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AGM ideas


signfan

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Just some ideas for anyone on here to consider taking forward to next year's agm.  I won't be there, but like to put some ideas out there for the volunteers to consider.  Anyone else have any other ideas?

 

 

1st idea

 

Hourly grooming dollar amount paid to the districts be adjusted to promote best grooming practices based on the following.

 

Grooming hours that take place between 10 am and 3 pm to be paid out at 80% of the prescribed hourly grooming rate.  An exception of 10% of the grooming units total season hours to still be paid at 100% of the prescribed hourly grooming rate to accomodate for trail opening and emergency situations where daytime grooming is necessary.

 

Grooming hours that occur on Friday and Saturday nights / Saturday and Sunday mornings between 4pm and 7 am to be paid out at 120% of the prescribed hourly grooming rate.

 

Ofsc bog to set / adjust the prescribed hourly grooming rate as needed to ensure overall budget compliance.

 

2nd idea

 

Ofsc annual trail permit early bird price to be increased to $250 with the other seasonal permit prices being adjusted accordingly.  Ofsc bog to investigate and if deemed feasible implement a southern trail permit to be created that is only valid in the geographical areas of ofsc districts 1, 3, 4, 5 and 9.  Price of the southern trail permit to match the annual trail permit price from the 2022/2023 season.  Funds from permit revenue to continue to be distributed in a similar manner to how they currently are with the southern permit existence not effecting the permit funding distribution model.  

 

3rd idea

 

Ofsc bog to investigate providing research funding to a Canadian university with the goal of developing one of the two below technologies.  Value of funds being dedicated to this to be set by the bog.

 

1. Develop cost effective environmentally friendly technology to improve snows resistance (ability to not melt) to warm weather events

 

2. Develop technology to drastically reduce costs and make portable current or new snow making techniques that can be operated in an environmentally friendly manner.

 

The end goal of this research funding is to increase the duration of the riding season available to ofsc permit holders each winter.  

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Some interesting "out of the box" ideas for sure. I agree that the sport needs new ideas to continue to be viable.

My thoughts are simplistic in comparison, I would like to see some functionality on the OFSC Trail map:

1. FCMQ has has a layer which shows when last groomed, why can't the OFSC map do the same; (Heck, New Brunswick shows the groomer in real time.)

2. I would like a third color (purple?) which identifies road running, and or bridges when the trail is open but be advised  lack of snow. I see some clubs flip to Yellow for lack of snow, but no snow for a few KM's is a whole other matter for sleds. Example, the section in red is a long bridge, which is a road way, I expect that the club has identified that there is no snow on the bridge, not that the province told the OFSC that snowmobiles can't use the bridge. Flip that section to Purple - no snow road way.

As we all know, no snow on roadways or shoulders is very different than in the dead of winter when the ground is at least frozen. Also, I'm not talking about simple road crossing, I'm flagging when we have to drive along a road for hundreds of meters, and it is dirt, or rocks, or bare pavement.

My 2 cents.

Capture.JPG

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4 hours ago, Gadgetman said:

Some interesting "out of the box" ideas for sure. I agree that the sport needs new ideas to continue to be viable.

My thoughts are simplistic in comparison, I would like to see some functionality on the OFSC Trail map:

1. FCMQ has has a layer which shows when last groomed, why can't the OFSC map do the same; (Heck, New Brunswick shows the groomer in real time.)

2. I would like a third color (purple?) which identifies road running, and or bridges when the trail is open but be advised  lack of snow. I see some clubs flip to Yellow for lack of snow, but no snow for a few KM's is a whole other matter for sleds. Example, the section in red is a long bridge, which is a road way, I expect that the club has identified that there is no snow on the bridge, not that the province told the OFSC that snowmobiles can't use the bridge. Flip that section to Purple - no snow road way.

As we all know, no snow on roadways or shoulders is very different than in the dead of winter when the ground is at least frozen. Also, I'm not talking about simple road crossing, I'm flagging when we have to drive along a road for hundreds of meters, and it is dirt, or rocks, or bare pavement.

My 2 cents.

Capture.JPG

I think everyone would want this.  Unfortunately seems the lawyers think otherwise.  

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8 hours ago, signfan said:

Just some ideas for anyone on here to consider taking forward to next year's agm.  I won't be there, but like to put some ideas out there for the volunteers to consider.  Anyone else have any other ideas?

 

 

1st idea

 

Hourly grooming dollar amount paid to the districts be adjusted to promote best grooming practices based on the following.

 

Grooming hours that take place between 10 am and 3 pm to be paid out at 80% of the prescribed hourly grooming rate.  An exception of 10% of the grooming units total season hours to still be paid at 100% of the prescribed hourly grooming rate to accomodate for trail opening and emergency situations where daytime grooming is necessary.

 

Grooming hours that occur on Friday and Saturday nights / Saturday and Sunday mornings between 4pm and 7 am to be paid out at 120% of the prescribed hourly grooming rate.

 

Ofsc bog to set / adjust the prescribed hourly grooming rate as needed to ensure overall budget compliance.

 

2nd idea

 

Ofsc annual trail permit early bird price to be increased to $250 with the other seasonal permit prices being adjusted accordingly.  Ofsc bog to investigate and if deemed feasible implement a southern trail permit to be created that is only valid in the geographical areas of ofsc districts 1, 3, 4, 5 and 9.  Price of the southern trail permit to match the annual trail permit price from the 2022/2023 season.  Funds from permit revenue to continue to be distributed in a similar manner to how they currently are with the southern permit existence not effecting the permit funding distribution model.  

 

3rd idea

 

Ofsc bog to investigate providing research funding to a Canadian university with the goal of developing one of the two below technologies.  Value of funds being dedicated to this to be set by the bog.

 

1. Develop cost effective environmentally friendly technology to improve snows resistance (ability to not melt) to warm weather events

 

2. Develop technology to drastically reduce costs and make portable current or new snow making techniques that can be operated in an environmentally friendly manner.

 

The end goal of this research funding is to increase the duration of the riding season available to ofsc permit holders each winter.  


Some of those ideas crossed my mind too.  Ice doesn’t melt as fast as snow. If there was a way  to heat groomer plate and turn trail surface into ice early in sesson base would last much longer. 
nothing you can add to it that would slow melting at moment. 


Hailburton forest stopped making snow too expensive. Better to harness what you can near trail with blade on groomer. 

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Yeah needs some good minds to look at it.  Snow from snow making holds up better than natural snow.  Mainly because it's denser.  We have the ability to drop the freezing point of water by adding salt or calcium.  What would do the opposite.  Make snow melt at plus 5?  

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I like the idea of identifying road running which is becoming more prevalent with continued loss of private land owner trails. Especially this winter many of want to avoid the road rash…… 

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Grooming data is not very helpful unless you have the traffic data for the trail as well. Posting just the grooming data will only encourage the “chase the groomer” mentality which only exacerbates the problem of concentrating traffic on specific trails. Which would you rather ride, a trail groomed 7 days ago or a trail groomed yesterday. With out traffic data the rider would tend to select the trail groomed yesterday thinking it will be a better ride. But if you knew the trail groomed yesterday sees hundreds of sleds per day where the trail groomed a week ago see little traffic. Which one do you think is in better shape?  
 

the idea of a regional permit is not new. The very first iteration of MOTS had a regional permit proposal. The province would have been divided into 5 regions (vs 16 Districts) each having its own permit pricing structure. There would still have been a province wide permit but at substantially higher price. The catch was that permit revenues for regional permits stayed in the region. The concept died a very quick death as it eliminates one region subsidizing another. There were also issues surrounding the combining of 16 districts into 5 regions.  It would have been interesting to see a full analysis of the proposal. 

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how about, the funding to make/deem snowmobile trails permanent, so logging/mining, private entities, cannot disrupt them during season, without that entity paying for use, and or rerouting? ESPECIALLY ON CROWN LAND. Our region suffers from this yearly. so much money and man hours wasted when someone decides... we need to use this now, immediately... yeah, we know we told you we didnt need to this year but... I cant imagine just in our area, how much money has been wasted/lost in the last 20 years, to this. Ski

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48 minutes ago, signfan said:

Yeah needs some good minds to look at it.  Snow from snow making holds up better than natural snow.  Mainly because it's denser.  We have the ability to drop the freezing point of water by adding salt or calcium.  What would do the opposite.  Make snow melt at plus 5?  

No way we can make snow for a trail

network Hailburton forest couldn’t even do it and quit. 

I like idea of increasing snows density so it melts slower. We could add water to it. Lots of near by lakes in cottage country to fill a tank on a groomer with some high pressure spray nozzles to increase denesity of snow. As it was being groomed. Water would have to be heated too. That idea could work though in some areas no doubt.  

 

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8 minutes ago, Big Pete said:

Grooming data is not very helpful unless you have the traffic data for the trail as well. Posting just the grooming data will only encourage the “chase the groomer” mentality which only exacerbates the problem of concentrating traffic on specific trails. Which would you rather ride, a trail groomed 7 days ago or a trail groomed yesterday. With out traffic data the rider would tend to select the trail groomed yesterday thinking it will be a better ride. But if you knew the trail groomed yesterday sees hundreds of sleds per day where the trail groomed a week ago see little traffic. Which one do you think is in better shape?  
 

 

 

That is one opinion. to most riders, "it is better to know, if it has been groomed recently or not".

 

In reality, any trail not groomed in 7 days, should be listed as yellow for "precaution", until an operators eyes, has saw it. Ski

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I want all the info I can get.  I do agree with big Pete a trail with no traffic groomed a week ago is often as good or better than a fresh groom from the day before.  I still want all the info I can get my hands on.  Let the rider decide from there where they want to go.  

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2 hours ago, skidooboy said:

how about, the funding to make/deem snowmobile trails permanent, so logging/mining, private entities, cannot disrupt them during season, without that entity paying for use, and or rerouting? ESPECIALLY ON CROWN LAND. Our region suffers from this yearly. so much money and man hours wasted when someone decides... we need to use this now, immediately... yeah, we know we told you we didnt need to this year but... I cant imagine just in our area, how much money has been wasted/lost in the last 20 years, to this. Ski

Agree 100%. Personally I think that secure land access is the single  biggest risk to the sustainability of our sport. Without land access nothing else matters. 
 

Funding is part of the solution and it may not be as expensive as one could think given, as you said, when you could be offsetting the costs with reduced costs of continuous reroutes.  Legislatively there needs to be work done to reduce or severely limit liability/ exposure  to landowners and trail

operators when user have “willing assumed” the risks. 

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12 minutes ago, Big Pete said:

Agree 100%. Personally I think that secure land access is the single  biggest risk to the sustainability of our sport. Without land access nothing else matters. 
 

Funding is part of the solution and it may not be as expensive as one could think given, as you said, when you could be offsetting the costs with reduced costs of continuous reroutes.  Legislatively there needs to be work done to reduce or severely limit liability/ exposure  to landowners and trail

operators when user have “willing assumed” the risks. 

 

they have went to this model for michigan's sled trails. but, they also get a small portion of the fuel tax for funding on top of trail permits. and for the most part the off raod motorcycle/orv/sled, communities are joined and each have their own seasonal permits, that fund updates for all seasons, and all users. Ski

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It seems to me that since changes have been made the last 5 to 10 years you do not hear as much about short fall of money….or I’m just oblivious or perhaps not as hot a topic as it once was. 
Money is not sitting with clubs that only see a couple weeks of activity, it’s being distributed to where needed more effectively. 

So does the 200 cover the needs vs the wants based on current permit sales?!?!?

Does charging more to address some of those wants or short falls a good thing, sure, but I imagine a not for profit organization shouldn’t have a boat load of cash just sitting there either for a few reasons. 

 

Charge more if needed, bare minimum should be an incremental increase each year that falls under the radar for most, especially those buying 20+K sleds….lol

 

I really like the idea of paying different percentage for grooming hours based on when done that makes the most sense based on activity…..as long as it doesn’t cause a club to not groom now based on availability of resources. 

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I think it's important to not forget how good we've had it and for how long - and that is 100% only because of the volunteers.

 

In my opinion, the only thing that matters is the one we can't control - and that is the weather.

When winters are winters - and there is an abundance of cold and snow - life is good.

When they suck - we all sit and stare at the costs and armchair quarterback how it could be "better".

 

If most or all clubs operate with efforts similar to those of our skeleton crew local club - then I don't know what else anyone could do and/or expect.

 

No easy answer to any of it. 

 

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1 hour ago, Spiderman said:

I think it's important to not forget how good we've had it and for how long - and that is 100% only because of the volunteers.

 

In my opinion, the only thing that matters is the one we can't control - and that is the weather.

When winters are winters - and there is an abundance of cold and snow - life is good.

When they suck - we all sit and stare at the costs and armchair quarterback how it could be "better".

 

If most or all clubs operate with efforts similar to those of our skeleton crew local club - then I don't know what else anyone could do and/or expect.

 

No easy answer to any of it. 

 

Well put.  I believe the OFSC has been a leader in the past few years in managing resources to drive efficiencies.  The funding model is leveling the playing field across all areas.  Where it's arguably falling behind is keeping up with inflation.  IMO a big opportunity for permit increases was lost over the last couple years.  We have baby boomers retiring driving growth for the sport.  That combined with covid was the perfect opportunity to raise more funds.  Quebec did it.  I know it can be argued they offer more value (longer more reliable season), but an opportunity was there still.  OFSC did a lot of homework on this issue in the past and found there was a price point where ridership / permit sales and overall revenue dropped off if prices were too high.  Why is that though?  Has everything to do with value.  If you never leave district 5 then I can see the value argument holding weight.  In a very good year they get 8 weeks.  Most years it's more like 4.  Head to cottage country and north and it's a different story much similar to Quebec where 6 plus weeks is the norm (many areas get much longer seasons than this).  For the cottages and folks trailering north the permit price is not a big factor in their overall budget.  This is my thought on the southern permit.  Offer the guy that never leaves the south a permit that reflects the value he gets (not in trail quality, but in season length) so you dont loose that revenue.  Make everyone else pay what it's worth.

 

With the funding model and things being leveled grooming costs and equipment procurement are being covered.  Albeit these costs have / are rising which dictates the need for an increase.  What also occurred though is reductions in club budgets for trail work.  Some districts run full volunteer grooming crews which allows them to build trail work budgets (they get the same $ per hour groomed,  but don't pay out the labour costs).  Those that pay their groomer operators have very limited trail budgets other than attaining grants.  This is an area that could definitely use more funding from a permit price increase.  The additional money would result in better trails.  I also think we're seeing a few cracks in the system this winter.  A club near french river that can't get a working groomer, issues in Hornepayne, etc.  I'm sure there's a story behind every issue, but some additional funding couldn't hurt.  Have the fleet numbers been cut a little too thin in some areas?  

 

On the grooming front the idea of the different rates is really to drive best practices.  We see the groomers do a fantastic job at our cottages area Monday to Friday.  If I go sledding on Thursdays trails are mint.  The units shut down and don't run all weekend though.  We get hit with traffic on Saturdays and no effort goes into fixing it until Monday.  Is that serving the customer that only rides on weekends as well as it could?  There are pockets of this sort of thing occurring all over the province.  Coming through North Bay on the A trail a few weeks ago and caught a groomer at 1 pm on the A trail on a Friday on the pipeline.  The operator was arguably in his 70's.  Two thoughts came to mind.  A thank you for being out getting things groomed.  B what a waste of resources.  That trail would be rough 4 hours later.  Traffic was busy.  If the funding model changes it will drive management changes without micromanaging the club and districts management.  In an area that runs volunteer operators maybe a 20% premium convinces them to hire weekend staff with the additional funds to relieve some pressure on the volunteer grooming teams.  If the trail gets groomed Saturday night, it's much easier to maintain when Monday rolls around.  The volunteer base is aging.  Changes in management are going to be needed to keep what we have / hopefully improve it.  The goal should be to support the clubs and provide incentives for using resources to the best extent possible.

 

Just my opinion.

 

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10 minutes ago, signfan said:

Well put.  I believe the OFSC has been a leader in the past few years in managing resources to drive efficiencies.  The funding model is leveling the playing field across all areas.  Where it's arguably falling behind is keeping up with inflation.  IMO a big opportunity for permit increases was lost over the last couple years.  We have baby boomers retiring driving growth for the sport.  That combined with covid was the perfect opportunity to raise more funds.  Quebec did it.  I know it can be argued they offer more value (longer more reliable season), but an opportunity was there still.  OFSC did a lot of homework on this issue in the past and found there was a price point where ridership / permit sales and overall revenue dropped off if prices were too high.  Why is that though?  Has everything to do with value.  If you never leave district 5 then I can see the value argument holding weight.  In a very good year they get 8 weeks.  Most years it's more like 4.  Head to cottage country and north and it's a different story much similar to Quebec where 6 plus weeks is the norm (many areas get much longer seasons than this).  For the cottages and folks trailering north the permit price is not a big factor in their overall budget.  This is my thought on the southern permit.  Offer the guy that never leaves the south a permit that reflects the value he gets (not in trail quality, but in season length) so you dont loose that revenue.  Make everyone else pay what it's worth.

 

With the funding model and things being leveled grooming costs and equipment procurement are being covered.  Albeit these costs have / are rising which dictates the need for an increase.  What also occurred though is reductions in club budgets for trail work.  Some districts run full volunteer grooming crews which allows them to build trail work budgets (they get the same $ per hour groomed,  but don't pay out the labour costs).  Those that pay their groomer operators have very limited trail budgets other than attaining grants.  This is an area that could definitely use more funding from a permit price increase.  The additional money would result in better trails.  I also think we're seeing a few cracks in the system this winter.  A club near french river that can't get a working groomer, issues in Hornepayne, etc.  I'm sure there's a story behind every issue, but some additional funding couldn't hurt.  Have the fleet numbers been cut a little too thin in some areas?  

 

On the grooming front the idea of the different rates is really to drive best practices.  We see the groomers do a fantastic job at our cottages area Monday to Friday.  If I go sledding on Thursdays trails are mint.  The units shut down and don't run all weekend though.  We get hit with traffic on Saturdays and no effort goes into fixing it until Monday.  Is that serving the customer that only rides on weekends as well as it could?  There are pockets of this sort of thing occurring all over the province.  Coming through North Bay on the A trail a few weeks ago and caught a groomer at 1 pm on the A trail on a Friday on the pipeline.  The operator was arguably in his 70's.  Two thoughts came to mind.  A thank you for being out getting things groomed.  B what a waste of resources.  That trail would be rough 4 hours later.  Traffic was busy.  If the funding model changes it will drive management changes without micromanaging the club and districts management.  In an area that runs volunteer operators maybe a 20% premium convinces them to hire weekend staff with the additional funds to relieve some pressure on the volunteer grooming teams.  If the trail gets groomed Saturday night, it's much easier to maintain when Monday rolls around.  The volunteer base is aging.  Changes in management are going to be needed to keep what we have / hopefully improve it.  The goal should be to support the clubs and provide incentives for using resources to the best extent possible.

 

Just my opinion.

 

D5 got three days this year. Worst we have had in years.  I don’t like regional permits many will just buy cheaper region one and ride where they want. Who is going to stop them. 
That’s why early permit exists really. 
Offer early permit in May and June. Get funds earlier kind like snow check for trails. 
should be a day permit available though.

I like to see that change. 

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Day permits were a disaster which is why they were cancelled.  The whole permit discussion does come back to enforcement.  Until they solve that day permits don't work.  Would you have the same issue with a southern permit?  Maybe.  Provide an upgrade option mid season to encourage those venturing north to do the right thing.  At least with a southern permit, you've collected the first $210 from the guy that chooses to break the rules vs $40 or $50 for a day pass when they ride all season with it.  I think the biggest mistake OFSC could make is holding seasonal permit prices as is or only moving forward with a $5 or $10 increase.  Can't underfund things year after year and not expect a decrease in quality over time.

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I don't think regional permits will get the people who are riding with no permits to change what they do.  I also don't believe it has been much of an issue in the last few years in our local area from what our club's trail patrollers have seen at least. It may however help retain the permit buyers who are on the cusp of quitting the sport or who are considering riding without a permit purchase.

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On 3/10/2023 at 7:59 PM, skidooboy said:

how about, the funding to make/deem snowmobile trails permanent, so logging/mining, private entities, cannot disrupt them during season, without that entity paying for use, and or rerouting? ESPECIALLY ON CROWN LAND. Our region suffers from this yearly. so much money and man hours wasted when someone decides... we need to use this now, immediately... yeah, we know we told you we didnt need to this year but... I cant imagine just in our area, how much money has been wasted/lost in the last 20 years, to this. Ski

Here is a link to build Ont map of crown land, ( you have to accept terms and then wait for it to load, the colours aren't as vibrant as they should be to help see..) but even north of Sault and east of 17 between the Indian Reserves and Private Land and Parks , see how the leftover crownland is many times deep in bush . ( barely any crownland in Southern Ont) Now add in complex logging rights on crown land, constantly changing hands every few years .......you have a moving target for OFSC to try to make the trails permanent on lands they cannot ever afford to buy , and the existing insurance liabilities to "lease" like now on private. And also not set precedences for permanent use of crown land that other groups would want. ......just being devils advocate of tricky balance act OFSC must do now.       https://www.ontario.ca/page/crown-land-use-policy-atlas

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Some interesting thoughts…As I’ve said before..I’ll say it again. Make the snowmobile license the trail permit. Every licensed machine in the province has a valid trail pass. Can’t get insurance without lic/permit. More funds to go into trail maintenance and grooming. 
  Ya ya I know…people north of French river don’t buy licenses…too bad. Change it. Yes I also know not every licensed snowmobile rides on groomed trails..too bad…Same argument made for auto license.  If I don’t travel 400 series highway can I get a discount tag?. No it doesn’t work that way. 
  Enforcement? It’s been non existent last few yrs…this model would make what little enforcement their is easier. 
  Trails in the Deep South ..get rid of them. Unless our weather patterns change I see no value in mapping, staking, insuring some of these trails. Waste of time and money. I will admit I own several farms some w trails on them. Where I live just go back to what it was in the 70s..if it snows go to the bush and have a fire. Go see the neighbours…

  When I see newer groomers sitting in the south and more northern regions forced to use much older higher houred units to maintain trails that have ample snow still and will for a few weeks yet I question the logic. All those permit buyers in the south are going north to ride. The few that will be lost because they don’t have a local trail are already gone. 
  You asked for thoughts..I’ve shared mine. Not looking for an argument. 

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Considering sadly that snowmachines might be around only one or two more generations after us.....trail change talk might be moot !! ......heck we are already seeing younger generations no longer interested in the " car culture" ......forced on us electric self driving cars 20 yrs from now !! .........boy they will need to pry my gas engine cars, boats, snowmachine and Atv  , etc from my dead hands ! ! 

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