2024 Snowcrest Agm

[Nunz]

On Sunday September 8th Snowcrest Riders held their Annual General Meeting and the following is quick snapshot of the Status of the Club.
Also a big topic talked about was, In March of 2024 we were given notice from the OFSC that by November 1st we as a club would need to have every signed landowner permission uploaded into the OFSC Landowner Infrastructure Tool. Without that document uploaded we will not be able to open that section or trail.

The club has been working on it since then trying our best so that we could have trails available for this upcoming season.

As it sits today we still many many landowners that we need to have signed landowner permission forms.

What does that mean for snowmobiling in and around Gravenhurst? The simple answer is that as of today we would not be able to open one single trail on our network of trails unless we get help from the ridership in completing this task or we get help from the OFSC.

We are all volunteers and have full time jobs and families and other responsibilities that we have to attend to and simply cannot handle this monumental task on our own.

Using one section of trail as an example on the C101D near Pine Lake we have a landowner that despite many efforts through FB, email and voicemail we have not been able to contact and  need assistance in securing a renewed permission form which could result in the closure of that trail.  We are not the only club in Ontario dealing with this and the deadline is rapidly approaching.

If anyone is able to help please feel free to reach out to us at [info@snowcrestriders.com](mailto:info@snowcrestriders.com) or PM me directly.

Thanks for taking the time to read this and please feel free to share this post as we feel that there needs to be an awareness that almost Snowmobile club in Ontario needs help right now to ensure the future of this sport.

We would like to thank Henry Vandevalk for his years of service for helping make our club a better place and wish him all the best

John Lake will be stepping down as Treasurer and Rob Isabelle will be transitioning into his new role for the club

Mesha Atkinson has joined the board and thank you.

Regards

Nunzio Iacobellis

President Snowcrest Riders Gravenhurst

[grover_yyz]

We are also having issues with many landowners we are trying to contact. We are having a lot of difficulty with larger landowners and government and Hydro One is a one landowner that appear to not want to have anything to do with us or snowmobiling. I am glad OFSC has taken over dealing with Hydro One.

We have been working on renewals of landowners since early summer and still many more to renew.

 

Jerry

VP Heart of Ontario Snowmobile Club

[volunteer2]

On 9/9/2024 at 6:56 PM, Nunz said:

On Sunday September 8th Snowcrest Riders held their Annual General Meeting and the following is quick snapshot of the Status of the Club.
Also a big topic talked about was, In March of 2024 we were given notice from the OFSC that by November 1st we as a club would need to have every signed landowner permission uploaded into the OFSC Landowner Infrastructure Tool. Without that document uploaded we will not be able to open that section or trail.

The club has been working on it since then trying our best so that we could have trails available for this upcoming season.

As it sits today we still many many landowners that we need to have signed landowner permission forms.

What does that mean for snowmobiling in and around Gravenhurst? The simple answer is that as of today we would not be able to open one single trail on our network of trails unless we get help from the ridership in completing this task or we get help from the OFSC.

We are all volunteers and have full time jobs and families and other responsibilities that we have to attend to and simply cannot handle this monumental task on our own.

Using one section of trail as an example on the C101D near Pine Lake we have a landowner that despite many efforts through FB, email and voicemail we have not been able to contact and  need assistance in securing a renewed permission form which could result in the closure of that trail.  We are not the only club in Ontario dealing with this and the deadline is rapidly approaching.

If anyone is able to help please feel free to reach out to us at [info@snowcrestriders.com](mailto:info@snowcrestriders.com) or PM me directly.

Thanks for taking the time to read this and please feel free to share this post as we feel that there needs to be an awareness that almost Snowmobile club in Ontario needs help right now to ensure the future of this sport.

We would like to thank Henry Vandevalk for his years of service for helping make our club a better place and wish him all the best

John Lake will be stepping down as Treasurer and Rob Isabelle will be transitioning into his new role for the club

Mesha Atkinson has joined the board and thank you.

Regards

Nunzio Iacobellis

President Snowcrest Riders Gravenhurst

 

On 9/9/2024 at 7:29 PM, grover_yyz said:

We are also having issues with many landowners we are trying to contact. We are having a lot of difficulty with larger landowners and government and Hydro One is a one landowner that appear to not want to have anything to do with us or snowmobiling. I am glad OFSC has taken over dealing with Hydro One.

We have been working on renewals of landowners since early summer and still many more to renew.

 

Jerry

VP Heart of Ontario Snowmobile Club

Just wondering if these posts should be in Main Clubhouse    I missed them earlier but this issue is Very very important and everyone should be aware of it    We also are working hard to get everyone signed up   

[Spiderman]

Are the agreements annual?

 

[skidooboy]

Yes, they are dated start and stop dates, for insurance and liability purposes. Ski

[Spiderman]

1 hour ago, skidooboy said:

Yes, they are dated start and stop dates, for insurance and liability purposes. Ski

got it.

Can see how that would be some work. I assume they need to be signed/witnessed in person?

Does the "witness" need to be an identified member of the club?

[PISTON LAKE CRUISER]

38 minutes ago, Spiderman said:

got it.

Can see how that would be some work. I assume they need to be signed/witnessed in person?

Does the "witness" need to be an identified member of the club?

There is a spot on the form for the club info. and for a signature of someone from the club. No mention of witness. There is also a spot to fill in the info. for the club contact and for an OFSC District office contact.

Our club trails are mostly on farmland and so there are quite a number of landowners since the trail may only cross one or a number of fields for each landowner.

 

[topnotch]

The signed agreements can be in place for up to 10 years. Often the landowner sets the deadline to their preference. 

 

Contacting all the individual landowners is very time consuming for club members of course, but part of the problem is just being able to track down and speak to the actual landowner, whether it is on the phone or through email. If a landowner doesn't live in the area it can take a long time just to be in a position to speak with the landowner and often they won't have a clue about the snowmobile trails. Personally, I've been trying to receive a signed agreement back via mail since June, and how often do you feel comfortable in asking the landowner for the agreement? Because if you upset them, you might never get the agreement. And a re route might not be possible. 

 

So yes, some landowners don't like snowmobilers and won't let the club on their land no matter what. But if the club rep is able to have a conversation with a reasonable landowner and explain how the insurance works, an agreement can be put in place easily. 

 

Nunz, good luck with your search, I feel for you. Sorry I can't be of more assistance. 

 

The 2025 season is going to be drastically different even if it is a good winter. 

 

Andrew, 

VP of French River Snowmobile Association 

[yamadan700]

We have the same issue here as do all the clubs. We have discussed this at our last club meeting. 

 

Not sure where this ultimatum came from.

I assume there must be legal action against the OFSC/landowner from some quality individual who did nothing wrong on the trails and is suing the OFSC/landowner because the trail somehow injured them as it is never their fault! 

My other assumption is that an incident may have happened on a trail that may have crossed a section of private/public property that the club didn't think it crossed and did not have a LUP. I honestly don't know.

 

It is very hard to get in contact with many landowners as many don't live in the area as "Topnotch" stated. Some are just numbered companies. They don't answer emails, phone messages, etc.. It is a lot to ask of the volunteers in a short amount of time as we do have other life obligations.

 

We used to have open ended contracts with many landowners(local and not local) as they don't want to be bothered with signing new contracts every year/few years. Not 100% sure if open ended contracts still applies tho. Regardless we all have to get in contact with all the landowners.

It's a huge pain in the ass to get this all resolved by Nov 1st.

 

I do believe this will be an issue for this coming season for many clubs. As "Nunz" stated, there could be some trail closures due to this. Go easy on the clubs when there is copious amounts of snow in your area and you don't know why the trails aren't open.

 

Curious if this was discussed at the OFSC AGM this weekend. I'm sure it was. We/I will find out soon.

 

 

 

[Spiderman]

More doors closing than opening.

ride while you can cause it’ll be gone within 10 years.

[Strong Farmer]

4 minutes ago, Spiderman said:

More doors closing than opening.

ride while you can cause it’ll be gone within 10 years.

That's what I thought 10 years ago. 
Current volunteers that have relationships with land owners that keep permission in place. When Joe can't do it anymore and retires, new guy won't have same loyality to keeping permission in place. This isn't always case but helps for sure. 
Thie sport will continue as long as people buy permits, volunteer, repect land owners and property and weather co-operates. Amen 

[95rxl650]

I know of 2 people that plant and harvest large tracts of land and no longer even know who owns the land. What was once a hand shake agreement is now handled through a lawyer. Things like storage buildings wont even be entertained now. Forget even trying to inquire about the complications of a trail. Insurance companies tend to scare people off these days. It's just the times we live in. 

I believe we will see alot more road running in the future for central and southern Ontario

[volunteer2]

Got more news on this issue last night.      Info from the AGM indicated this issue is province wide.    If the LUP isn't completed the trail won't be put on the Interactive guide. And now there is some mapping that shows incorrect land ownerships.    Exclusions then can be applied for, which is also time consuming.   I'm pretty much an optimist but this doesn't look good for this year.....,.,.   

[Strong Farmer]

22 minutes ago, volunteer2 said:

Got more news on this issue last night.      Info from the AGM indicated this issue is province wide.    If the LUP isn't completed the trail won't be put on the Interactive guide. And now there is some mapping that shows incorrect land ownerships.    Exclusions then can be applied for, which is also time consuming.   I'm pretty much an optimist but this doesn't look good for this year.....,.,.   

Thanks for sharing. This will be year weather co -operates  too. 
Too bad it has to be so complicated. Land is becoming very pricey too. 

[yamadan700]

34 minutes ago, volunteer2 said:

Got more news on this issue last night.      Info from the AGM indicated this issue is province wide.    If the LUP isn't completed the trail won't be put on the Interactive guide. And now there is some mapping that shows incorrect land ownerships.    Exclusions then can be applied for, which is also time consuming.   I'm pretty much an optimist but this doesn't look good for this year.....,.,.   

On the bold. 

We have had some surprises on that front! A hundred feet or more of trail here and there that isn't on property that everyone thought belonged to "Bob".

 

Hopefully most clubs don't have those issues and if they do, I hope the unsuspecting landowner is open to having a trail on his land and signs the LUP.

Could be many reroutes coming in the near future. Sigh. 

 

 

[stoney]

I’ve been on the fence this year about buying an ON permit, never have in the past.

Instead just buy a QC pass. 
This is not helping that feeling of being on the fence, I know I can’t be the only one. 

[Spiderman]

The need for these to be signed and be current make 100% complete sense and is the right thing to do because of the insurance/liability landscape we exist in. i

That said, to give this a mere few months to be completed is ridiculous - and I can only hope ( and assume ) - the delay in getting this out to the member clubs is from the insurer making the call. 

 

Once trails close, they rarely re-open - this will be a task and trail reduction will be the end result here.

 

 

 

 

[95rxl650]

Lets not forget to give mention to all those who will trespass. Hate to see this happen in the middle of transition and reduce hope of ever getting any lingering mid season contracts signed. 

[PISTON LAKE CRUISER]

23 minutes ago, stoney said:

I’ve been on the fence this year about buying an ON permit, never have in the past.

Instead just buy a QC pass. 
This is not helping that feeling of being on the fence, I know I can’t be the only one. 

I wouldn't worry too much. This job will get done by the few faithful volunteers that most clubs have. 

[skidooboy]

We usually get our LUP for our land about this time of the year. This year our new agreement came last night. Unless it is different from district/club to club/district, one thing that may turn off many land owners is, the end date of the agreement. The current start date is dec 1 2024, the end date states until further notice. I know, it made me raise my eyebrow's.

 

For those saying this was sprung on the clubs, volunteers, this is not true. The clubs have always needed the agreement signed but because of the difficultly on getting access to the owners, and having past agreements in place, it was just the norm to go the path of least resistance, until it was brought up by some entity.

 

The clubs can and should start the agreement gathering as soon as the season is over, to prep for the next. then you have 5-7 months to get them all in place, instead of a few weeks. Just this year, the mandate & subsequent threat of closure, and or inclusion and insurance protection came down stating that, 100% of the properties that trails run on must have a signed LUP, to be an active part of the system. I wonder how that will work with the crown lands? Does a gov't entity have to sign off on every property, or is this already in place? 

 

I see a cluster f*&% of a season coming, just for the signed LUP issue, and many hundreds, if not thousands of km's not linked, closed, or never opened from the LUP issue alone. Then people will just "trespass" to get from one groomed section to the next because, "that was always the way we went". I hope I am wrong, in my fears. Ski

[stoney]

9 hours ago, Spiderman said:

The need for these to be signed and be current make 100% complete sense and is the right thing to do because of the insurance/liability landscape we exist in. i

That said, to give this a mere few months to be completed is ridiculous - and I can only hope ( and assume ) - the delay in getting this out to the member clubs is from the insurer making the call. 

 

Once trails close, they rarely re-open - this will be a task and trail reduction will be the end result here.

 

 

 

 

 

8 hours ago, PISTON LAKE CRUISER said:

I wouldn't worry too much. This job will get done by the few faithful volunteers that most clubs have. 

 

Not really worried, more concerning what you see of course, but I agree, the job will get done, just not 100% done IMO, and that will just be a reality of life.

I do not think I rode in ON at all last year, this year will be very hard to ride with the kiddo sports based on the schedule we already have and its only Sept, so I might only get a trip or two and that will be QC for sure.....but we will see what happens, still feel good about supporting Ontario snowmobiling, even if I do not get a chance to experience it.

 

Personally feel with a horrible year last year, add this to the load on the clubs, this is a set up to in fact lose trails, either on purpose perhaps just a coincidence - been talks for a while about reducing the footprint, but for many that is a hard pill to swallow, and people know, once they are gone, rarely come back as Spidy stated. 

 

 

[PISTON LAKE CRUISER]

7 hours ago, skidooboy said:

the clubs can and should start the agreement gathering as soon as the season is over, to prep for the next.

The few VOLUNTEERS that do most of the work (admin & physical labour) generally need a break from club work by the time that spring comes around and wrap up club items arecompleted. Many have work or other things to do in the off season.

[volunteer2]

10 hours ago, skidooboy said:

We usually get our LUP for our land about this time of the year. This year our new agreement came last night. Unless it is different from district/club to club/district, one thing that may turn off many land owners is, the end date of the agreement. The current start date is dec 1 2024, the end date states until further notice. I know, it made me raise my eyebrow's.

 

For those saying this was sprung on the clubs, volunteers, this is not true. The clubs have always needed the agreement signed but because of the difficultly on getting access to the owners, and having past agreements in place, it was just the norm to go the path of least resistance, until it was brought up by some entity.

 

The clubs can and should start the agreement gathering as soon as the season is over, to prep for the next. then you have 5-7 months to get them all in place, instead of a few weeks. Just this year, the mandate & subsequent threat of closure, and or inclusion and insurance protection came down stating that, 100% of the properties that trails run on must have a signed LUP, to be an active part of the system. I wonder how that will work with the crown lands? Does a gov't entity have to sign off on every property, or is this already in place? 

 

I see a cluster f*&% of a season coming, just for the signed LUP issue, and many hundreds, if not thousands of km's not linked, closed, or never opened from the LUP issue alone. Then people will just "trespass" to get from one groomed section to the next because, "that was always the way we went". I hope I am wrong, in my fears. Ski

On bold section 1.    You wouldn't be wrong.  We have always tried our best to keep our LUPs up to date and it was our responsibility.     We kept them in our possession.   Now the LUPs need to be inputted to the OFSC level.    I believe this is new so that is where there is some change and concern.   This change came about for some reason.   That would be interesting to know why.  On bold section 2.   From what I was told that if even one section of trail has no LUP the entire trail will NOT BE SHOWN on the ITG.  Therefore there won't be groomed sections and ungroomed sections.   If that is incorrect I would be happy to find out . 

[stoney]

14 hours ago, volunteer2 said:

On bold section 1.    You wouldn't be wrong.  We have always tried our best to keep our LUPs up to date and it was our responsibility.     We kept them in our possession.   Now the LUPs need to be inputted to the OFSC level.    I believe this is new so that is where there is some change and concern.   This change came about for some reason.   That would be interesting to know why.  On bold section 2.   From what I was told that if even one section of trail has no LUP the entire trail will NOT BE SHOWN on the ITG.  Therefore there won't be groomed sections and ungroomed sections.   If that is incorrect I would be happy to find out . 

 

That makes sense - what is a rider to do when they hit the end of the trail so to speak, turn around and go back, you know that will not happen and people will just carry on creating an issue.

[Spiderman]

59 minutes ago, stoney said:

 

That makes sense - what is a rider to do when they hit the end of the trail so to speak, turn around and go back, you know that will not happen and people will just carry on creating an issue.

 

Well, the rider won't see the trail on the map - so presumably should not be on it to begin with?

 

I don't use the ITG or gps or any of that stuff, so we'll see how things go out there lol