Throw'em a bone

[Sksman]

1 hour ago, stoney said:

I was thinking the same thing about people having the opportunity to go on a lake, field, etc…to have a chance to be exposed, or best case friend or family that has spare sled to try it out. 
For me it was a family that let me try his sled, that turned into a weekend rental trip and then my own purchase. 

But that does not change the permit price or change who will come, IMO - if they decide at that point they enjoy it, thoughts turn to many of the other expenses in order to dive in, that will not become cheaper in this day and age that no one can influence. 
 

Set permit price at what it needs to be (the cheapest part of the sport) and enforce the use of the trails by the means required. 
For anyone using the permit as a reason not to stay in the sport, are already done with it or looking for reasons to be, and are just complaining about nothing. 
 

The permit I bought this year, I am not even sure made it into my sled, I know for sure I did not ride any OFSC trails…which I think makes that two years in a row for me…lol!

So where does the price need to be?

 

I have a cottage in an area close to lake Simcoe.  I can ride unassumed roads to Lake Simcoe.  There are lots of people who just ride lakes.

 

I spoke to a number of riders who buy permits but maybe won’t next year.  After a great snow winter and no trails in our area due to technicalities they might be hard to get back.

 

Whether you like it or not they are price sensitive.  And the OFSC needs more permit sales or less costs=less trails!
 

I have ridden over 11,000km total or so last 3 years.  Safe to say I am not as price sensitive.  And will buy permits.
 

 

 

 

 

[stoney]

14 minutes ago, Spiderman said:

The OFSC hand clubs have done absolutely everything they can to drive new ridership.

 

overall costs and lousy weather are working against it.

 
I have taken 10 plus friends sledding for the 1st time.

not oneof them has bought a sled, and isn’t because they didn’t enjoy it.

 

cost and time are the factors

Yep, factors that can’t be controlled. 
 

The younger folks who likely have the time, don’t have the funds. 
The “older” crowd that now may have the funds, may not have the time or the passion to pursue it.

 

4 minutes ago, Sksman said:

So where does the price need to be?

 

I have a cottage in an area close to lake Simcoe.  I can ride unassumed roads to Lake Simcoe.  There are lots of people who just ride lakes.

 

I spoke to a number of riders who buy permits but maybe won’t next year.  After a great snow winter and no trails in our area due to technicalities they might be hard to get back.

 

Whether you like it or not they are price sensitive.  And the OFSC needs more permit sales or less costs=less trails!
 

I have ridden over 11,000km total or so last 3 years.  Safe to say I am not as price sensitive.  And will buy permits.
 

I don’t know, but there has to be a matrix that tells the OFSC what it needs to be year after year that is pretty easy to identify what the cost needs to be. 

Just look at QC, they have the more consistent climate and the passionate ridership to support the sport and they increase it year after year - what does that tell you. 

I too live very close to Simcoe, this area used to be a great spot for day rides or even to start your ride to spend at a cottage in district 7, not anymore nor has been for a while, that will not change. 
I know the reality is the ridership is shrinking, but what I’m saying is that’s out of the OFSC hands, the factors for that are beyond them so set the price what is needed to support what can be supported, the permit price is not what attracts new riders, I think people are naive to still think that, there are too many other factors that are far more significant. 
People who are price sensitive to just the permit, IMO, are not going to be around for long or they truly do not comprehend what the permit price entails, or more importantly, what it does not include, like all the work done by people for FREE!!!

[skidooboy]

Another thing that has affected permit buying is, local trails. Once the OFSC made TOP trails their priority, several local trails, loops were closed, and the clubs were not allowed to groom them any longer. The Dub, Wawa area were heavily affected by this. It is a shame that several awesome trails were closed, left unmaintained. What is puzzling to me is some areas have lots of local loops, while others were told, no more. At one time Dub and Wawa were The Hub, for 4 directions of trails, with a lot of local, and multiple "day loops" available. Many locals only ride local, and do not tour. They ride to cottages, to fish, or maybe to the next town to get a bite to eat, or see friends. They do not see the value in the permits any longer. Most of our area is Crown land, with many logging, trapping, fishing bush roads/trails. So the locals just utilized those, and forgo the permit. I honestly dont blame them, some times, groups feel left out, and this is one of those times. Ski

[PISTON LAKE CRUISER]

10 hours ago, stoney said:

don’t know, but there has to be a matrix that tells the OFSC what it needs to be year after year that is pretty easy to identify what the cost needs to be. 

The other major issue is that the OFSC does not control the permit cost. I believe the MTO still has the final say on what any increase will be. Don't ask me why!

[stoney]

28 minutes ago, PISTON LAKE CRUISER said:

The other major issue is that the OFSC does not control the permit cost. I believe the MTO still has the final say on what any increase will be. Don't ask me why!

Ya, but the OFSC should be able to support the need for an increase with data on the costs of keeping the doors open so to speak - should not be a hard argument to make. 

[signfan]

1 hour ago, PISTON LAKE CRUISER said:

The other major issue is that the OFSC does not control the permit cost. I believe the MTO still has the final say on what any increase will be. Don't ask me why!

What does OFSC get for giving up control of permits to MTO again?  Some days you have to question if this decision should be looked at again.  Yes it's a legal requirement, but with limited enforcement does it matter?

 

I question if OFSC should consider 3 or 4 areas to implement limited snow making.  Like a 50 km loop in the ganaraska forest.  Or a similar area close to Barrie, London, Kitchener or Ottawa.  Give it daily grooming and operate it similar to a ski hill.  It'd provide that value to the southern riders.  Would be interesting to see if it would be feasible ran as a test pilot in one area.  The issue isn't permit prices.  Snowmobilers have the money and let's be honest the permit is chump change compared to the other costs of the sport.  The issue is perceived value for the money spent.  Like it or not there are folks that just won't drive to the snow 4 - 8 hrs away.  But they would trailer in their local area to ride all winter long.  I spent $1000 on night passes for skiing last winter.  Had no issue with the cost as I knew the hill would be open for 8 plus weeks and we would use them.

[Spiderman]

Why would the MTO care what the price is.

[Strong Farmer]

3 hours ago, signfan said:

What does OFSC get for giving up control of permits to MTO again?  Some days you have to question if this decision should be looked at again.  Yes it's a legal requirement, but with limited enforcement does it matter?

 

I question if OFSC should consider 3 or 4 areas to implement limited snow making.  Like a 50 km loop in the ganaraska forest.  Or a similar area close to Barrie, London, Kitchener or Ottawa.  Give it daily grooming and operate it similar to a ski hill.  It'd provide that value to the southern riders.  Would be interesting to see if it would be feasible ran as a test pilot in one area.  The issue isn't permit prices.  Snowmobilers have the money and let's be honest the permit is chump change compared to the other costs of the sport.  The issue is perceived value for the money spent.  Like it or not there are folks that just won't drive to the snow 4 - 8 hrs away.  But they would trailer in their local area to ride all winter long.  I spent $1000 on night passes for skiing last winter.  Had no issue with the cost as I knew the hill would be open for 8 plus weeks and we would use them.

Snow making one would be a huge logistical challenge. I know hailburton forest tried it and it turned out easier to go into bush and push it back onto trail to help build  base when trails are thin, then to actually make it again.  

[Wildbill]

9 hours ago, PISTON LAKE CRUISER said:

The other major issue is that the OFSC does not control the permit cost. I believe the MTO still has the final say on what any increase will be. Don't ask me why!

The bill 101 promise that we voted for was not what we were promised. We were promised tral permit enforcement and investment from the province instead we got next to no enforcement,lowered funding,intensive provincial control and interference,club emancipation,removal of groomers and more. 

[signfan]

15 minutes ago, Wildbill said:

The bill 101 promise that we voted for was not what we were promised. We were promised tral permit enforcement and investment from the province instead we got next to no enforcement,lowered funding,intensive provincial control and interference,club emancipation,removal of groomers and more. 

Yep.  The funding from the gov't has gotten smaller each year.  Especially with inflation factored in.

[Spiderman]

22 minutes ago, signfan said:

Yep.  The funding from the gov't has gotten smaller each year.  Especially with inflation factored in.

Don’t expect it to grow either, unless your plan is turn sled trails into e-bike trails.

[Strong Farmer]

4 hours ago, Spiderman said:

Don’t expect it to grow either, unless your plan is turn sled trails into e-bike trails.

Right now I pay 300 for a permit no problem. My insurance is more than that on sled and I always pay it too. 👍  Ofsc should be able to raise prices after great winter we had 👌. Even my business we are doing 35 percent more for same money as 15 years ago. Revenue not growing compared to expenses. Same dilemma. 
ofsc use to partner with marks and get discount cards. Be nice if they could do something like that again for early buyers 👌
 

[mach Z]

Its a provincial trail system. You have to have a sled licensed and insured. Make the yearly fee $100.00 and give the money taken back to the clubs. 

 

You cant have it both ways. Either its provincially run, enforced and under a rule of law thus properly funded or nothing and its a free for all. But to bitch about a trail permit under $400 in this day and age is ridiculous. 

[PISTON LAKE CRUISER]

7 hours ago, Strong Farmer said:

Even my business we are doing 35 percent more for same money as 15 years ago. Revenue not growing compared to expenses. Same dilemma. 

The difference between your business and the OFSC is that for many years chicken farmers were making huge profits. I don't remember a time when the OFSC had that kind of profits at the end of a season.

[Strong Farmer]

4 hours ago, PISTON LAKE CRUISER said:

The difference between your business and the OFSC is that for many years chicken farmers were making huge profits. I don't remember a time when the OFSC had that kind of profits at the end of a season.

Not sure about that one.  I never made huge profits but I keep re investing back in to gain efficiency's and to live another day. I make enough to pay my bills that's about it. Be lucky if I retire by 65.
I was told by a few contractors not many farmers like me left now. Most don't do any pm maintaince and just call when stuff breaks 😆.

[Dave K]

10 hours ago, Strong Farmer said:

Not sure about that one.  I never made huge profits but I keep re investing back in to gain efficiency's and to live another day. I make enough to pay my bills that's about it. Be lucky if I retire by 65.
I was told by a few contractors not many farmers like me left now. Most don't do any pm maintaince and just call when stuff breaks 😆.

Hog slat in Mitchell told me one time they have a customer they go to, even if its just to replace a fluorescent light tube in a barn

[Strong Farmer]

8 hours ago, Dave K said:

Hog slat in Mitchell told me one time they have a customer they go to, even if its just to replace a fluorescent light tube in a barn

That's why I still use regular a19 ones 😆. 
I had a cross auger motor fail a few weeks ago. I got old one out before crew arrived. Took two of us to push augar back in while third fastened it down. How long do they last for you typically.   I rebuilt an emergency spare again and keep it on shelf. All wired ready to go. One that failed was 9 years in service 

[Dave K]

54 minutes ago, Strong Farmer said:

That's why I still use regular a19 ones 😆. 
I had a cross auger motor fail a few weeks ago. I got old one out before crew arrived. Took two of us to push augar back in while third fastened it down. How long do they last for you typically.   I rebuilt an emergency spare again and keep it on shelf. All wired ready to go. One that failed was 9 years in service 

1 feed auger turned 49 last November, the other reached that age a few weeks ago LOL.💪💪💪

 

I use very few flex augers.  Just from commodity bins to the mixer for shorts ( 100 t annually) and soyameal (250 t annually).

 

Corn is a rigid auger.  Make my own feed on farm.   

 

My finisher barn is a chain disk system.  I replaced the drive unit once, it was about 20 yrs old at the time, that was about 10 years ago.  Did chain inside in 2014, as I added an addition to the barn, and didnt want a mix of old and new chain.

 

Pipes are the biggest wear item.  Used galvanized last time(2020 ish), but likely go stainless next time.

[Strong Farmer]

9 minutes ago, Dave K said:

1 feed auger turned 49 last November, the other reached that age a few weeks ago LOL.💪💪💪

 

I use very few flex augers.  Just from commodity bins to the mixer for shorts ( 100 t annually) and soyameal (250 t annually).

 

Corn is a rigid auger.  Make my own feed on farm.   

 

My finisher barn is a chain disk system.  I replaced the drive unit once, it was about 20 yrs old at the time, that was about 10 years ago.  Did chain inside in 2014, as I added an addition to the barn, and didnt want a mix of old and new chain.

 

Pipes are the biggest wear item.  Used galvanized last time(2020 ish), but likely go stainless next time.

Wow 49 years that's amazing 👌. 

[Dave K]

1 minute ago, Strong Farmer said:

Wow 49 years that's amazing 👌. 

Lol,  that's me, the other one is my wife.  Feed scoop and a feed cart.

[Strong Farmer]

3 minutes ago, Dave K said:

Lol,  that's me, the other one is my wife.  Feed scoop and a feed cart.

I could only imagine. No way my wife would do that she be long gone 😆. 
 

[Re:Leaf]

That’s a big milestone for the feed auger, turning 50 this year 👍

[T bird]

On 6/1/2025 at 9:25 PM, stoney said:

Ya, but the OFSC should be able to support the need for an increase with data on the costs of keeping the doors open so to speak - should not be a hard argument to make. 

Too many hands in the cookie jar!

[Dave K]

23 hours ago, Re:Leaf said:

That’s a big milestone for the feed auger, turning 50 this year 👍

Realized a few years back, with some careful planning, and not missing any appointments, I can make my 100th blood donation on the same day as my 50th Bday.