2025 OFSC permit now available for Order

[signfan]

10 hours ago, RAMSOMAIR said:

I've been saying we need to adopt the Que model for decades.

How does the OFSC do this?  From what I can see it's Quebec following Ontarios lead on a lot of organizational changes (the good parts anyways).  Quebec has a population that the majority lives within an hour of the snowbelt or closer.  In Ontario that's 4 hours.  That snow belt is at higher latitude and elevation to boot making it more reliable weather wise.  Totally different political will to invest from politicians and the majority of the population.  Insurance environments are completely different as well.  I do think OFSC made a cpl errors with permit prices through covid.  But all in all they are doing a good job with what they have.  Arguably too good on some fronts.  Dragging the volunteers through the lup issue this year instead of just accepting a higher insurance bill and passing the costs onto the membership is case in point.  Maybe I'm wrong, but it's the impression I get from the outside with no internal knowledge.  

 

I can see someone who didn't ride last year not seeing value in a permit.  But in the same boat you got no value from the insurance bill, sled maintenance costs and the depreciation on the sled.  Permit is still the cheapest part of that.  Unless you plan to sell it all no point in not buying the permit.  I considered last season a donation to a non profit to ensure it exists next year when I take full advantage of it (like I have many years in the past).  The weather trends are definitely troubling for the OFSC's long term outlook.  I still think a technological breakthrough in snow management or snow making is the only long term solution (maybe on a smaller footprint).  Not sure saving all of the southern districts trails is essential to keep the system viable.  Have a look at how many ski resorts exist south of Kitchener.  Almost non-existent.  But downhill skiing still exists in the province.  Can you draw the line at North Bay and survive.  No.  But at Barrie yes that might work.  Always an interesting debate. 

 

Permits are bought and I plan to find snow this winter near or far.  I hope everyone else does to.

[Strong Farmer]

2 hours ago, signfan said:

How does the OFSC do this?  From what I can see it's Quebec following Ontarios lead on a lot of organizational changes (the good parts anyways).  Quebec has a population that the majority lives within an hour of the snowbelt or closer.  In Ontario that's 4 hours.  That snow belt is at higher latitude and elevation to boot making it more reliable weather wise.  Totally different political will to invest from politicians and the majority of the population.  Insurance environments are completely different as well.  I do think OFSC made a cpl errors with permit prices through covid.  But all in all they are doing a good job with what they have.  Arguably too good on some fronts.  Dragging the volunteers through the lup issue this year instead of just accepting a higher insurance bill and passing the costs onto the membership is case in point.  Maybe I'm wrong, but it's the impression I get from the outside with no internal knowledge.  

 

I can see someone who didn't ride last year not seeing value in a permit.  But in the same boat you got no value from the insurance bill, sled maintenance costs and the depreciation on the sled.  Permit is still the cheapest part of that.  Unless you plan to sell it all no point in not buying the permit.  I considered last season a donation to a non profit to ensure it exists next year when I take full advantage of it (like I have many years in the past).  The weather trends are definitely troubling for the OFSC's long term outlook.  I still think a technological breakthrough in snow management or snow making is the only long term solution (maybe on a smaller footprint).  Not sure saving all of the southern districts trails is essential to keep the system viable.  Have a look at how many ski resorts exist south of Kitchener.  Almost non-existent.  But downhill skiing still exists in the province.  Can you draw the line at North Bay and survive.  No.  But at Barrie yes that might work.  Always an interesting debate. 

 

Permits are bought and I plan to find snow this winter near or far.  I hope everyone else does to.

Well done I be happy if I get a few weekends out of my 2025 permit.  Things are changing for sure hopefully Barrie area gets some snow that's only a few hours for me 😎. 
Hailburton forest tried snow making technology. They ended up canning it. Said it was too much for little reward and they had easy lake access. Instead they resort to pushing snow out of bush onto trail ie in corners as an example. 
a few years ago when snow was lean hailburton got snow from municipal works people. Instead of hauling it to snow dump they hauled it a trail access where groomer can pick it up and spread it out. I thought that was resourceful since it's getting loaded and hauled anyways 😎.  
Last year we had some pretty heavy snow dumps in district 5 and 9. One day we recieved over 2 feet of snow. Groomers were out and making most of it. Trails were open for a few days maybe 3 before rain came and wiped away effort . Can't say they didn't try. I  rode one of those days and trails were good for amount of snow we had. Everyone including there dog was out that day 😎

[RAMSOMAIR]

I know everyone cringes when we say gov't involvement but I believe QC has a ton of it and it seems to work. 

[stoney]

Province of QC is very different from ON in many ways. 
I don’t think Ontarians could be like Quebecers at all, nor do we have what they have in many ways as well.
But for sure our province could support sledding more, especially in regions that can support the sport more frequently, like the northern parts and not the south, which I think that might cause some issues/conflicts, however the province I’m sure would then deal with criticism from other Ontarians, where in Quebec, they welcome and support it on a much bigger scale. 
Keep in mind QC receives the most in equalization payments, pays more tax on all purchases, pays more income tax, etc…

 

[RAMSOMAIR]

The economic impact of snowmobiling is huge. Ont govt needs to have more skin in the game. 

[Spiderman]

We need to move past the we need to be like Quebec ideology.

 

It simply can’t be done without substantial changes to laws and a complete reform and overhaul of how insurance is administered and the laws that go along with it.

 

Snowmobiling in Ontario is not big enough to affect that kind of sweeping change.

 

[stoney]

1 hour ago, RAMSOMAIR said:

The economic impact of snowmobiling is huge. Ont govt needs to have more skin in the game. 

Agreed and yes they do. 
 

32 minutes ago, Spiderman said:

We need to move past the we need to be like Quebec ideology.

 

It simply can’t be done without substantial changes to laws and a complete reform and overhaul of how insurance is administered and the laws that go along with it.

 

Snowmobiling in Ontario is not big enough to affect that kind of sweeping change.

 

From an insurance and weather stand point, not at all. 
But with the support from residents, governments, financial, etc…it could be closer to QC.

 

9 minutes ago, UsedtoSkidoo said:

when you run an organization that is a multi-million dollar revenue generating enterprise like one, then you get the respect it deserves. When you don't then it gets swept aside. 

I do not know what the OFSC does or does not do to lobby the government for support and in past history the answer seem to always be if you want to know, get involved -  not very transparent or good for the sport, imo. 
Maybe they are and falls on deaf ears because that’s Ontario for you as an example - rather then remove barriers, we put more up, which sadly is tied to our insurance and provincial law systems…

Of course all the non winter enthusiasts, which Ontario has a lot of, compared to QC, would wine and complain about public money going to the sport which are “a bunch of reckless drunk people” wasting our emergency workers time, even though it’s easily justified from an economic standpoint….and of course that above statement is false!

[Strong Farmer]

26 minutes ago, stoney said:

Agreed and yes they do. 
 

From an insurance and weather stand point, not at all. 
But with the support from residents, governments, financial, etc…it could be closer to QC.

 

I do not know what the OFSC does or does not do to lobby the government for support and in past history the answer seem to always be if you want to know, get involved -  not very transparent or good for the sport, imo. 
Maybe they are and falls on deaf ears because that’s Ontario for you as an example - rather then remove barriers, we put more up, which sadly is tied to our insurance and provincial law systems…

Of course all the non winter enthusiasts, which Ontario has a lot of, compared to QC, would wine and complain about public money going to the sport which are “a bunch of reckless drunk people” wasting our emergency workers time, even though it’s easily justified from an economic standpoint….and of course that above statement is false!

Last I heard ofsc gets around 3 million a year from government.  That was a few years ago. Grants available too but process to utilize them involves a huge process. I am sure ofsc has some paid staff to help with grant process and improve infrasture.  I am sure it still takes allot or volunteer hours from clubs too to get these grants approved. When I do them for my farm they often come back and ask more questions, want more information before pictures, then after pictures before I see any money.  This is on top of 15 page process it usually takes to complete an application. Whole process can take a few years or even longer to get approved and paid. 

[Domino]

17 hours ago, Strong Farmer said:

 Can't be much worse than last year right 😎. 

 

LOL  Fair point.   I hope not.

[Domino]

1 hour ago, RAMSOMAIR said:

The economic impact of snowmobiling is huge. Ont govt needs to have more skin in the game. 

Could be a simple as Laws to limit liability.   That could really help the "Cover our asses" OFSC.

[Domino]

1 hour ago, Spiderman said:

We need to move past the we need to be like Quebec ideology.

 

It simply can’t be done without substantial changes to laws and a complete reform and overhaul of how insurance is administered and the laws that go along with it.

 

Snowmobiling in Ontario is not big enough to affect that kind of sweeping change.

 

It may not be just Snowmobiling that lobbies for it.  ATV trails, Cross Country Skiing, and other activities that traverse private lands.   If we give up before we try, it will certainly fail.

[Spiderman]

1 hour ago, Domino said:

It may not be just Snowmobiling that lobbies for it.  ATV trails, Cross Country Skiing, and other activities that traverse private lands.   If we give up before we try, it will certainly fail.

Sled insurance is tied to the OAP.

We have overlapping issues here.

It’s not just the Occupiers Liability Act.

 

 

[Strong Farmer]

7 minutes ago, Spiderman said:

Sled insurance is tied to the OAP.

We have overlapping issues here.

It’s not just the Occupiers Liability Act.

 

 

Yes something like that would work on government krown land, but not on private property that's for sure.  We are lucky we can even use private land to snowmobile on. As family's can't afford land no more and big investors buy it up, they will shut the door on trail access. They are trying to buy almost 800 acres in our township at moment as a prime example of what can happen any where in province. 

[volunteer2]

2 OFSC permits ordered and  the first seasonal Quebec permit ordered.  The 1 group I ride with are buying seasonals in Quebec. No ofsc permit  for them this year.  They figure they can buy a 3 day later if we do a NL Cochrane Timmons ride.  Right now we are planning a 5 or 6 day ride Quebec with 1 group and just 1 3 day trip makes the seasonal sense.  Obviously we  gotta have our OFSC  permits.  We ride from the garage to the trail on our farm and we are good to go   Even a short trailer ride to D9 and we have a good ride.  We need snow We need snow 

[coldfinger]

On 10/27/2024 at 5:54 AM, RAMSOMAIR said:

I know everyone cringes when we say gov't involvement but I believe QC has a ton of it and it seems to work. 

 

Quebec gov't involvement from all levels for bridges on multi use trails. We crossed  4 like this in about 50 k of trail . 1.2 Million yeah its big business . Each bridge had this sign with the amount of  contribution including the local club and regional associations . 

[Spiderman]

Nothing wrong with government involvement, but majority of it should be funding, and only funding.

 

 

[Strong Farmer]

17 minutes ago, Spiderman said:

Nothing wrong with government involvement, but majority of it should be funding, and only funding.

 

 

Well we do get some funding around 3 million now, down from 5 million in past I believe!  Grants are available for infrastructure ever year it just takes a crap load of paperwork to get them approved. It's a full time job trying to get these things approved, most times. Lots of projects in Ontario that get grant money and private hands to fix infrastructure. Then 3 years later property owners change then they don't want trail any more. Seen this scenario happen a few times already. 
I like to see more shared trails between atv's and sleds where  government owns or controls the land via an easement and no one can pull it away. 
Elliot lake is a prime example of this great infrastructure. Shared atv and snowmobile trail network in that area is amazing.

[signfan]

59 minutes ago, Strong Farmer said:

Well we do get some funding around 3 million now, down from 5 million in past I believe!  Grants are available for infrastructure ever year it just takes a crap load of paperwork to get them approved. It's a full time job trying to get these things approved, most times. Lots of projects in Ontario that get grant money and private hands to fix infrastructure. Then 3 years later property owners change then they don't want trail any more. Seen this scenario happen a few times already. 
I like to see more shared trails between atv's and sleds where  government owns or controls the land via an easement and no one can pull it away. 
Elliot lake is a prime example of this great infrastructure. Shared atv and snowmobile trail network in that area is amazing.

Your numbers are way off.  Under $1 million per year.

[Spiderman]

2 hours ago, signfan said:

Your numbers are way off.  Under $1 million per year.

So essentially nothing.

Amazing

 

[PISTON LAKE CRUISER]

4 hours ago, Strong Farmer said:

I like to see more shared trails between atv's and sleds where  government owns or controls the land via an easement and no one can pull it away. 

So its OK with you if the government takes some of your farmland for this purpose.

[stoney]

4 hours ago, Strong Farmer said:

I like to see more shared trails between atv's and sleds where  government owns or controls the land via an easement and no one can pull it away. 

 

4 minutes ago, PISTON LAKE CRUISER said:

So its OK with you if the government takes some of your farmland for this purpose.

 

Who owns all the ATV trails in the province that are shared between the two sports now?

I thought it was crown land, maybe some is private - if private, you bring up government trying to control that, say bye bye to that land use.....that was a huge issue a few years ago when we saw all those sign about "hands off our land".

 

For crown land, I know this has been mentioned a number of times, but if a sled trail runs on that, can anyone technically use it without needing to follow the OFSC guidelines during the sledding season or once OFSC gets approval for use of that land during the season, they become the caretaker/owner of it for the sledding season and the OFSC rules need to be followed/enforced?

[stoney]

1 hour ago, Spiderman said:

So essentially nothing.

Amazing

 

How much is that figure again that sledders add to the economy, tax base, etc.... - I thought I recall there was a member last year that said this was recently brought up as a focal point.

1 Mil really would be a small drop in the bucket....

[Panther340]

1 hour ago, stoney said:

 

 

Who owns all the ATV trails in the province that are shared between the two sports now?

I thought it was crown land, maybe some is private - if private, you bring up government trying to control that, say bye bye to that land use.....that was a huge issue a few years ago when we saw all those sign about "hands off our land".

 

For crown land, I know this has been mentioned a number of times, but if a sled trail runs on that, can anyone technically use it without needing to follow the OFSC guidelines during the sledding season or once OFSC gets approval for use of that land during the season, they become the caretaker/owner of it for the sledding season and the OFSC rules need to be followed/enforced?

If you want a bit of an eye opener about what is crown land and what is not see below gov link.... after you agree to terms of link etc layers are ..pale yellow is crown , other colours is private land or native land or park land..... around me here in Echo Bay I have to drive 30 minutes to Thessalon before some consistent crown land.....and north of Sault along highway 17 most contiguous townships are private or park to Wawa, more of that towards Chapleau and even west a bit.  And  Crown land south of North Bay becomes rare quickly ......so private owner agreements are plentiful all over much of Ontario.      https://www.lioapplications.lrc.gov.on.ca/CLUPA/index.html?viewer=CLUPA.CLUPA&locale=en-CA

[Spiderman]

2 hours ago, stoney said:

How much is that figure again that sledders add to the economy, tax base, etc.... - I thought I recall there was a member last year that said this was recently brought up as a focal point.

1 Mil really would be a small drop in the bucket....

Yeah, I recall the number being quite large - not sure what it was.

That said, its the same old anyway, we can beat that drum all we want - the "government" does not care.

 

We had a discussion yesterday about some of this stuff.

 

The one person made a good point - that federally - there isn't much we can do - or try to do - to hold anyone federally accountable to anything that will bring meaningful change to our lives.

 

Where we need to focus the energy is provincially and locally - because that is where anything that will better your actual life will get done or could be done.

 

It makes sense to me

 

anyways, back on topic.

 

$1 million dollars for the OFSC is a slap in the face

[Spiderman]

54 minutes ago, Panther340 said:

If you want a bit of an eye opener about what is crown land and what is not see below gov link.... after you agree to terms of link etc layers are ..pale yellow is crown , other colours is private land or native land or park land..... around me here in Echo Bay I have to drive 30 minutes to Thessalon before some consistent crown land.....and north of Sault along highway 17 most contiguous townships are private or park to Wawa, more of that towards Chapleau and even west a bit.  And  Crown land south of North Bay becomes rare quickly ......so private owner agreements are plentiful all over much of Ontario.      https://www.lioapplications.lrc.gov.on.ca/CLUPA/index.html?viewer=CLUPA.CLUPA&locale=en-CA

 Our entire preferred riding area is private land - other than the lake trail and the road trail!

 

We need landowners generosity or we're dead in the water.

And no, I don't think the government should be able to just "take" or "designate" anything from anyone's bought and paid for property for anything other than what those who paid for it desire it to be used for.