The Lunacy Begins

[manotickmike]

It really doesn't matter what model they follow without any viable enforcement. 

Next time you meet one of the nice guys actually mounted on sleds, ask just how many of them are out.

I had an OPP officer tell me in confidence last year that there was one patrol from Renfrew/Kingston/Cornwall.

He may have been s#itting me, but that's basically D1.

2 sleds. 2 guys.

Not much of a deterrent.

 

 

[GTC]

We were up in Saint Zenon last week for a couple days, we were pulled over by trail patrol. They even had flashing lights on their sleds.

Thought it was the police at first but just trail patrol, as they couldnt speak english at all and only checked for permits.

Quebec will still be there when theres nothing left in Ontario, Ive personally lost faith in the OFSC they seem to be focused on the wrong things and have put too much on the volunteers.

Its at the point where every club should have a paid administrator just to keep track of paper work, its unbelievable.

Really pinch us hard on paid operators vs volunteer, drivers abstracts, wages etc, I can imagine the time they wast discussing this stuff when they should be trying to come up with solutions for the things that are killing the sport and closing trails

[LuvMyViper]

21 minutes ago, GTC said:

Ive personally lost faith in the OFSC they seem to be focused on the wrong things and have put too much on the volunteers.

Its at the point where every club should have a paid administrator just to keep track of paper work, its unbelievable.

Really pinch us hard on paid operators vs volunteer, drivers abstracts, wages etc, I can imagine the time they wast discussing this stuff when they should be trying to come up with solutions for the things that are killing the sport and closing trails

 

I'm starting to wonder if the OFSC has a Peter principle problem.  I don't know anything about the upper management of the OFSC but from what I've seen over the years it's possible.  I've seen it many time in companies I did business with. Very easy to spot it too...

 

 

The Peter principle is a concept in management developed by Laurence J. Peter, which observes that people in a hierarchy tend to rise to "a level of respective incompetence": employees are promoted based on their success in previous jobs until they reach a level at which they are no longer competent, as skills in one job do not necessarily translate to another.^[1]

 

The concept was explained in the 1969 book The Peter Principle (William Morrow and Company) by Peter and Raymond Hull.^[2] (Hull wrote the text, based on Peter's research.) Peter and Hull intended the book to be satire, but it became popular as it was seen to make a serious point about the shortcomings of how people are promoted within hierarchical organizations. The Peter Principle has since been the subject of much commentary and research.

 

Companies and organizations shaped their policies to contend with the Peter principle. Lazear stated that some companies expect that productivity will "regress to the mean" following promotion in their hiring and promotion practices.^[9] Other companies have adopted "up or out" strategies, such as the Cravath System, in which employees who do not advance are periodically fired. The Cravath System was developed at the law firm Cravath, Swaine & Moore, which made a practice of hiring chiefly recent law graduates, promoting internally and firing employees who do not perform at the required level.  Brian Christian and Tom Griffiths have suggested the additive increase/multiplicative decrease algorithm as a solution to the Peter principle less severe than firing employees who fail to advance. They propose a dynamic hierarchy in which employees are regularly either promoted or reassigned to a lower level so that any worker who is promoted to their point of failure is soon moved to an area where they are productive.

 

 

[Panther340]

2 hours ago, J Feces said:

I have said this for years, “it’s not sustainable” as it is currently …make the sled lic a trail permit and every sled in the province would have a permit. Need for enforcement would drop significantly. But this answer is too easy…let the bashing begin. 

Okay ,I will start the bashing......reason 1 ) why should the thousands of Northern Ontario snowmachine owners that don't use OFSC trails at all ,( many do not even live close to trails and use crown land instead)  pay for people in Southern Ont like yourself to do your sport. The political pushback would be substantial. ...Reason #2 - the lack of control over trail enforcement occurred when the Onrario Government took on more control over the OFSC a few years back, ....having them take complete financial control over the system, with  would put non snowmobilers ( politicians)  decision control over a complex system that needs expertise not more bureaucracy. 

[LuvMyViper]

9 minutes ago, Panther340 said:

the lack of control over trail enforcement occurred when the Onrario Government took on more control over the OFSC a few years back, ....having them take complete financial control over the system, with  would put non snowmobilers ( politicians)  decision control over a complex system that needs expertise not more bureaucracy. 

 

Very well said....

[zoso]

On 11/30/2021 at 5:47 PM, Canuck said:

it must be tough, being a police officer. Arrest, let go, rinse, repeat.

 

Like that carnival game - Whack a Moal. You hit it, it pops down. Then pops up again.

 

 

Wack a felon.

[LuvMyViper]

2 minutes ago, zoso said:

Wack a felon.

 

Yellowstone style

[zoso]

On 1/10/2022 at 8:13 PM, PISTON LAKE CRUISER said:

Here we go again:

    FROM PINERIDGE S.C.  F/B PAGE

 

Well folks, the season is barely started and NO trails open yet and we have a landowner complaint on our hands and will have to re-route a trail west of Exeter heading to the swamp due to sledders riding on a Closed trail crossing a wheat field. I get your keen but you just cost us a trail, ticked off a farmer and created a bunch of work for volunteers that don’t need more work. STAY OFF CLOSED trails and refer to ITG for their status, it’s that simple.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Heading up to massey area soon. My bud asked if his brother could tag along, I said sure, he lives in sudbury. Yesterday my buddy calls me, tells me his brother was out riding on closed trails with no permit. I told him he is not welcome to ride with us. We all must refuse to ride with idiots. I know no one here would, but many will.

[Spiderman]

1 hour ago, Panther340 said:

Okay ,I will start the bashing......reason 1 ) why should the thousands of Northern Ontario snowmachine owners that don't use OFSC trails at all ,( many do not even live close to trails and use crown land instead)  pay for people in Southern Ont like yourself to do your sport. The political pushback would be substantial. ...Reason #2 - the lack of control over trail enforcement occurred when the Onrario Government took on more control over the OFSC a few years back, ....having them take complete financial control over the system, with  would put non snowmobilers ( politicians)  decision control over a complex system that needs expertise not more bureaucracy. 

 

1. For the same reasons every vehicle owner has to pay towards "roads".  Can I have a tax credit back because I don't travel on northern roads that require a tonne more winter maintenance expense than the roads I do use?

 

The political push-back would be next to nothing - we're talking about a very small amount of numbers that in the grand scheme of things, wouldn't make a lick of a difference. What will happen - the same people who don't buy permits now refuse to buy a $35.00 license sticker? whooooo

 

2. Agree

[J Feces]

1 hour ago, Panther340 said:

Okay ,I will start the bashing......reason 1 ) why should the thousands of Northern Ontario snowmachine owners that don't use OFSC trails at all ,( many do not even live close to trails and use crown land instead)  pay for people in Southern Ont like yourself to do your sport. The political pushback would be substantial. ...Reason #2 - the lack of control over trail enforcement occurred when the Onrario Government took on more control over the OFSC a few years back, ....having them take complete financial control over the system, with  would put non snowmobilers ( politicians)  decision control over a complex system that needs expertise not more bureaucracy. 

 Yep Ive heard that argument before..I also own land in the north that is surrounded by crown land on 3 sides for miles. I will always have a place to ride. My fear is simply that the system will not continue as is based on what has been done in the past. I would like to it grow and flourish for the future. Not sure there is an easy answer..but I believe it needs to be different than it is currently to succeed. Cheers. 

[zoso]

1 hour ago, Spiderman said:

 

1. For the same reasons every vehicle owner has to pay towards "roads".  Can I have a tax credit back because I don't travel on northern roads that require a tonne more winter maintenance expense than the roads I do use?

 

The political push-back would be next to nothing - we're talking about a very small amount of numbers that in the grand scheme of things, wouldn't make a lick of a difference. What will happen - the same people who don't buy permits now refuse to buy a $35.00 license sticker? whooooo

 

2. Agree

You do use northern ontario roads. The commercial vehicles moving products you need use these roads, without the roads you see empty shelves. There 90% trucks running on northern ontario roads, very few personal vehicles. Last mont BC had all roads into the lower mainland shut down, they went into a state of emergency. 

[UsedtoSkidoo]

14 hours ago, skidooboy said:

same song, different verse... again, they collect our trail permit money, rely on volunteers, except for the main administration office staff, and reap the monetary benefit without the overhead. it is not sustainable. Ski

 

13 hours ago, J Feces said:

I have said this for years, “it’s not sustainable” as it is currently …make the sled lic a trail permit and every sled in the province would have a permit. Need for enforcement would drop significantly. But this answer is too easy…let the bashing begin. 

Agreed 1000%. Its run like a charity so it gets treated with little to no respect from anyone but us sledders.

[Nutter]

Some things to ponder within the scope of some of what's been discussed in this thread. 

 

The me me me generation is only getting worse, respect for one another for the most part is gone, not just in sledding. Everyone got a trophy whether they put forth an effort or not, so here we are ...........

 

30,000 km of trail in the province each trail with multiple access points - if trail closed signs were put up and removed at every access point each time a trail opened and closed throughout the season what would cost of the signs and logistics be, and how many volunteer hours would it take each time ? Also what kind of liabilities would it open if the odd sign here and there was missed if this was the standard practice ? 

 

Mid to late 40's Ted and Alice just want to help their community and volunteer with their local sled club because it's their way of giving back through something they enjoy in their spare time.  How much training and legal protection can you feasibly give to them to be effect Trail Patrol, and most importantly at the same time keep them from harms way ? 

 

Last season a group of 6 of us were trailside on a rail trail at an open area at a road crossing, checking permits and chatting with riders that stopped because they wanted to stop and chat. 90% of the riders were totally awesome just out riding and enjoying the day, posing for pic's for the clubs FB page, and also taking pic's themselves, very receptive to us being out there. We also helped a couple with a mechanical problem and saved their day.  After about an hour or so a group of 4 guys came up upon us at an overly high rate of speed fast enough that their stopping was uncontrolled, almost clipping some of us and others pulled well off the trail.  When we and some of the others that were at the stop tried to confront them while they made their stop at the road crossing, they were belligerent and extremely aggressive, one guy actually got off his sled and starting flexing and chirping off to everyone there. Pic's were taken and OPP were called and description and reg numbers were given, there was a snow unit out in the area, but never heard back from them, so figure they never saw them.  This wasn't the first time something like this has happened to our group. I like most other volunteers I just want to ride and volunteer to make sure we have trails and to help better my community.  I deal with aggressive scumbags at work all the time and have a decent amount of confrontation de-escalation, self defense and tactical training, and I honestly no longer feel safe out there doing trail patrol in the bush with sketchy cell service, and certainly don't want to have to deal with that crap while volunteering. 

 

I don't know the solution, but do feel the only thing that will save this sport (and mankind in general) is a shift in the attitude of the select ME ME ME few. No matter how much the fines are, or if the OPP put 10-20x the amount of man power out there it will never be enough to stop the self entitled a-hos.

 

Change has to come within the sport, like Zozo said, people have to stop doing things like riding with people with unpermitted sleds. Also take it a few steps further, not riding with people that ride with cans, or riders riding beyond their talent.... ect

 

 

[Spiderman]

18 minutes ago, Nutter said:

Some things to ponder within the scope of some of what's been discussed in this thread. 

 

The me me me generation is only getting worse, respect for one another for the most part is gone, not just in sledding. Everyone got a trophy whether they put forth an effort or not, so here we are ...........

 

30,000 km of trail in the province each trail with multiple access points - if trail closed signs were put up and removed at every access point each time a trail opened and closed throughout the season what would cost of the signs and logistics be, and how many volunteer hours would it take each time ? Also what kind of liabilities would it open if the odd sign here and there was missed if this was the standard practice ? 

 

Mid to late 40's Ted and Alice just want to help their community and volunteer with their local sled club because it's their way of giving back through something they enjoy in their spare time.  How much training and legal protection can you feasibly give to them to be effect Trail Patrol, and most importantly at the same time keep them from harms way ? 

 

Last season a group of 6 of us were trailside on a rail trail at an open area at a road crossing, checking permits and chatting with riders that stopped because they wanted to stop and chat. 90% of the riders were totally awesome just out riding and enjoying the day, posing for pic's for the clubs FB page, and also taking pic's themselves, very receptive to us being out there. We also helped a couple with a mechanical problem and saved their day.  After about an hour or so a group of 4 guys came up upon us at an overly high rate of speed fast enough that their stopping was uncontrolled, almost clipping some of us and others pulled well off the trail.  When we and some of the others that were at the stop tried to confront them while they made their stop at the road crossing, they were belligerent and extremely aggressive, one guy actually got off his sled and starting flexing and chirping off to everyone there. Pic's were taken and OPP were called and description and reg numbers were given, there was a snow unit out in the area, but never heard back from them, so figure they never saw them.  This wasn't the first time something like this has happened to our group. I like most other volunteers I just want to ride and volunteer to make sure we have trails and to help better my community.  I deal with aggressive scumbags at work all the time and have a decent amount of confrontation de-escalation, self defense and tactical training, and I honestly no longer feel safe out there doing trail patrol in the bush with sketchy cell service, and certainly don't want to have to deal with that crap while volunteering. 

 

I don't know the solution, but do feel the only thing that will save this sport (and mankind in general) is a shift in the attitude of the select ME ME ME few. No matter how much the fines are, or if the OPP put 10-20x the amount of man power out there it will never be enough to stop the self entitled a-hos.

 

Change has to come within the sport, like Zozo said, people have to stop doing things like riding with people with unpermitted sleds. Also take it a few steps further, not riding with people that ride with cans, or riders riding beyond their talent.... ect

 

 

 

All makes sense

[PISTON LAKE CRUISER]

47 minutes ago, Nutter said:

Some things to ponder within the scope of some of what's been discussed in this thread. 

 

The me me me generation is only getting worse, respect for one another for the most part is gone, not just in sledding. Everyone got a trophy whether they put forth an effort or not, so here we are ...........

 

30,000 km of trail in the province each trail with multiple access points - if trail closed signs were put up and removed at every access point each time a trail opened and closed throughout the season what would cost of the signs and logistics be, and how many volunteer hours would it take each time ? Also what kind of liabilities would it open if the odd sign here and there was missed if this was the standard practice ? 

 

Mid to late 40's Ted and Alice just want to help their community and volunteer with their local sled club because it's their way of giving back through something they enjoy in their spare time.  How much training and legal protection can you feasibly give to them to be effect Trail Patrol, and most importantly at the same time keep them from harms way ? 

 

Last season a group of 6 of us were trailside on a rail trail at an open area at a road crossing, checking permits and chatting with riders that stopped because they wanted to stop and chat. 90% of the riders were totally awesome just out riding and enjoying the day, posing for pic's for the clubs FB page, and also taking pic's themselves, very receptive to us being out there. We also helped a couple with a mechanical problem and saved their day.  After about an hour or so a group of 4 guys came up upon us at an overly high rate of speed fast enough that their stopping was uncontrolled, almost clipping some of us and others pulled well off the trail.  When we and some of the others that were at the stop tried to confront them while they made their stop at the road crossing, they were belligerent and extremely aggressive, one guy actually got off his sled and starting flexing and chirping off to everyone there. Pic's were taken and OPP were called and description and reg numbers were given, there was a snow unit out in the area, but never heard back from them, so figure they never saw them.  This wasn't the first time something like this has happened to our group. I like most other volunteers I just want to ride and volunteer to make sure we have trails and to help better my community.  I deal with aggressive scumbags at work all the time and have a decent amount of confrontation de-escalation, self defense and tactical training, and I honestly no longer feel safe out there doing trail patrol in the bush with sketchy cell service, and certainly don't want to have to deal with that crap while volunteering. 

 

I don't know the solution, but do feel the only thing that will save this sport (and mankind in general) is a shift in the attitude of the select ME ME ME few. No matter how much the fines are, or if the OPP put 10-20x the amount of man power out there it will never be enough to stop the self entitled a-hos.

 

Change has to come within the sport, like Zozo said, people have to stop doing things like riding with people with unpermitted sleds. Also take it a few steps further, not riding with people that ride with cans, or riders riding beyond their talent.... ect

 

 

While I agree with what you posted, I think we both know the me me me age isn't going to go away quickly if at all. We also know that the OPP will likely not increase the enforcement. 

So, given the above, do you want to help me set up a pool to pick the date organized snowmobiling in Ontario disappears?  Unfortunately,  that is what will happen unless there are positive changes made.

We have a model that works to our east. Why will those in charge not adopt it.

[Nutter]

2 hours ago, PISTON LAKE CRUISER said:

While I agree with what you posted, I think we both know the me me me age isn't going to go away quickly if at all. We also know that the OPP will likely not increase the enforcement. 

So, given the above, do you want to help me set up a pool to pick the date organized snowmobiling in Ontario disappears?  Unfortunately,  that is what will happen unless there are positive changes made.

We have a model that works to our east. Why will those in charge not adopt it.

 

 

If you're talking about Quebec we'd need to see huge legislative changes, here volunteers, landowners, clubs the OFSC and birds that fly over trails can be sued, Sure we win just about every single time, but in order to do that there is a huge cost burden, which Quebec doesn't have with their lawsuit protection legislation. The OFSC and every other none profit in Ontario has lobbied for it for as long as I can remember, our legal system isn't budging on it. Quebec is much different culturally especially when it comes to sledding, but they also have a lot of the same issues. 

 

Sometimes the only solution to a problem has to come from within the problem itself ........ 

 

 

I think we'd start to see changes if real sledders started to really care and really started applying constant pressure to the asshats, rather then turning a blind eye waiting for a band of sledding superhero's to show up and do something. 

[Spiderman]

5 minutes ago, Nutter said:

 

 

If you're talking about Quebec we'd need to see huge legislative changes, here volunteers, landowners, clubs the OFSC and birds that fly over trails can be sued, Sure we win just about every single time, but in order to do that there us a huge cost burden, which Quebec doesn't have with their lawsuit protection legislation. The OFSC and every other none profit in Ontario has lobbied for it for as long as I can remember, out legal system isn't budging on it. Quebec is much different culturally especially when it comes to sledding, but they also have a lot of the same issues. 

 

Sometimes the only solution to a problem has to come from within the problem itself ........ 

100% - their no right to sue law(s) is the biggest saving grace

[zoso]

2 hours ago, Nutter said:

Some things to ponder within the scope of some of what's been discussed in this thread. 

 

The me me me generation is only getting worse, respect for one another for the most part is gone, not just in sledding. Everyone got a trophy whether they put forth an effort or not, so here we are ...........

 

30,000 km of trail in the province each trail with multiple access points - if trail closed signs were put up and removed at every access point each time a trail opened and closed throughout the season what would cost of the signs and logistics be, and how many volunteer hours would it take each time ? Also what kind of liabilities would it open if the odd sign here and there was missed if this was the standard practice ? 

 

Mid to late 40's Ted and Alice just want to help their community and volunteer with their local sled club because it's their way of giving back through something they enjoy in their spare time.  How much training and legal protection can you feasibly give to them to be effect Trail Patrol, and most importantly at the same time keep them from harms way ? 

 

Last season a group of 6 of us were trailside on a rail trail at an open area at a road crossing, checking permits and chatting with riders that stopped because they wanted to stop and chat. 90% of the riders were totally awesome just out riding and enjoying the day, posing for pic's for the clubs FB page, and also taking pic's themselves, very receptive to us being out there. We also helped a couple with a mechanical problem and saved their day.  After about an hour or so a group of 4 guys came up upon us at an overly high rate of speed fast enough that their stopping was uncontrolled, almost clipping some of us and others pulled well off the trail.  When we and some of the others that were at the stop tried to confront them while they made their stop at the road crossing, they were belligerent and extremely aggressive, one guy actually got off his sled and starting flexing and chirping off to everyone there. Pic's were taken and OPP were called and description and reg numbers were given, there was a snow unit out in the area, but never heard back from them, so figure they never saw them.  This wasn't the first time something like this has happened to our group. I like most other volunteers I just want to ride and volunteer to make sure we have trails and to help better my community.  I deal with aggressive scumbags at work all the time and have a decent amount of confrontation de-escalation, self defense and tactical training, and I honestly no longer feel safe out there doing trail patrol in the bush with sketchy cell service, and certainly don't want to have to deal with that crap while volunteering. 

 

I don't know the solution, but do feel the only thing that will save this sport (and mankind in general) is a shift in the attitude of the select ME ME ME few. No matter how much the fines are, or if the OPP put 10-20x the amount of man power out there it will never be enough to stop the self entitled a-hos.

 

Change has to come within the sport, like Zozo said, people have to stop doing things like riding with people with unpermitted sleds. Also take it a few steps further, not riding with people that ride with cans, or riders riding beyond their talent.... ect

 

 

There are no easy answers. However you hit the nail on the head in regards to the entitled generation. To add to my previous story about my buds brother. He also got lost, had the ap for the map but too stupid to use it properly. Told his brother that the ofsc sucks blah blah blah. His brother told him the ap will not work without a trail pass. Lol. I doubt this guy has insurance,  so my hope is he gets busted for that as the trespass fine is too low.