Sled prices falling large ?

[Spiderman]

13 minutes ago, 04nightfire said:

I've heard two rumors.  John Deere Or Yamaha stepping back in

 

Wishful thinking.

Nobody is stepping back in

[scottyr]

Absolutely no chance Yamaha gets back in.     Once they make a decision, they stick to it.  

 

I still can see Argo making a run at it seeing as 90% of their Exec team are ex-Arctic Cat employees.   They tried to buy it last time it was for sale.  

 

CF Moto needs a US production facility to gain more credibility in NA and also to get around any upcoming Trump tariffs.  

 

Coincidence or not, CF Moto just hired former Arctic Cat Exec, Craig Kennedy as VP of R&D.    

[Spiderman]

15 hours ago, scottyr said:

This wont help resale of Cats.  

 

 

 

Large Cat dealer posted this letter/news on their FB page.

There are over 600 comments on it and I would say more than 90% of them are people flat out saying the cost of the new units is what is driving them out of the sport.

 

One could argue it's weather, but they go hand in hand.

Weather we can't control ( well - Libs think we can ), but anyway, what we can control is how we spend our money.

20+ for a new snowmobile is where the narrative got lost

 

 

[stoney]

31 minutes ago, Spiderman said:

 

Large Cat dealer posted this letter/news on their FB page.

There are over 600 comments on it and I would say more than 90% of them are people flat out saying the cost of the new units is what is driving them out of the sport.

 

One could argue it's weather, but they go hand in hand.

Weather we can't control ( well - Libs think we can ), but anyway, what we can control is how we spend our money.

20+ for a new snowmobile is where the narrative got lost

 

 

 

I get the cost is high, but is it inline with what the units cost to make, with all considerations factored in.

On a budget, buy a 600, but still not cheap either.

 

The market is shrinking, which means the volume is not there to lower costs, so they actually will increase....

[Spiderman]

54 minutes ago, stoney said:

 

I get the cost is high, but is it inline with what the units cost to make, with all considerations factored in.

On a budget, buy a 600, but still not cheap either.

 

The market is shrinking, which means the volume is not there to lower costs, so they actually will increase....

 

Yes, but what ends up happening is like in everything else, the never ending need to have more, more, more. 

It all costs - and in the end, everybody ends up right where this did - dead in the water.

 

There has to be a desire to stop trying to re-invent the wheel. A sled is not, and should not, be a car. The industry lost what made it in the first place. Something fun to ride.

 

Personal watercrafts went through this. 

Everything got bigger, faster, bigger, more crap on it that you don't need to have fun

They became boats - not personal watercrafts.

 

Enter - Spark!

Back to basics - back to what it was all about in the first place

 

Sledding needs to scale back - get back to basics

 

I don't care what fancy gauges, gps, tech garbage nobody really needs is on a sled. It needs to ride reasonably well and go fast!

 

I can tell you right now I can have the exact same amount of fun and comfort on my sons carbed 550 then you can on your whatever 

 

If someone wants to be successful in this business as it is today - bring in basic, low cost units that you can just ride.

you'll do fine

 

[wrightonalan]

My bil is picking up his new 858 today.Not great timing.Wonder how this will effect resale

[scottyr]

39 minutes ago, wrightonalan said:

My bil is picking up his new 858 today.Not great timing.Wonder how this will effect resale

 

If I had a new 858 waiting to be picked up today I would be walking from the deal.  

 

At some point, there will be some HUGE rebates on these to clear them out.   

[stoney]

Not right, but should have waited for all sleds to be delivered to send the news. 

[95rxl650]

3 hours ago, Spiderman said:

 

 

 

Sledding needs to scale back - get back to basics

 

I don't care what fancy gauges, gps, tech garbage nobody really needs is on a sled. It needs to ride reasonably well and go fast!

 

If someone wants to be successful in this business as it is today - bring in basic, low cost units that you can just ride.

you'll do fine

 

I dont even know whats in my menu. I'd be happy if they just came with an hour meter. The only thing I appreciate about modern sleds is the rear suspension and reverse or I'd still ride a 90's 121" sleds. Nothing more fun in the tight bush trails than just sliding the ass end around the corners with complete confidence. Loved my ol' SRX. The smell of the 2smoke, bad ass sound and fast.

Unfortunately, emission requirements and speed didnt go hand in hand without all the new tech. Tech cost money.

 

[scottyr]

4 hours ago, UsedtoSkidoo said:

Hmmmm.  Never buying a cat but if that were to happen Id never even consider it,

Yup. Walk away

I guarantee there will be $5000-7000 minimum rebates on 25s by March if they say they are officially not building 26s.   

[04nightfire]

12 minutes ago, scottyr said:

I guarantee there will be $5000-7000 minimum rebates on 25s by March if they say they are officially not building 26s.   

Cat dealer across the highway from me still has unsold 23's.  

[scottyr]

25 minutes ago, 04nightfire said:

Cat dealer across the highway from me still has unsold 23's.  

 

I truly believe that someone will buy Cat but they will not take the inventory from Textron and they will be forced to rebate it so deeply to make it go away.  

 

I was a Husqvarna Motorcycle dealer when BMW owned it.    After BMW sold Husq to KTM, they were selling the "old" Italian built Huskys to dealers for 50% off dealer cost just to get them off their books.   Textron will be no different. 

 

[tricky]

7 hours ago, stoney said:

 

The market is shrinking, which means the volume is not there to lower costs, so they actually will increase....

If, and it seems very likely, there are only 2 serious sled manufacturers in 2025, retail prices will stay high or increase, even if sleds are slightly de-contented. Ski Doo and Polaris both offer basic sleds at lower price, but they don't sell many of them. It must be a really tough business. There are very few of us, and we all want something different. I don't need a fancy gauge/GPS as long as good paper maps are made available, but I see them disappearing soon. I don't need 150 + HP. I don't need the latest and greatest shocks or power steering, but there are damned few sledders who share the same wish list as I have, so manufacturers currently don't even produce a sled for me. In trying to make a high end sled for each of you mo fos, they have priced themselves into a hard place.

In the short term, bargain hunters are going to have a ball shopping the clearance sales, but the future looks bleak. 

[signfan]

What I don't get is why announce an indefinite production halt if your plan is to sell.  I get putting assembly on hold and scaling back costs.  But what advantage to a potential buyer does paying severance out and permanently severing ties with employees provide?  

[stoney]

1 hour ago, tricky said:

If, and it seems very likely, there are only 2 serious sled manufacturers in 2025, retail prices will stay high or increase, even if sleds are slightly de-contented. Ski Doo and Polaris both offer basic sleds at lower price, but they don't sell many of them. It must be a really tough business. There are very few of us, and we all want something different. I don't need a fancy gauge/GPS as long as good paper maps are made available, but I see them disappearing soon. I don't need 150 + HP. I don't need the latest and greatest shocks or power steering, but there are damned few sledders who share the same wish list as I have, so manufacturers currently don't even produce a sled for me. In trying to make a high end sled for each of you mo fos, they have priced themselves into a hard place.

In the short term, bargain hunters are going to have a ball shopping the clearance sales, but the future looks bleak. 

 

We are our own worst enemy, without a doubt.

Me, I like the extra power, do not need the fancy gauge either, and I have learned I am better off buying aftermarket shocks to my liking!

[snowowl]

3 minutes ago, signfan said:

What I don't get is why announce an indefinite production halt if your plan is to sell.  I get putting assembly on hold and scaling back costs.  But what advantage to a potential buyer does paying severance out and permanently severing ties with employees provide?  

I have no idea what is going on Cat,  but one scenario where that course of action would make sense is if the new buyer wants to hire  employees under new terms and with no accrued service.  The new buyer may  not want to accept pension liabilities  etc. and so they demand that the seller sever the employees to eliminate those costs.   By having the seller sever all the employees the buyer can then cherry pick hires based on their own criteria and offer them different terms of work (wages benefits etc.).  

[snowowl]

1 hour ago, snowowl said:

I have no idea what is going on Cat,  but one scenario where that course of action would make sense is if the new buyer wants to hire  employees under new terms and with no accrued service.  The new buyer may  not want to accept pension liabilities  etc. and so they demand that the seller sever the employees to eliminate those costs.   By having the seller sever all the employees the buyer can then cherry pick hires based on their own criteria and offer them different terms of work (wages benefits etc.).  

Sorry, should have thought of this, more obvious. scenario:  The buyer has there own manufacturing facilities.

[Strong Farmer]

9 hours ago, signfan said:

What I don't get is why announce an indefinite production halt if your plan is to sell.  I get putting assembly on hold and scaling back costs.  But what advantage to a potential buyer does paying severance out and permanently severing ties with employees provide?  

If anyone buys it, it will be Polaris I believe. They probabily  use current faculty as a ware house to distribute product. They take what they can from cat and apply it to thier own machines to increase sales I figure. I am guessing they have capacity in thier own factories so it, be easy to swallow it up and move it. After layoff is complete they offer any remaining employeees a job in their current facility I bet.  Many won't move to take it anyways. That way if it's declined they don't have any other obligation really. 

 

[Sksman]

7 hours ago, snowowl said:

Sorry, should have thought of this, more obvious. scenario:  The buyer has there own manufacturing facilities.

Or the demand for Arctic Cat products has dropped.  Scaling back work force and production to the lower levels of demand to allow for profitable production.

 

simple economic policies of supply and demand?  Over build and flood market causes your leftovers situation and prices / profits drop.   So you have to adjust production.  Slow or stop production until the demand returns or you need to start building units for 2026.

 

I would bet all manufacturers of toys be it sleds, atv, boats, campers, guns, high end bbqs, are all looking at same fate.

 

pandemic demand had everyone adding production and building extra units.  Didn’t Polaris add an extra line to sleds and move atv production?   And now have scaled back production?

 

 

[Sksman]

16 minutes ago, Strong Farmer said:

If anyone buys it, it will be Polaris I believe. They probabily  use current faculty as a ware house to distribute product. They take what they can from cat and apply it to thier own machines to increase sales I figure. I am guessing they have capacity in thier own factories so it, be easy to swallow it up and move it. After layoff is complete they offer any remaining employeees a job in their current facility I bet.  Many won't move to take it anyways. That way if it's declined they don't have any other obligation really. 

 

Polaris is in a similar situation.  There dealers are sitting on huge inventories.  Polaris production levels will or are being adjusted also.

Why buy excess capacity that if AC goes under you can pick up pieces for Pennie’s on the dollar?

 

[Sksman]

This was posted on a Arctic Cat chat group and sent to me by a friend 

 

 

Every brand is hurting right now, in all areas of power recreation.  Everyone has an answer as to why. Here's my take on part of it.  Back in my prime of the late 80s early 90s, I was working a job plus delivering pizza. Didn't save for a house( thanks mom and dad) , but put all my money towards year round fun. I had good dirt bikes, decent truck, sleds, trikes. Accounting for inflation from now to then, we're not that far off. I wasn't alone. I had two main groups of friends, one at the cabin in lac du bonnet, the other in the city. Thinking now doing the math,  there were approximately 50 machines, all had a truck. That's just my little world. Dealers were selling year round like hot cakes, the weekly auto trader, buy and sell was a hot commodity to find toys.

What's different in 2024?  My answer is males.  How many 14 year old boys pedal their bikes to the dealers on Saturday to just over a new dirtbike? How many 16 year old guys are driving pizza or pumping gas? You look around, it's all 30 year old guys from abroad doing all the traditional young guy jobs now. How many 20 year old males are confused about what sex they are, or walking around In a dress, or diagnosed with some form of autism, adhd? What the ever loving eff happened to males? It's not such a big issue in the country,  where a boy is raised to be a man. But in the city, it seems too many 16 year olds are living on a computer in a fake world, rather than saving up for a 5 year old indy 600 like I was.  Outdoor hockey rinks are pretty quiet all winter, in the 80's there'd be 40 of us playing pickup hockey. Complete with fights and eff yous. Then we'd be friends again after.

  Sales and internet is down in power sports,  mostly because there's not enough testosterone in males to want to play outside, to take a chick for a ride on their quad to a bush party. Males today say crap like skibidi toilet to each other.

I will ride some form of toy until I'm forced to go to deer lodge and get fed mush and have my ass wiped. I hope I can still have a lifetime of good memories.  If you're like me, get your boys on a toy, before they start looking at dresses and makeup.

[stoney]

45 minutes ago, Sksman said:

Or the demand for Arctic Cat products has dropped.  Scaling back work force and production to the lower levels of demand to allow for profitable production.

 

simple economic policies of supply and demand?  Over build and flood market causes your leftovers situation and prices / profits drop.   So you have to adjust production.  Slow or stop production until the demand returns or you need to start building units for 2026.

 

I would bet all manufacturers of toys be it sleds, atv, boats, campers, guns, high end bbqs, are all looking at same fate.

 

pandemic demand had everyone adding production and building extra units.  Didn’t Polaris add an extra line to sleds and move atv production?   And now have scaled back production?

 

 

Cat adjusted their approach a few years ago and only made what was ordered, I’m sure some extra’s too. 
Someone can correct me if I’m wrong, but I’m pretty sure that’s the model they changed too not so long ago so not to overload dealers with inventory, limit incentives offered on non currents, etc….

You still see it of course, just not as bad as before I assume….

[Strong Farmer]

2 minutes ago, stoney said:

Cat adjusted their approach a few years ago and only made what was ordered, I’m sure some extra’s too. 
Someone can correct me if I’m wrong, but I’m pretty sure that’s the model they changed too not so long ago so not to overload dealers with inventory, limit incentives offered on non currents, etc….

You still see it of course, just not as bad as before I assume….

 Cancelled orders that sit on floors too. More of that un certainty going on too. 

[stoney]

43 minutes ago, UsedtoSkidoo said:

when a decent used sled is 8k what teen or early 20 has the cash to waste on a two month toy.

 

 

I think this seems about right to compare with.....but there is a much bigger gap today in what a new sled can cost.

• new sled 10/15 years ago = $10/12K
• used sled 10/15 years ago = 2/4K
• delta = 8k

 

• New sled now = 20k (this can be much higher)
• used sled now = 8K
• delta = 12K

And we all know, the sled is just part A of many things, now you need to get the sled to the trail system that you can ride (truck, trailer, gas, etc....), whereas we used to  be able to bank on every year being able to ride from Simcoe to various cottage location in Muskoka for a weekend of fun.

[Spiderman]

22 minutes ago, stoney said:

I think this seems about right to compare with.....but there is a much bigger gap today in what a new sled can cost.

• new sled 10/15 years ago = $10/12K
• used sled 10/15 years ago = 2/4K
• delta = 8k

 

• New sled now = 20k (this can be much higher)
• used sled now = 8K
• delta = 12K

And we all know, the sled is just part A of many things, now you need to get the sled to the trail system that you can ride (truck, trailer, gas, etc....), whereas we used to  be able to bank on every year being able to ride from Simcoe to various cottage location in Muskoka for a weekend of fun.

I had to get my son a new suit and gloves 2 weeks ago before went out.

 

pants, jacket and gloves =1,175.12 

 

no helmet, no boots, no balaclava, no sled, no pass, no gas, oil etc.

 

I also bought a 4l jug of oil.$92.30

 

sledding is expensive, and way too expensive to start up as a new rider.