2026 Ontario season

[Strong Farmer]

5 hours ago, T bird said:

Totally understand your theory. … but…. I for one, love having the availability being able to trailer to Mitchell to access the greatness of D5/D9…. Take that all away from me….i become a trespasser… our Glencoe club is on the verge of this exact same issue! Already lost our groomer and 70% of our trail system… down to a staring point trail that doesn’t loop anywhere 

That's worst trail to ride in afternoon too. I trailer too for a similar reason. I did all my km's in d5 and d9 last winter. Farthest north I went was tivetdale, just south of mount forest.   I have a few loop options left but not as many as before.  Farther south I went was just above 401  ayr. Never went below 401. All had good conditions last winter. Cut out local trails loose volunteers and permit holders. People will only trailer so far. 6 weeks is a pretty good season. Some areas of d9 like milverton and Listowel ran a few weeks longer then d5. I trailers up there for my last ride on March 9.  
our last ride below near Listowel 

[95rxl650]

For the most part I headed south from Owen Sound last winter. Head down to Shelburne and across to Huron and back up. As much snow as we got, it seemed there were always sections of trail that were closed. Doesnt matter how much snow we get if it all comes at once and followed by rain. Then there was streamers all winter. Riding in great snow and a few minutes later, snirt. 

Alot of times the small connectors is all that keeps moving. If I have to ride the same trails home I dont enjoy the ride as much and running a rail bed is like watching paint dry. 

I see alot of people ride up to Owen Sound on the rail bed then turn around and head back south on the same railbed and call it a good ride. Not for me. If I loose the ability to do loops and enjoy the bush trails then I'll be done. Even with the snow we had this year it was hard to put together a day without back tracking the same trails. Still had a ton of fun, but it gets old fast for me. 

[Strong Farmer]

Anyone know number of passes sold last winter?  I wonder how much extra it would take to wipe out current  deficit. 

[Spiderman]

16 minutes ago, Strong Farmer said:

Anyone know number of passes sold last winter?  I wonder how much extra it would take to wipe out current  deficit. 

 

Well, here is some simple math:

 

Total est. cost to run/operate the system for 2025/2026 = X

Total # of permits required to be sold to run system = Y ( they will know how many full price, early bird etc. needed )

Total: = $

 

That will give them current.

Now - for the deficit......

 

Add $5,000,000.00 ( deficit )

/ that by $294.00 ( full permit price ) = 17,006 full price permits - over and above the permits sold to service the current season.

 

Now, from there, you'd have to factor the following:

How much of $294.00 does the OFSC get? ( MTO take a cut )

Now you have the net number

 

with that - you'll have a quick glimpse into whether or not its something that can reasonably be done in a season, over 3 seasons? assuming there are no future losses adding/compounding the deficit.

 

The OFSC has one primary source of income - permits.

 

I have no idea how non-profit etc. all work from legal sides of what they're allowed to do vs not allowed to do.

 

but one small solution ( if it were even legal/allowed ).

 

Maybe they could try to act like an insurer does?

Permit fee of $294.00 - 50% of that hits the snow - 50% gets invested and they build revenue via investment income?

Put the investment income back into the system as needed.

 

Just spit balling here.

[Strong Farmer]

20 minutes ago, Spiderman said:

 

Well, here is some simple math:

 

Total est. cost to run/operate the system for 2025/2026 = X

Total # of permits required to be sold to run system = Y ( they will know how many full price, early bird etc. needed )

Total: = $

 

That will give them current.

Now - for the deficit......

 

Add $5,000,000.00 ( deficit )

/ that by $294.00 ( full permit price ) = 17,006 full price permits - over and above the permits sold to service the current season.

 

Now, from there, you'd have to factor the following:

How much of $294.00 does the OFSC get? ( MTO take a cut )

Now you have the net number

 

with that - you'll have a quick glimpse into whether or not its something that can reasonably be done in a season, over 3 seasons? assuming there are no future losses adding/compounding the deficit.

 

The OFSC has one primary source of income - permits.

 

I have no idea how non-profit etc. all work from legal sides of what they're allowed to do vs not allowed to do.

 

but one small solution ( if it were even legal/allowed ).

 

Maybe they could try to act like an insurer does?

Permit fee of $294.00 - 50% of that hits the snow - 50% gets invested and they build revenue via investment income?

Put the investment income back into the system as needed.

 

Just spit balling here.

Kind of shocking reserves got eaten up after all those poor condition winters. Almost like they weren't prepared for an average winter and bingo we have a huge deficit. Should be reserves that money could be invested into something else to drive income, like you say. That would be a bright idea to sustain it going forward. 
 

[Spiderman]

9 minutes ago, Strong Farmer said:

Kind of shocking reserves got eaten up after all those poor condition winters. Almost like they weren't prepared for an average winter and bingo we have a huge deficit. Should be reserves that money could be invested into something else to drive income, like you say. That would be a bright idea to sustain it going forward. 
 

Are you assuming there were reserves from those poor winters? or is that fact?

 

Let's be fair, the landscape on expenses has really changed in the last few years - every year - trying to forecast some of that is a very very difficult job, difficult for those people who spend their careers doing it - let alone some that are volunteers and doing their best. 

 

Should you plan for a rainy day? of course - but nobody can really say how rainy it's going to be.

You also need to have those funds to set aside to begin with. 

 

How much reserve is an org like that allowed to have - if any?

Are they required to spend to net 0 under whatever governance they are under.

 

These are things we aren't privy to - things people that are in certain chairs are and you have to believe they're doing everything they can to make the system work.

 

Some ideas work - some don't - that's life.

 

When something isn't working- you have to be able pivot quickly

Some can - some can't - and there are lots of reasons why.

 

Bottom line for us though - the permit needs to go up.

It just has to.

You won't like, but too bad.

If the increase is going to push you out - so be it.

If we don't increase it - we won't need to worry because it'll shut down anyway.

 

 

 

[volunteer2]

20 hours ago, Strong Farmer said:

Haliburton forest tried to make snow too. What happened is it  too much work. They tried to pump it out of some lakes and move it around with groomer. Found it more cost effective to just steal some snow from bush when needed now. 
I always thought about what would hspppen if we made up some kind of hot plate that would heat snow up after groomer worked it and turn it to ice so it would stay. 
Also thought about saw dust. It's a great insulator. Thin layer was put down early in season it would hold snow longer then a section without it. Most likely  preventing base from melting entirely. Maybe there is a way to brush and chip material back onto trail early in season to insulate base from melting. 

Been there done that    In your area man     We had the vibrating pan on the drag    trail became like concrete when it froze 

[grover_yyz]

Our club is slated to loose a trail we didn't open last year or in 2023. We got ghosted by a landowner (home developer) and didn't have time to reroute so it stayed closed. Now it will be gone if a miracle doesn't happen before the snow flies.  We worked very hard to get all landowner agreements in place and we have a reroute in place; but that's not good enough unless another club in district lets go of a trail. If we loose Pefferlaw trail the Uxbridge trail will be next as it may not have a trail to connect to any other trail. Our club will be just a feeder trail to the north and the loop trails we were trying to connect will be abandoned. 

 

If OFSC was serious about saving money they would cancel the Deerhurst AGM and hold it for an afternoon at the Slederama in Toronto in one of the halls. It was nice to attend and eat "fancy food" and stay in a hotel room for free however; we can't afford that now. If they held it at the Sledshow they could have info sessions to educate the masses and maybe pickup more volunteers.

 

Jerry

 

[Spiderman]

28 minutes ago, grover_yyz said:

Our club is slated to loose a trail we didn't open last year or in 2023. We got ghosted by a landowner (home developer) and didn't have time to reroute so it stayed closed. Now it will be gone if a miracle doesn't happen before the snow flies.  We worked very hard to get all landowner agreements in place and we have a reroute in place; but that's not good enough unless another club in district lets go of a trail. If we loose Pefferlaw trail the Uxbridge trail will be next as it may not have a trail to connect to any other trail. Our club will be just a feeder trail to the north and the loop trails we were trying to connect will be abandoned. 

 

If OFSC was serious about saving money they would cancel the Deerhurst AGM and hold it for an afternoon at the Slederama in Toronto in one of the halls. It was nice to attend and eat "fancy food" and stay in a hotel room for free however; we can't afford that now. If they held it at the Sledshow they could have info sessions to educate the masses and maybe pickup more volunteers.

 

Jerry

 

 

Nothing's free Grover.

Unless some gracious individual and/or company personally donated the funds to pay for all of that of course.

[Strong Farmer]

3 hours ago, volunteer2 said:

Been there done that    In your area man     We had the vibrating pan on the drag    trail became like concrete when it froze 

It was better away from Baden no doubt. I didn't hit too many flat trails last winter. Most of them were drifted in, bumped out or abit of both. Best ride was last day when sun was out. Perfect ride. Thanks for efforts. 

[volunteer2]

20 hours ago, Blackstar said:

 

Always the optimist eh Spidy?   😀

 

 

We are on a path to a slow death no doubt.

 

 

My 2 cents. Don't cut trails. The permit is too cheap. Raise the damn price 25% and let's see what happens.

 

 

And why is this discussion happening all hush, hush on forums and Facebook? Why doesn't the OFSC speak to its permit buyers with the problems it's facing and offer possible solutions? They got all our email addresses. 

as Nunz commented there was a town hall meeting   Our Prez was online  eventhough he was on vacation in PEI   This Tues our District had a directors meeting    now the clubs should be getting the info from their district directors    Not the first time there are important issues being discussed in the off season      that is if there is an off season    

[Spiderman]

22 minutes ago, volunteer2 said:

as Nunz commented there was a town hall meeting   Our Prez was online  eventhough he was on vacation in PEI   This Tues our District had a directors meeting    now the clubs should be getting the info from their district directors    Not the first time there are important issues being discussed in the off season      that is if there is an off season    

Info, or direction/mandate?

 

No doubt there are important issues 12 months a year. That should surprise no one.

 

 

[PISTON LAKE CRUISER]

8 hours ago, Spiderman said:

( MTO take a cut )

Are you certain about that statement?

[Spiderman]

24 minutes ago, PISTON LAKE CRUISER said:

Are you certain about that statement?

No, that’s why it’s in brackets as in I am am not sure if they do or don’t

[yamadan700]

Possible solution.

 

Make the validation(Val) tag your trail permit.

 

How many $15 Val tags are issued every year in the province? 

How much money does the OFSC need to keep afloat and maintain their trails? 

 

Increase the $15 Val tag to whatever is needed to keep the trails alive. Not sure what that number is but I would assume it would be much less than a current early bird trail permit. Maybe $100?? $150?? Be the same as when we used to have to buy Val tags for our vehicles to help pay for road maintenance. I'm sure there will be some people not happy with it (people that don't use the OFSC trails) but it could work if the OFSC and MTO work together. The unhappy people can just run their sleds on private land.

I don't know if you need a Val tag to run on Crown land but you may need one to get to it.

 

It would somewhat eliminate the people that ride the trails without buying a trail permit and make trail permit enforcement very easy.  Most would need to comply if they want to snowmobile anywhere.

 

 

[volunteer2]

4 hours ago, Strong Farmer said:

It was better away from Baden no doubt. I didn't hit too many flat trails last winter. Most of them were drifted in, bumped out or abit of both. Best ride was last day when sun was out. Perfect ride. Thanks for efforts. 

This wasn't last winter. We had that unit probably 10 years or more ago. GTSA was using it 

[Strong Farmer]

10 hours ago, volunteer2 said:

This wasn't last winter. We had that unit probably 10 years or more ago. GTSA was using it 

Oh nice I forgot all about that association. 

[Strong Farmer]

12 hours ago, yamadan700 said:

Possible solution.

 

Make the validation(Val) tag your trail permit.

 

How many $15 Val tags are issued every year in the province? 

How much money does the OFSC need to keep afloat and maintain their trails? 

 

Increase the $15 Val tag to whatever is needed to keep the trails alive. Not sure what that number is but I would assume it would be much less than a current early bird trail permit. Maybe $100?? $150?? Be the same as when we used to have to buy Val tags for our vehicles to help pay for road maintenance. I'm sure there will be some people not happy with it (people that don't use the OFSC trails) but it could work if the OFSC and MTO work together. The unhappy people can just run their sleds on private land.

I don't know if you need a Val tag to run on Crown land but you may need one to get to it.

 

It would somewhat eliminate the people that ride the trails without buying a trail permit and make trail permit enforcement very easy.  Most would need to comply if they want to snowmobile anywhere.

 

 

That would be easiest solution but there are some that just ride roads, lakes, etc and they feel they shouldn't have to pay for trails.  I like to see some cameras put up live ones that send pics to police department. No visible permit on sled mail them ticket.    That solve problem fairly quickly. 

[Guy JR]

12 hours ago, yamadan700 said:

Possible solution.

 

Make the validation(Val) tag your trail permit.

 

How many $15 Val tags are issued every year in the province? 

How much money does the OFSC need to keep afloat and maintain their trails? 

 

Increase the $15 Val tag to whatever is needed to keep the trails alive. Not sure what that number is but I would assume it would be much less than a current early bird trail permit. Maybe $100?? $150?? Be the same as when we used to have to buy Val tags for our vehicles to help pay for road maintenance. I'm sure there will be some people not happy with it (people that don't use the OFSC trails) but it could work if the OFSC and MTO work together. The unhappy people can just run their sleds on private land.

I don't know if you need a Val tag to run on Crown land but you may need one to get to it.

 

It would somewhat eliminate the people that ride the trails without buying a trail permit and make trail permit enforcement very easy.  Most would need to comply if they want to snowmobile anywhere.

 

 

Its going to be a hard sell to have people who have no interest in trail riding, support a sport and trail system that that you need to have considerable money to participate in.  I don't trail ride but use my 18 year old sled for accessing my hunt camp and bomb around my neighborhood at home.  

[stoney]

To bad for them…🤪

 

figure out short fall, how many validation  tags are sold, increase the cost of those that goes to the “infrastructure” and keep the permit fee at a fair rate. 

win - win 👍

[Mach Z]

48 minutes ago, stoney said:

To bad for them…🤪

 

figure out short fall, how many validation  tags are sold, increase the cost of those that goes to the “infrastructure” and keep the permit fee at a fair rate. 

win - win 👍

 

13 hours ago, yamadan700 said:

Possible solution.

 

Make the validation(Val) tag your trail permit.

 

How many $15 Val tags are issued every year in the province? 

How much money does the OFSC need to keep afloat and maintain their trails? 

 

Increase the $15 Val tag to whatever is needed to keep the trails alive. Not sure what that number is but I would assume it would be much less than a current early bird trail permit. Maybe $100?? $150?? Be the same as when we used to have to buy Val tags for our vehicles to help pay for road maintenance. I'm sure there will be some people not happy with it (people that don't use the OFSC trails) but it could work if the OFSC and MTO work together. The unhappy people can just run their sleds on private land.

I don't know if you need a Val tag to run on Crown land but you may need one to get to it.

 

It would somewhat eliminate the people that ride the trails without buying a trail permit and make trail permit enforcement very easy.  Most would need to comply if they want to snowmobile anywhere.

 

 

yup and yup. 

 

Technically the whole system is a provincially regulated system so this should have been done years ago

[stoney]

I don’t pretend to know how QC does it, but it seems to operate more like that, a provincial system and it’s understood the significant impacts as a result of a healthy system that has significant benefits, mostly implemented/managed  by volunteers. 

[Spiderman]

I believe you need a val tag and insurance the minute you leave private property do you not?

 

Increasing the val tag would be a great idea.

 

I don't really care if it bothers those that don't use trails.

Do you have any idea how much taxes I pay toward services I don't use?

 

I would love to go down that road - but we don't live in a society that works like that in Canada.

You pay, pay, and pay, for a lot of things you'll never see/use.

 

 

[Spiderman]

1 minute ago, stoney said:

I don’t pretend to know how QC does it, but it seems to operate more like that, a provincial system and it’s understood the significant impacts as a result of a healthy system that has significant benefits, mostly implemented/managed  by volunteers. 

 

What makes QC vastly different is how their insurance, liability, and legal side of is set up.

We can't do that

[Sksman]

11 minutes ago, mach Z said:

 

yup and yup. 

 

Technically the whole system is a provincially regulated system so this should have been done years ago

What will be the impact on the trail system if all the farmers or land owners are forced to pay $100 or $150 for a snowmobile Val tag?

 

How many will close trails across their property?

 

How many Val tags are sold yearly in Ontario?  
 

Would a small bump from $15 to say $20 or 25 combined with say a $50 increase in trail permit be enough to provide the required trail permit revenue?  

 

I do not believe forcing people to pay big (4 or 5 or more) times the current cost for something they will not use is the answer!