of snow Sunday 5-10 cm of snow Tuesday Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Domino Posted March 27, 2009 Share Posted March 27, 2009 we received 4 more donation$50.00 $50.00 $25.00 $100.00 THANK YOU it's -3 right now 1-3 cm of snow Sunday 5-10 cm of snow Tuesday That's great Reg! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Reg Posted March 27, 2009 Author Share Posted March 27, 2009 ASPA web site have a Thank you note Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viper700 Posted March 28, 2009 Share Posted March 28, 2009 Bill is right. I know about 8 people that have quit in the last three years. All are middle class people that don't have the time and resources to devote to sledding anyway. I'm going to sled for another year or two and then decide. Maybe buy another boat instead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canadianlad Posted March 28, 2009 Share Posted March 28, 2009 For one thing mentioned above - do not confuse the number of registered sleds with the number of sleds on the trail or even in use. You can have a registered sled that you scraped 10 years ago and it is still registered unless you contacted the registery office to remove it (and no-one does). So the number of registered sleds is a red herring when you discuss this number and useless. Unless you are a politician and want to use it to your advantage. As for sleeding or not sledding - I have to kick myself every now and then to wander why I am still in it. I spend 100's of hours on the trails every year getting them ready - maintaining them and then closing them only to have to start over every year and build reroutes. We used to have a couple hundred club members and are now down to 3-4 active members for the same amount of trail with more work than before as we seem to lose access every year to some place due to urban sprawl or new highways or land use loss due to ATV's or sledder abuse. Costs of everything have rose drastically costing me an arm and leg just to do trail work (no compensation) and then I get riders complaining or asking why I haven't done this or that or that the trail should go here or there or why did you close that trail and when will you find a reroute etc etc etc. and I still have to buy my permit and insurance etc. On top of that the government is stepping in and telling us we need to have the same health and safety policies and procedures (not that I am aagainst working safely) as companies or I will be fined or go to jail and then the OFSC tells me you have to do hundreds of hours of paper work each year or we will not only not sell you permits but withdraw your club membership and all funding. After 40 years as a snowmobiler who got into it for enjoyment I am beginning to wander now that I am retired if maybe next year is the year I become a snowbird rather than a snowmobiler. But I guess like most of us that have it in your blood I will be back as early as next week fixing another bridge for next year and then the week after looking at another reroute we need to do and in May we start to cut it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Posted March 28, 2009 Share Posted March 28, 2009 Great post CanadianLad. Thanks for your efforts to date. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kyzer Posted March 29, 2009 Share Posted March 29, 2009 There are still thousands of sleds that are in use in Ontario that don't buy a trail permit ..Just look at the number of people that renew there val tag every year and that would give you a good idea of how many are out there ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.