Strong Farmer Posted August 12 Posted August 12 There are people spewing ofsc has a 5 million deficit and is proposing to cut trails in every district this coming winter. Some say we are going from 31,000 down to 24,000 km's of trail. Others are saying it's closer to 22,000 km. Anybody know any real facts or are they just doing some current proposals? They also said passes are going up 7 percent. That's a big deficit to over come after a great winter 😳 Quote
Spiderman Posted August 12 Posted August 12 30 minutes ago, Strong Farmer said: There are people spewing ofsc has a 5 million deficit and is proposing to cut trails in every district this coming winter. Some say we are going from 31,000 down to 24,000 km's of trail. Others are saying it's closer to 22,000 km. Anybody know any real facts or are they just doing some current proposals? They also said passes are going up 7 percent. That's a big deficit to over come after a great winter 😳 Who knows what the numbers are, but nothing would surprise me. It's not been sustainable fora very long time. Costs to run the system, everywhere you turn, have skyrocketed over the years and membership has not been able to keep up with it. Most of those costs, I will add were un-avoidable. We all wish it was like it was, but it isn't, and it won't ever go back to that either. Enjoy what's left, when you can, and we'll see where it goes. Unless Government want to get on board ( which let's face it - considering we're facing mandatory retarded ev mandates ) all signs point to f-off, it's going to continue to disappear. Really sucks. Welcome to Ontario Canada, where everything dies. 1 Quote
Strong Farmer Posted August 12 Author Posted August 12 21 minutes ago, Spiderman said: Who knows what the numbers are, but nothing would surprise me. It's not been sustainable fora very long time. Costs to run the system, everywhere you turn, have skyrocketed over the years and membership has not been able to keep up with it. Most of those costs, I will add were un-avoidable. We all wish it was like it was, but it isn't, and it won't ever go back to that either. Enjoy what's left, when you can, and we'll see where it goes. Unless Government want to get on board ( which let's face it - considering we're facing mandatory retarded ev mandates ) all signs point to f-off, it's going to continue to disappear. Really sucks. Welcome to Ontario Canada, where everything dies. Not sure what costs per km are today to run system. Glory days are long gone your right. Ev stuff is nuts. They don't even have a plan in place to delivery hydro needed if we did switch over to ev's. When I went to port Stanley on weekend people were idling in front of ev plugs, waiting for thier turn 😂. Maybe 3 plugs for 200 parking spaces. Infrusture we are going to need is nuts. Sir Adam beck wanted to run all trains on electric too, but that wasn't sustainable back then either. Why are they even trying it now 🤪 Quote
Dave K Posted August 12 Posted August 12 Our club had a meeting last night, I was unable to go, But OFSC is requesting 20 % cut, or in D9 460 km of trail 2 Quote
Spiderman Posted August 12 Posted August 12 11 minutes ago, Strong Farmer said: Not sure what costs per km are today to run system. Glory days are long gone your right. Ev stuff is nuts. They don't even have a plan in place to delivery hydro needed if we did switch over to ev's. When I went to port Stanley on weekend people were idling in front of ev plugs, waiting for thier turn 😂. Maybe 3 plugs for 200 parking spaces. Infrusture we are going to need is nuts. Sir Adam beck wanted to run all trains on electric too, but that wasn't sustainable back then either. Why are they even trying it now 🤪 Everybody except the retarded current brand of Liberal leadership knows its nuts - but here we are. People voted for these clowns and this was part of their platform. don't forget that. anyway, back to the topic. The unfortunate part of system retraction is once its gone - it's gone - you ain't getting it back. All you can do is buy a permit and promote the activity whenever and whereever you can. With no riders - there is no system Quote
Spiderman Posted August 12 Posted August 12 8 minutes ago, Dave K said: Our club had a meeting last night, I was unable to go, But OFSC is requesting 20 % cut, or in D9 460 km of trail I know this is going to sound like a stupid question Is it 20% in operating expenses - and lose 460 km trail to obtain? Or, just find 20% savings? ( not sure where you'd do that w/o cutting ). Just trying to understand the ask/language of the ask. Quote
stoney Posted August 12 Posted August 12 So if there is a loss after a good year - that tells you the permit is grossly under priced, what has been said for a long time. Decreasing the trails is overdue as well - the sport has shrunk and continues too, be it ridership or volunteers. As for permit increase, do not recall the specifics, but the MTO must approve that, not sure what the timeline or deadline for that is though, but I think it might be too late for this coming year - might be wrong.... Sounds realistic to me vs. "spewing", IMO.....and Dave K did add some validity to it. 1 Quote
stoney Posted August 12 Posted August 12 2 minutes ago, Spiderman said: I know this is going to sound like a stupid question Is it 20% in operating expenses - and lose 460 km trail to obtain? Or, just find 20% savings? ( not sure where you'd do that w/o cutting ). Just trying to understand the ask/language of the ask. I think from a club standpoint the biggest expense that can be cut are trails, staff are not paid, groomer operators are, but less trails means less grooming hours, fuel, etc...., that comes to a club from the OFSC by means of the number of trails you groom - no grooming = no money, not sure how the cost of a club house comes into play, but that cannot be cut either really unless a clubs folds and the expense is 0. I am sure there is more to it, but I thought that was the gist of it. Quote
Spiderman Posted August 12 Posted August 12 13 minutes ago, stoney said: So if there is a loss after a good year - that tells you the permit is grossly under priced, what has been said for a long time. Decreasing the trails is overdue as well - the sport has shrunk and continues too, be it ridership or volunteers. As for permit increase, do not recall the specifics, but the MTO must approve that, not sure what the timeline or deadline for that is though, but I think it might be too late for this coming year - might be wrong.... Sounds realistic to me vs. "spewing", IMO.....and Dave K did add some validity to it. It's been under priced since day 1 - but to the credit of the OFSC - they don't dismiss that either, they know it, but they're also in a horrible position of trying to balance keeping it at a price point to keep people involved vs. pushing them out. As we have seen time and time again - here and everywhere, some riders are fickel and the price of a permit is a real sticking point for them. You can show them other examples of how much things cost and their values etc. till you are blue in the face, but their stubborness, or maybe ignorance, I'm not sure, won't let them get past it. It's weird though. I have to believe the constant up and down weather - stop - start - stop - start - re-work etc. isn't helping with grooming hours. some of these trails need a lot of work, passes etc. to get trail ready ( good enough to get a color on the map ). all that work - only to have to start over after 3-4 meltdowns has to eat up precious fuel resources too. At the end of the day, there is no easy solution, no single solution, and nothing really that can be done other than to face the music. It costs X to run the system. Our revenues comes from Y If Y is less than X - you have a problem and a decision to make Cut Increase both 2 Quote
stoney Posted August 12 Posted August 12 Yep, you cannot fault the OFSC for trying to make it work to keep the people on the fringe in, well some will of course, especially when frustration sets in - but at a point, tough decisions must be made and this might finally be the time for those. I never really got out last year - but were the trails busy with the "good" year, restaurants packed, etc....or people surprised by the lack of riders on the trails? Quote
Spiderman Posted August 12 Posted August 12 5 minutes ago, stoney said: Yep, you cannot fault the OFSC for trying to make it work to keep the people on the fringe in, well some will of course, especially when frustration sets in - but at a point, tough decisions must be made and this might finally be the time for those. I never really got out last year - but were the trails busy with the "good" year, restaurants packed, etc....or people surprised by the lack of riders on the trails? I got to ride 2 days last winter. That is what my schedule allowed. Each day I got out was awesome. Some time away and only limited riding is a friendly reminder ( for me anyway ), how spoiled and lucky we are. Zero question as to why I love sledding when I am able to get out. There is nothing like it Quote
signfan Posted August 12 Posted August 12 Cut the groomer replacement program first. Way too much money going to manufacturers for new iron. Do we really need a 400 hp 12’ wide unit worth $500k where a 125 hp tractor did the job before at 1/4 of the price. With all that’s been spent in the last 5 years the system can afford a year of not outlaying cash on equipment . Cutting trails is a very slippery slope. You don’t get them back once closed. Permit prices have to go up. The cost of everything doubled. Some corrections occurring now, but the permit prices should have increased during COVID and didn’t. That has to be corrected. Look at New Brunswick. They had substantial increases. OFSC should have a look at how that’s played out for them. Quebec passes are going up this year. 1 Quote
Nunz Posted August 12 Posted August 12 There was a town hall a few weeks ago and Ryan and Excom from the OFSC explained it all to who attended online. As much as it was informative there was no chance to ask questions during it. I’m sure more correct information will come out as the season gets closer. 3 Quote
Dave K Posted August 12 Posted August 12 2 hours ago, Spiderman said: I know this is going to sound like a stupid question Is it 20% in operating expenses - and lose 460 km trail to obtain? Or, just find 20% savings? ( not sure where you'd do that w/o cutting ). Just trying to understand the ask/language of the ask. Our District is saying 20% reduction in trails. Some of that is easier in D9 where you may have 2 trails running parrallel, about 5 km apart. I can think of a few examples like that. One trail goes through town, 1 around town, or one is a railbed, one a field and bush trail Not quite so easy when you are in Cochrane, and wanna run to the Hydro Dam 1 Quote
skidooboy Posted August 12 Posted August 12 Where did all the money go from the previous year, when we had no snow, and barely any trails opened? That would be my first question at a town hall. Ski 1 Quote
Strong Farmer Posted August 12 Author Posted August 12 2 hours ago, Dave K said: Our District is saying 20% reduction in trails. Some of that is easier in D9 where you may have 2 trails running parrallel, about 5 km apart. I can think of a few examples like that. One trail goes through town, 1 around town, or one is a railbed, one a field and bush trail Not quite so easy when you are in Cochrane, and wanna run to the Hydro Dam They could cut out Quebec trail though I suppose. Quote
grover_yyz Posted August 13 Posted August 13 7 hours ago, Strong Farmer said: There are people spewing ofsc has a 5 million deficit and is proposing to cut trails in every district this coming winter. Some say we are going from 31,000 down to 24,000 km's of trail. Others are saying it's closer to 22,000 km. Anybody know any real facts or are they just doing some current proposals? They also said passes are going up 7 percent. That's a big deficit to over come after a great winter 😳 We had a district zoom call last week and OFSC wants 6000km of trails reduced equally from each district. Also a request for 7% permit increase. I find this disappointing as we wanted to get a couple of trails back to connect with adjacent club and one of our local communities. When word gets out there will be unhappy riders who may just say no to a pass this year and take their chances. Grooming restructuring to have each groomer run 150km. Not clear if one way 150 km or round trip. District grooming will also be the new norm to be more efficient. Quote
stoney Posted August 13 Posted August 13 2 hours ago, skidooboy said: Where did all the money go from the previous year, when we had no snow, and barely any trails opened? That would be my first question at a town hall. Ski Usually the answer is insurance....gets paid regardless of trails open or not. But less gas would be spent on, so a saving, to what degree, no idea. Quote
PISTON LAKE CRUISER Posted August 13 Posted August 13 1 hour ago, grover_yyz said: Grooming restructuring to have each groomer run 150km. They better buy a bunch more new groomers if they are going to try to go to 150 km. from what I believe now averages around 100 km. Our groomers trails were open 6 weeks last season and our groomer was down 5 weeks of that time. The groomer they gave us to use from a southern club was not worth the cost of the trucking. 2 Quote
signfan Posted August 13 Posted August 13 New doesn’t equal reliable. Been lots of issues with new equipment that doesn’t work right. This whole dream of getting to that many kms per groomer doesn’t work if an area has any decent amount of traffic at all. The cost to keep everything “new” is absurd. The math is all reliant on having organization (can be tough for a team of volunteers) to keep the thing running 24/7 and the weather actually co-operating. It completely ignores the weather this province gets and the surge in traffic that occurs at specific times. This train of thought needs to be re-evaluated. You keep the old iron until it has a catastrophic failure. Run it for the years when there is no depreciation costs and if repairs get stupid oh well. Scrap it and carry on. Keep some new stuff coming in when it can be afforded. Just my opinion. 2 Quote
Strong Farmer Posted August 13 Author Posted August 13 8 hours ago, PISTON LAKE CRUISER said: They better buy a bunch more new groomers if they are going to try to go to 150 km. from what I believe now averages around 100 km. Our groomers trails were open 6 weeks last season and our groomer was down 5 weeks of that time. The groomer they gave us to use from a southern club was not worth the cost of the trucking. Ekkeee. That explains lack of grooming in that area last winter. Conestoga lake had some trouble too last winter. Seen posts it was parked on a certain trail broke down 😂 Quote
Spiderman Posted August 13 Posted August 13 12 hours ago, grover_yyz said: We had a district zoom call last week and OFSC wants 6000km of trails reduced equally from each district. Also a request for 7% permit increase. I find this disappointing as we wanted to get a couple of trails back to connect with adjacent club and one of our local communities. When word gets out there will be unhappy riders who may just say no to a pass this year and take their chances. Grooming restructuring to have each groomer run 150km. Not clear if one way 150 km or round trip. District grooming will also be the new norm to be more efficient. Can the OFSC tell the club to reduce THEIR trails though? Is every club bound by that? I would hope that clubs have their autonomy over their own trail systems? If our district had to go and close a whole bunch of trails - that would be hugely dissapointing. They aren't going to ever make more - we're losing some by attrition every year anyway. Sounds like they're slowing shutting it down. Soon all we will have is A,B,C,D trails Quote
Strong Farmer Posted August 13 Author Posted August 13 23 minutes ago, Spiderman said: Can the OFSC tell the club to reduce THEIR trails though? Is every club bound by that? I would hope that clubs have their autonomy over their own trail systems? If our district had to go and close a whole bunch of trails - that would be hugely dissapointing. They aren't going to ever make more - we're losing some by attrition every year anyway. Sounds like they're slowing shutting it down. Soon all we will have is A,B,C,D trails Once local fun loops go more volunteers will loose interest too. They don't use top trails on a regular basis. It's those fun side loops that are mint condition that are fun to ride for locals. We lost some of our loops here years ago, mostly because one club folded. Niegbouring clubs took over abit of trail but fun loop is gone for good. No getting that back now. No fun going from point a to point b, if c loop is missing and have to go home same way you arrived. That be death of sport. That trail takes so much traffic you just avoid area when it comes to this. I find it's easier to trailer to next area then screw up my back riding a heavily travelled trail because only way to go north and south in one area. All that traffic just kills base, and would require more grooming then keeping c loop open. If they shrink trails more grooming will be required to keep up with traffic anyways. I am not convinced they save much money that way. 2 Quote
Spiderman Posted August 13 Posted August 13 What would happen if the club were to say no? Anyway, clearly the slow decline to net zero is on it's way. Quote
Strong Farmer Posted August 13 Author Posted August 13 2 hours ago, Spiderman said: What would happen if the club were to say no? Anyway, clearly the slow decline to net zero is on it's way. That's a big cut no doubt. We were all warned about cheaper permit prices with little enforcement. This is where we are at now I suppose Quote
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.