2024 Toronto Power Sports Show

[PISTON LAKE CRUISER]

7 minutes ago, stoney said:

Already a discount offered for a permit that gets mailed at a cost, that adds up to fair amount when you do the math that I think is captured by a "processing" fee.

Doesn't a private company have a contract to process the permits? If that is the case would it even be possible to sell AND deliver permits at the show?

[stoney]

1 hour ago, PISTON LAKE CRUISER said:

Doesn't a private company have a contract to process the permits? If that is the case would it even be possible to sell AND deliver permits at the show?

Good point - like the contract with mto….tied to a contract. 

[crispy]

On 10/31/2025 at 3:54 PM, Sksman said:

Your theory only applies if OFSC getting revenues from sledshow.  Otherwise it’s a discount on OFSC permits to promote a private entity business.

 

? Just the first year is the only wild card. Once the data is in from ticket sales previous year compared to permit discount year the numbers can be compared and a model made that works. Plus the goal is growth is it not? Marketing strategies with advertising are hard to quantify on straight line data. Theres always a risk is essentially what I'm saying  and the losses in failure are minimal and the upshot of success are considerable.

   I see lots of bitchen and moanin and little to no ideas. You dont like my suggestion lets here some others. Everyones a critic

[Yukon]

On 10/31/2025 at 12:59 PM, crispy said:

The marketing draws for the show are lackluster as well. Advertising permits at a solidly discounted rate for attending the show would probably double show attendance. Run it one year to prove the attendance gains then work a formula on ticket price towards the club to offset the lower permit prices. Doing this builds excitement and brings out more vendors which brings out more money which grows the sport which sells more permits.

 

This was from 2007, not enough drawing power to continue.

 

https://www.supertraxmag.com/press-releases/ofsc-go-snowmobiling-show-this-week/

 

I was present for the show as well!

[Strong Farmer]

5 hours ago, crispy said:

? Just the first year is the only wild card. Once the data is in from ticket sales previous year compared to permit discount year the numbers can be compared and a model made that works. Plus the goal is growth is it not? Marketing strategies with advertising are hard to quantify on straight line data. Theres always a risk is essentially what I'm saying  and the losses in failure are minimal and the upshot of success are considerable.

   I see lots of bitchen and moanin and little to no ideas. You dont like my suggestion lets here some others. Everyones a critic

Permit is cheapest part of sport. It's also an opportunity for some riders to be cheap and not buy one. How do we change that? 

[PISTON LAKE CRUISER]

11 hours ago, Strong Farmer said:

Permit is cheapest part of sport. It's also an opportunity for some riders to be cheap and not buy one. How do we change that? 

One word.   ENFORCEMENT

[Spiderman]

1 hour ago, PISTON LAKE CRUISER said:

One word.   ENFORCEMENT

The issue with enforcement, is to get it, you need to be in bed with the MTO, and we can see now how that has worked.

 

the transfer $$$$ from permit to the OPP is likely fairly substantial.

 

what’s the return?

[PISTON LAKE CRUISER]

1 hour ago, Spiderman said:

The issue with enforcement, is to get it, you need to be in bed with the MTO, and we can see now how that has worked.

 

the transfer $$$$ from permit to the OPP is likely fairly substantial.

 

what’s the return?

I'm not disagreeing with what you are saying but enforcement is the only way to stop freeloaders on the trails. 2 counties in District 9 last year apparently had no OPP officers "trained" for snowmobile patrol so the sleds there stayed parked and the only enforcement done was roadside. It won't get better if something doesn't change.

[yamadan700]

2 hours ago, PISTON LAKE CRUISER said:

One word.   ENFORCEMENT

 

1 hour ago, Spiderman said:

The issue with enforcement, is to get it, you need to be in bed with the MTO, and we can see now how that has worked.

 

the transfer $$$$ from permit to the OPP is likely fairly substantial.

 

what’s the return?

I don't know if the OFSC pays the OPP for enforcement. 

 

We have a couple of volunteers that are retired officers. They say the problem is the OPP is short staffed due to many factors, ie maternity/paternity leave, leave of absences, court, etc..  that most times, they can't afford to pull 2 officers out of vehicles to hop on sleds to ride around all day doing enforcement. 

[Yukon]

36 minutes ago, yamadan700 said:

 

I don't know if the OFSC pays the OPP for enforcement. 

 

We have a couple of volunteers that are retired officers. They say the problem is the OPP is short staffed due to many factors, ie maternity/paternity leave, leave of absences, court, etc..  that most times, they can't afford to pull 2 officers out of vehicles to hop on sleds to ride around all day doing enforcement. 

Its regulated through the mto permit agreement with ofsc. Permit is a mto document.

 

Atv clubs are not regulated, so they have paid patrols.

[stoney]

27 minutes ago, Yukon said:

Its regulated through the mto permit agreement with ofsc. Permit is a mto document.

 

Atv clubs are not regulated, so they have paid patrols.

Sounds to me like some leverage that needs to be exercised through the MTO/OFSC agreement.

Permit must increase to cover the cost of paid off duty officers to patrol the trails and lay charges accordingly in order to sustain a properly run and enforced trail system for the safety of all that partake in the activity.

[PISTON LAKE CRUISER]

5 hours ago, yamadan700 said:

they can't afford to pull 2 officers out of vehicles to hop on sleds to ride around all day doing enforcement. 

Then they should empower the clubs to do it.

[Spiderman]

1 minute ago, PISTON LAKE CRUISER said:

Then they should empower the clubs to do it.

 

100% - on the no pass/trespass - no brainer there

[scottyr]

12 hours ago, PISTON LAKE CRUISER said:

I'm not disagreeing with what you are saying but enforcement is the only way to stop freeloaders on the trails. 2 counties in District 9 last year apparently had no OPP officers "trained" for snowmobile patrol so the sleds there stayed parked and the only enforcement done was roadside. It won't get better if something doesn't change.

 

Yup.    According to my kids friend who is a local OPP, there is not 1 officer in Huron or Perth County trained to operate the snowmobile patrol.    

[95rxl650]

I ride district 9 and havent seen active enforcement in years. Not saying it isnt happening, I've just never seen it. 

Why not train auxiliary police and trail wardens to assist a single patrol officer on the trails? Sounds like a good retirement gig for enthusiasts. lol

I think I might enjoy seeing trailcan/trespassers get some justice. I wonder if a deputized warden can deploy tazers, mace or use a billy bat? 

[Strong Farmer]

7 hours ago, scottyr said:

 

Yup.    According to my kids friend who is a local OPP, there is not 1 officer in Huron or Perth County trained to operate the snowmobile patrol.    

I haven't seen anyone in Wilmot, Huron, Perth or wool which in close to 10 years. I guess with most club houses gone they don't see need the same way . Use to be easy pickings around corner from st Clement's club house, on a weekend.  Only active patrols are in duffern county ie shelburne, that I see online. 

[mach Z]

19 hours ago, PISTON LAKE CRUISER said:

Then they should empower the clubs to do it.

no the liability is too high. who would do that job

 

 

[Dave K]

13 hours ago, scottyr said:

 

Yup.    According to my kids friend who is a local OPP, there is not 1 officer in Huron or Perth County trained to operate the snowmobile patrol.    

Lost some local trail here this year due to trespass.  Landowner called me last Mar,  sleds stuck back of field in a water hole ( closed trails after an awesome season)  a jeep halfway down the trail.  Asked what to do.  I said call OPP ( I was on my way skiing at Blue) He called, said he wanted them charged with trespassing.  OPP showed up a few minutes later, had a chat, and then asked what the landowner wanted to do.  He had settled down a bit, and decided not to lay charges.  But the OPP officers had no idea.

 

However, now we have to do a reroute on B111, on a year where we cant add any more km of trail, and have to reduce the amount we have.   2 bridges on this property that we cross, so its not like we can sneak over to the next farm and use it.

 

I did see some sleds out and about in Monkton last winter though that were OPP, so at least there is some patrol.  First time I have ever seen it though

[crispy]

On 11/3/2025 at 8:27 PM, Strong Farmer said:

Permit is cheapest part of sport. It's also an opportunity for some riders to be cheap and not buy one. How do we change that? 

 

 Ever hear the saying "theres no free lunch?" Its basically the same thing here. You never sell the steak you sell the sizzle. The sizzle is whats lacking overall imo. Theres no door draw to the snowmobile show and the club needs more money and support, lots of clowns dont buy passes. Most dont ride trails anymore either they just buzz around the lake. Its kind of sad vs the 50 dollar permit days when everyone bought passes and 3x more people that even rode bought passes because 50 bucks and crap selds never run anyways. As for the show draws Sure theres the RedBull "stoked, bruh, dope" crowd doing what they do but for the average sledder whos 40+ that doesnt sell sizzle. Free lunch does. Thats all Im trying to say here Im not trying to give away anything just suggest some marketing sizzle somehow with attractive permit pricing cant hurt.

 

 Look at it like going to a Stag party. Everyone who actually goes buys alot more tickets for draws then the ones who dont. Gotta pump those numbers up type thing and get more money onto the trails.

 

[PISTON LAKE CRUISER]

38 minutes ago, mach Z said:

no the liability is too high. who would do that job

 

 

I would be willing and I'm pretty certain that there would be quite a few club members willing to . It's real easy to say no too much liability but somebody has to do something about enforcement or the number of unpermitted sleds is just going to continue to increase. What is your idea for a workeable alternative mack Z? 

[mach Z]

1 hour ago, PISTON LAKE CRUISER said:

I would be willing and I'm pretty certain that there would be quite a few club members willing to . It's real easy to say no too much liability but somebody has to do something about enforcement or the number of unpermitted sleds is just going to continue to increase. What is your idea for a workeable alternative mack Z? 

You would be foolish to do so and so would your club to take that on. If you got in an altercation with someone and something happened not only, would you be liable as the person with authority but so would the club.

 

I don't disagree we would need more enforcement but ill say it again.  Relying on club volunteers (while the intentions are fantastic) will not and has not made our system better.  To add enforcement into that is a whole new ball of wax that would lay you and or the club open to legal battles that are not winnable 

 

[scottyr]

Quote

I did see some sleds out and about in Monkton last winter though that were OPP, so at least there is some patrol.  First time I have ever seen it though

 

 

Maybe it was the SAVE Team?     I did see 2 OPP sleds last winter once near the BW Shack.     Probably the same guys on the same day.   

[Spiderman]

I have seen the sleds on the trailer at our detachment, but not out and about.  Only ones I have come across on the trail in recent years have been out of Burks Falls. super nice guys. Only asked if I had been drinking and for my licence and insurance. My permit is not on my windshield, but I'm sure they saw they saw it as they never asked about it. 

[Nutter]

Just to put things into perspective Current population of Ontario is 16 million people living within a 415,000 sq mi slice of land. The OPP has just over 5800 officers and 600 auxiliary officers. It's not hard to see why snowmobile permit enforcement priority is pretty low on the OPP's policing totem pole. In total there's 25,000 police officers when including municipal police forces, I would imagine only a handful of them are in sledding areas and equipped for snowmobile enforcement, and like the OPP they also have more pressing things to addend to. 

 

My 2 cents ..... 

 

As for volunteer Trail Patrol and rebirthing STOP enforcement, people are cut from a very different cloth then they were 25-30 years ago. No volunteer should ever have to be in the chance of being in harms way enforcing sled permits. 

 

2 or 3 Seasons ago there was 6 of us doing a hi hello wave stop on the rail trail between Fenelon and Kinmount at a wide spot with a road crossing on a super busy Sunday, 4 decent sized gents and 2 women. A group of 4 came through, the first 2 slowed enough to tell us to F Off, the other 2 veered at us while roosting us. That could gotten real ugly. Despite being decently late model big iron machines, not one of them was displaying a permit that we could see from either side of the trail. I have other stories of coming across tough guy chest pumpers out on the trail, but no need to get into those, we all know they now exist in greater numbers now and have little to no fear of repercussions. 

 

IMO the trespass to property act has to be re-written within the Motor Snow Vehicle Act, it needs the fail to display permit charge attached to it with more meat to it then the broad stroke provincial trespass offence.  Increase the fine substantially and attach a mandatory 90 day impoundment of the machine being ridden.  Even with low enforcement, the chance of losing your ride for 90 days and paying $1500+ for the towing and impoundment, along with the fine, then the cost of getting home and picking up your sled after 90 days would likely change attitudes towards buying a permit and sticking it on the sled. 

 

 

When the OFSC leadership in the mid to late 00's referred to the permit and trails as a product and treated it so, a lot of us saw the changes in rider mentality happen quickly. 

[Spiderman]

I agree with some re-writing of legislation Nutter.

There is no teeth and no fear of anything anymore.

I was in a meeting yesterday with some counsel over e-bikes, e-scooters etc. - there are big gaps in legislation with them - "changes" have been before legislature since early 2020 and have not moved - with zero indication anything will be done anytime soon. The gaps continue to exist, the problems continue, and that's how it will be in Ontario.