Bigdaddy63250 Posted January 13, 2022 Share Posted January 13, 2022 https://barrie.ctvnews.ca/snowmobiler-clocked-speeding-on-ofsc-trail-in-haliburton-forest-1.5738036 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sinc71 Posted January 13, 2022 Share Posted January 13, 2022 Wasn’t this in the privately owned Halliburton Forest Reserve, not on the OFSC trails that aren’t open yet? Why are the OPP policing private property now? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T bird Posted January 13, 2022 Share Posted January 13, 2022 Anytime I’ve ridden at the forest, there has always been OPP sitting right at the entrance to the trails Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strong Farmer Posted January 13, 2022 Share Posted January 13, 2022 7 minutes ago, sinc71 said: Wasn’t this in the privately owned Halliburton Forest Reserve, not on the OFSC trails that aren’t open yet? Why are the OPP policing private property now? They always have. Hailburton forest pays them to patrol the area, randomly. Same rules apply in forest as ofsc trails even though it’s private land. I bet they get a big insurance break too for having so many patrol hours too on trail liability. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PISTON LAKE CRUISER Posted January 13, 2022 Share Posted January 13, 2022 48 minutes ago, sinc71 said: Wasn’t this in the privately owned Halliburton Forest Reserve, not on the OFSC trails that aren’t open yet? Why are the OPP policing private property now? According to a comment on the H.F. F/B page the forest is paying the police for enforcement. I certainly hope that is the case. They could have been patrolling the approx, 2000 km's of OFSC trails that were open over the weekend. The Motorized Snowmobile act (regarding speeding) the following: 14 (1) No person shall drive a motorized snow vehicle at a greater rate of speed than, (a) 20 kilometres per hour, (i) on a highway where the speed limit established pursuant to the Highway Traffic Act is 50 kilometres per hour or less, or (ii) in any public park or exhibition grounds; or (b) 50 kilometres per hour, (i) on any highway which is open to motor vehicle traffic, where the speed limit established pursuant to the Highway Traffic Act is greater than 50 kilometres per hour, or (ii) on a trail. R.S.O. 1990, c. M.44, s. 14 (1). I Couldn't find a definition of trail in the MSVA. If there isn't a definition, that gives the police a lot of leeway to lay charges on whatever they feel is a trail. The article provided in the first post above indicates that the charge was laid on an OFSC trail in the Haliburton Forest and yet there are no OFSC trails open in that area according to the ITG. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PISTON LAKE CRUISER Posted January 13, 2022 Share Posted January 13, 2022 13 minutes ago, Strong Farmer said: They always have. Hailburton forest pays them to patrol the area, randomly. Same rules apply in forest as ofsc trails even though it’s private land. I bet they get a big insurance break too for having so many patrol hours too on trail liability. Do you know for sure that the HF is paying the police or is that something you heard? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UsedtoSkidoo Posted January 13, 2022 Share Posted January 13, 2022 ridiculous Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sksman Posted January 13, 2022 Share Posted January 13, 2022 Anyone that road in Haliburton Forest in the 90’s can probably remember the gong show that was going on. Private trails all groomed and lots of riders drinking heavily. And knowing no police on the property at the time. Speed and Alcohol led to lots of wrecks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UsedtoSkidoo Posted January 13, 2022 Share Posted January 13, 2022 50km/hr speed limit is beyond ridiculous 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manotickmike Posted January 13, 2022 Share Posted January 13, 2022 Highway traffic act does not apply in a parking lot. Private. I'm sure someone could explain how this is different. Or why this private property is patrolled, when it seems it's sadly lacking elsewhere. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sksman Posted January 13, 2022 Share Posted January 13, 2022 I read on FB many were let off of speeding with a warning. Lots of exhaust tickets. And 50km/hr is only a joke until your facing a 75km/hr sled on a tight corner. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UsedtoSkidoo Posted January 13, 2022 Share Posted January 13, 2022 14 minutes ago, manotickmike said: Highway traffic act does not apply in a parking lot. Private. I'm sure someone could explain how this is different. Or why this private property is patrolled, when it seems it's sadly lacking elsewhere. Thats not true at all. Once an area (for lack of a better word) is accessed by one or more people for the sake of accessing an area meant for two or more people the traffic act applies. If its your driveway and someone comes into it then its not considered public access. But a public parking lot becomes subject to provincial laws because its meant to be used for public access. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PISTON LAKE CRUISER Posted January 13, 2022 Share Posted January 13, 2022 Other than the 1+ km. of trail 11 that goes from Lake Kennisis to Redstone at the Base Camp, is there any other OFSC trail on Haliburton Forest property? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spiderman Posted January 13, 2022 Share Posted January 13, 2022 5 minutes ago, UsedtoSkidoo said: Thats not true at all. Once an area (for lack of a better word) is accessed by one or more people for the sake of accessing an area meant for two or more people the traffic act applies. If its your driveway and someone comes into it then its not considered public access. But a public parking lot becomes subject to provincial laws because its meant to be used for public access. HTA does not apply in private parking lots. Police will not, do not, and can not issue tickets for accidents in parking lots because there is no HTA charge to go with it. He is right on that. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UsedtoSkidoo Posted January 13, 2022 Share Posted January 13, 2022 11 minutes ago, Spiderman said: HTA does not apply in private parking lots. Police will not, do not, and can not issue tickets for accidents in parking lots because there is no HTA charge to go with it. He is right on that. All I know is what a few police have said to me on that issue. If your accessing two or more places the act applies. I cant site any precedents all I know is what they have said to me directly. The Haliburton Forest parking lot is not private when you put the trails out for hire. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PISTON LAKE CRUISER Posted January 13, 2022 Share Posted January 13, 2022 7 minutes ago, UsedtoSkidoo said: All I know is what a few police have said to me on that issue. If your accessing two or more places the act applies. I cant site any precedents all I know is what they have said to me directly. The Haliburton Forest parking lot is not private when you put the trails out for hire. Do Traffic Regulations apply on Private Property? Posted by Injury Lawyers of Ontario on August 29, 2016 The province of Ontario has a unique provision in its laws that states that a person cannot be charged with a driving infraction if that infraction occurs on private property or in a government parking lot. Only if the driver commits a crime, such as driving while impaired, can a person be charged with an offence by the police. Ontario traffic regulations apply only to public roads and highways. According to Ontario's Highway Traffic Act, public roads and highways are defined as any common and public highway, street, avenue, parkway, driveway, square, place, bridge, viaduct or trestle, any part of which is intended for or used by the general public for the passage of vehicles. Ontario's most heavily trafficked private properties are privately owned parking lots (particularly shopping mall lots), multi-level parking garages, and municipal parking lots. Motor vehicle operators are generally immune from being charged with traffic infractions such as failing to observe a stop sign or failing to give the right of way, when operating a vehicle in these areas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spiderman Posted January 13, 2022 Share Posted January 13, 2022 30 minutes ago, PISTON LAKE CRUISER said: Do Traffic Regulations apply on Private Property? Posted by Injury Lawyers of Ontario on August 29, 2016 The province of Ontario has a unique provision in its laws that states that a person cannot be charged with a driving infraction if that infraction occurs on private property or in a government parking lot. Only if the driver commits a crime, such as driving while impaired, can a person be charged with an offence by the police. Ontario traffic regulations apply only to public roads and highways. According to Ontario's Highway Traffic Act, public roads and highways are defined as any common and public highway, street, avenue, parkway, driveway, square, place, bridge, viaduct or trestle, any part of which is intended for or used by the general public for the passage of vehicles. Ontario's most heavily trafficked private properties are privately owned parking lots (particularly shopping mall lots), multi-level parking garages, and municipal parking lots. Motor vehicle operators are generally immune from being charged with traffic infractions such as failing to observe a stop sign or failing to give the right of way, when operating a vehicle in these areas. I did a search in our library on this. This case is referenced. I haven't gone any further to see if this has held up and is now the precedent at current. https://singerkwinter.com/court-of-appeal-for-ontario-states-highway-traffic-act-applies-to-private-property-8/ 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sksman Posted January 13, 2022 Share Posted January 13, 2022 2 hours ago, PISTON LAKE CRUISER said: Other than the 1+ km. of trail 11 that goes from Lake Kennisis to Redstone at the Base Camp, is there any other OFSC trail on Haliburton Forest property? Yes Haliburton Forest owns a large acreage to the East of the current Haliburton Forest trail network. East road trail from the Forest connects to OFSC trails that are on Forest property. Anyone riding the OFSC trail from Haliburton Lake / Fort Irwin area north to Whitney travel along the hydro line through a large section of private property owned by Haliburton Forest. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UsedtoSkidoo Posted January 13, 2022 Share Posted January 13, 2022 2 hours ago, Spiderman said: I did a search in our library on this. This case is referenced. I haven't gone any further to see if this has held up and is now the precedent at current. https://singerkwinter.com/court-of-appeal-for-ontario-states-highway-traffic-act-applies-to-private-property-8/ I assume as I have been told that he HTA doesnt apply when the roadway only accesses one dwelling or structure and that when two or more people are needing the road, or parking lot to access a property or two or more properties thats when the distinction disappears. Thats why if your on your own road or driveway going to the one house or business on it its considered private property. But when the access (be it road or parking lot) is for two addresses lets say then its no longer considered a private road. So that case you referenced seems to support that.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stoney Posted January 13, 2022 Share Posted January 13, 2022 The HTA also does not apply to trails, which is why the fine for speeding is a flat rate fine vs. the fine you would receive if speeding on a road. HTA rules are extremely loose in parking lots - why they say it is the worst place to have an accident. Also why police cannot enforce using phone in this environment while driving, etc.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spiderman Posted January 13, 2022 Share Posted January 13, 2022 1 minute ago, stoney said: The HTA also does not apply to trails, which is why the fine for speeding is a flat rate fine vs. the fine you would receive of speeding on a road. HTA rules are extremely loose in parking lots - why they say it is the worst place to have an accident. Also why police cannot enforce using phone in this environment while driving, etc.... Correct, HTA does not apply to sleds on trails. HTA appears to have been amended recently - I think based off the case I noted - will have to do some further digging. If a trail goes out on a road - does the MSVA still apply - or can the HTA be applied? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UsedtoSkidoo Posted January 13, 2022 Share Posted January 13, 2022 2 minutes ago, Spiderman said: Correct, HTA does not apply to sleds on trails. HTA appears to have been amended recently - I think based off the case I noted - will have to do some further digging. If a trail goes out on a road - does the MSVA still apply - or can the HTA be applied? road would be HTA for sure. Or at least the OPP would ticket it that way, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stoney Posted January 13, 2022 Share Posted January 13, 2022 10 minutes ago, Spiderman said: Correct, HTA does not apply to sleds on trails. HTA appears to have been amended recently - I think based off the case I noted - will have to do some further digging. If a trail goes out on a road - does the MSVA still apply - or can the HTA be applied? 7 minutes ago, UsedtoSkidoo said: road would be HTA for sure. Or at least the OPP would ticket it that way, I know for sure Odot1 was asked this on other forums - I do not recall the answer, but, assumption would be trail on sanctioned road falls under HTA......hence why kids with sled license are not suppose to ride sled on trail that crosses road or runs on road. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SRXChris Posted January 13, 2022 Share Posted January 13, 2022 . Is property private ? Do they patrol; the whole forest or the prescribed OFSC trail within it's limits? Seems odd to waste taxpayer money patrolling private property. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SRXChris Posted January 13, 2022 Share Posted January 13, 2022 4 hours ago, PISTON LAKE CRUISER said: Other than the 1+ km. of trail 11 that goes from Lake Kennisis to Redstone at the Base Camp, is there any other OFSC trail on Haliburton Forest property? I'm curious as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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