Permit Prices

[Strong Farmer]

10 minutes ago, PISTON LAKE CRUISER said:

 

 

If you and like minded people woulldn't buy a permit last year until you were sure there was snow, how many would go for startiing to pay for a permit in September?

 

Last yesr was first year I did that because of covid situation mostly. 
I still think monthly payments would be a good idea and worth exploring. We are all use to making instalments today. 

[burndog]

On 8/2/2021 at 7:53 PM, ToSlow said:

Why should they get a discount?

 

we in the south have had to constantly trailer north to get snow with the exception of last yr.

 

we was never offered a discount.

 

different circumstances but same end results 

 Apples to oranges. "You in the south" can't mandate the weather/temps. needed to ride locally. I'm not looking for compensation but, the "almighty players" have economically ruined the better part of two seasons around here.

[stoney]

3 hours ago, Turbo Doo said:

For the majority of the riders, who can ride Quebec and the NCDN,  balking at a $200 permit, is ludicrous,  compared to the costs associated with riding those areas all the time.  Give me a break, we need to start paying a bit more, as long as that revenue goes to helping and making the system better, increase the price.  It's been at the same price for a few seasons now, and at the end of the day, what's a few more bucks.  I understand riders, especially in Southern Ontario,  who cannot either afford, via time or money, to get away and ride,  look at the permit price,  and look at the souths weather some seasons and say wtf, but the sport is what it is. Like it or not, it's a traveling sport.  Period. There are most likely some riders out there,  if given some info from the OFSC, about breakdown of costs to run the ship, and shown in a productive way, what it takes and costs to run and maintain a season, would gladly pay a increase.  In today's world, if you think prices can stay at a level like they did before, you need to wake up. As I stated before,  maybe a newsletter,  explaining the costs associated,  with a shown number of permit sales, various sales per region etc,  would help some with a permit price increase.  It's very basic numbers to show the permit buying group,  in hopes the info will help them understand the need for a permit increase.  Imo, that pretty basic info, needs to be shown to all permit buyers, and the saying of some to volunteer if you want that info is not right either.  A simple newsletter showing permit price,  permit sales for Ontario, either a total number sold,  or numbers sold per region,  a few basic costs,  and roughly where your permit dollars are distributed to thru the various costs, and explain the rising costs,  like fuel, insurance etc, I think,  would help the broader permit buying group to understand the need for a increase.  Some may not like it, but it is, what it is. Sooner or later it needs to go up in price.  Record number of sled sales again this year, with new sled prices being increased more then a few bucks.  So wtf....

 

Good discussion going here on OC. 

 

2 hours ago, vooodooo said:

Just looked at Blue mountain. 

2020 it was $63 for a Day pass.

So if you bought an early OFSC pass, that's just about 3 days of skiing.

 

Prices aside, I believe lobbying the province for funding is necessary.

They know how it helps restaurants and tourism. Both have been hit hard.

 

Lobbying for some actual enforcement is beyond needed.

I wish I could keep track of the unpermitted sleds I see on the trails, I believe it to be roughly %20.

Imagine %20 more grooming, or %20 fewer sleds.

Cops don't have the time, nor is it worth it.

Bring back STOP.

 

 

 

 

Agreed above…. And with divulging some of those basic numbers from revenue and costs, expand on the tax funding as well, what is received, what is asked for, how is is lobbied, etc…..

 

educating people is a good thing for many, but as I said, it will also Bring the negative comments too, that I know for a person volunteering, that’s a big slap in that face,  which is life unfortunately and must be accepted as such. 

[ToSlow]

2 hours ago, burndog said:

 Apples to oranges. "You in the south" can't mandate the weather/temps. needed to ride locally. I'm not looking for compensation but, the "almighty players" have economically ruined the better part of two seasons around here.

Then go after the powers to be, the ofsc was following what the local government mandated 

[Strong Farmer]

3 hours ago, burndog said:

 Apples to oranges. "You in the south" can't mandate the weather/temps. needed to ride locally. I'm not looking for compensation but, the "almighty players" have economically ruined the better part of two seasons around here.

Then wait until trails open before buying the permit. That’s why there is an in season rate. 

[zoso]

14 hours ago, Turbo Doo said:

For the majority of the riders, who can ride Quebec and the NCDN,  balking at a $200 permit, is ludicrous,  compared to the costs associated with riding those areas all the time.  Give me a break, we need to start paying a bit more, as long as that revenue goes to helping and making the system better, increase the price.  It's been at the same price for a few seasons now, and at the end of the day, what's a few more bucks.  I understand riders, especially in Southern Ontario,  who cannot either afford, via time or money, to get away and ride,  look at the permit price,  and look at the souths weather some seasons and say wtf, but the sport is what it is. Like it or not, it's a traveling sport.  Period. There are most likely some riders out there,  if given some info from the OFSC, about breakdown of costs to run the ship, and shown in a productive way, what it takes and costs to run and maintain a season, would gladly pay a increase.  In today's world, if you think prices can stay at a level like they did before, you need to wake up. As I stated before,  maybe a newsletter,  explaining the costs associated,  with a shown number of permit sales, various sales per region etc,  would help some with a permit price increase.  It's very basic numbers to show the permit buying group,  in hopes the info will help them understand the need for a permit increase.  Imo, that pretty basic info, needs to be shown to all permit buyers, and the saying of some to volunteer if you want that info is not right either.  A simple newsletter showing permit price,  permit sales for Ontario, either a total number sold,  or numbers sold per region,  a few basic costs,  and roughly where your permit dollars are distributed to thru the various costs, and explain the rising costs,  like fuel, insurance etc, I think,  would help the broader permit buying group to understand the need for a increase.  Some may not like it, but it is, what it is. Sooner or later it needs to go up in price.  Record number of sled sales again this year, with new sled prices being increased more then a few bucks.  So wtf....

 

Good discussion going here on OC. 

The 200 bucks is worth it for a few days riding from home. OR, even if I did not ride at all in a given season, gotta keep the trails open. Heck, I spend 1700 on insurance for 2 bikes we have ridden twice this summer and may only get out two more times on them. That is twice the price for the sled insurance and passes combined.

[Turbo Doo]

22 hours ago, stoney said:

 

Agreed above…. And with divulging some of those basic numbers from revenue and costs, expand on the tax funding as well, what is received, what is asked for, how is is lobbied, etc…..

 

educating people is a good thing for many, but as I said, it will also Bring the negative comments too, that I know for a person volunteering, that’s a big slap in that face,  which is life unfortunately and must be accepted as such. 

X2. 

[Turbo Doo]

11 hours ago, zoso said:

The 200 bucks is worth it for a few days riding from home. OR, even if I did not ride at all in a given season, gotta keep the trails open. Heck, I spend 1700 on insurance for 2 bikes we have ridden twice this summer and may only get out two more times on them. That is twice the price for the sled insurance and passes combined.

Exactly. The $200 permit is nothing,  compared to other costs...

[Strong Farmer]

1 hour ago, Turbo Doo said:

Exactly. The $200 permit is nothing,  compared to other costs...

Then let’s Jack it up to 250 on or before nov ist and 300 before on or before dec 1. Then in season In 450 and on trail is 800 bucks, then maybe opp will go out more. That should fix revenue issue and get everyone to buy early.

early permit isn’t enough discount really to bother buying early. 
200 Increase I buy it early no questions asked. 

[PISTON LAKE CRUISER]

1 hour ago, Strong Farmer said:

Then let’s Jack it up to 250 on or before nov ist and 300 before on or before dec 1. Then in season In 450 and on trail is 800 bucks, then maybe opp will go out more. That should fix revenue issue and get everyone to buy early.

early permit isn’t enough discount really to bother buying early. 
200 Increase I buy it early no questions asked. 

Thousand's of people who bought early in past years beg to differ.

[Turbo Doo]

27 minutes ago, PISTON LAKE CRUISER said:

Thousand's of people who bought early in past years beg to differ.

Thanks PLC.  Another thing is, if we gradually have been raising prices the last few seasons,  it sure would be a easier pill to swallow for the ones who complain.  

[PISTON LAKE CRUISER]

5 hours ago, Turbo Doo said:

Thanks PLC.  Another thing is, if we gradually have been raising prices the last few seasons,  it sure would be a easier pill to swallow for the ones who complain.  

That would have been the right way to do it TD. I think is it was only up to the OFSC prices would increase slowly. The problem is that the MTO has last say on pricing. They have been putting hefty increases on car/truck renewals the last while so I'm not sure what the problem is with increasing sled permits.

[Turbo Doo]

1 minute ago, PISTON LAKE CRUISER said:

That would have been the right way to do it TD. I think is it was only up to the OFSC prices would increase slowly. The problem is that the MTO has last say on pricing. They have been putting hefty increases on car/truck renewals the last while so I'm not sure what the problem is with increasing sled permits.

I agree. It's been a missed opportunity to gradually increase permit prices. Even a slight increase year over year would have been good for the sport. Now we are facing the actual real need for it, and the complainers will be out in full force over any such thing. 

[Sksman]

41 minutes ago, Turbo Doo said:

I agree. It's been a missed opportunity to gradually increase permit prices. Even a slight increase year over year would have been good for the sport. Now we are facing the actual real need for it, and the complainers will be out in full force over any such thing. 

What was total permits sold last year?

 

Early VS late buys?

 

 

 

[Strong Farmer]

8 minutes ago, Sksman said:

What was total permits sold last year?

 

Early VS late buys?

 

 

 

That’s top secret info. All I know is, I think it costs around 16 million to run the system for season or it did in past anyways not sure what last year or two would be? 

[LuvMyViper]

1 hour ago, Turbo Doo said:

I agree. It's been a missed opportunity to gradually increase permit prices.  

 

Hasn't the trail permit been $200 for the last 15-20 years?

[Strong Farmer]

1 hour ago, LuvMyViper said:

 

Hasn't the trail permit been $200 for the last 15-20 years?

Was above for early permit then they came out with early early price. I think it went as high as 210 or so for early permit. Sales went down so they came out with earlier permit option at 180 plus shipping fee. 
 

[Turbo Doo]

2 hours ago, Sksman said:

What was total permits sold last year?

 

Early VS late buys?

 

 

 

My thoughts exactly.  Simple info that could be shared..

[Turbo Doo]

1 hour ago, LuvMyViper said:

 

Hasn't the trail permit been $200 for the last 15-20 years?

Again, a lost opportunity to gradually increase permit cost, little by little each year. 

[LuvMyViper]

13 minutes ago, Turbo Doo said:

Again, a lost opportunity to gradually increase permit cost, little by little each year. 

 

 Think it's the "Peter Principle" again. It's been a huge problem for businesses for many years.

 

The Peter Principle is a concept in management developed by Laurence J. Peter, which observes that people in a hierarchy tend to rise to their "maximum level of incompetence": employees are promoted based on their success in previous jobs until they reach a level at which they are no longer competent, as skills in one job do not necessarily translate to another.

[Sksman]

2 hours ago, Turbo Doo said:

Again, a lost opportunity to gradually increase permit cost, little by little each year. 

Unfortunately I believe it’s probably not that easy when you break down the different types of snowmobilers who buy trail permits and look at the economics behind the permit purchase decision.

 

You easily have 4 or 5 different groups of people with varying levels of dedication and commitment to the sport.   And the time it takes.  And the costs associated.  

 

And while the permit may only cost “X” dollars there is a supply and demand curve that comes into effect for each group of buyers.  That’s why when the price increases to say $210 or whatever level there is significant drop in demand.

 

The whole key is to get maximum permit revenue from across the whole combined groups not just say $350 from each of the 10,000 very dedicated core sledheads.

 

The meat and potato’s revenue comes from the groups that buys permits and rides very little in comparison.  Their permit dollars would support everyone else who ride a lot.  

 

 

Thats is why why for me it would be interesting to see permit totals year to year.

 

 

[Turbo Doo]

9 hours ago, Sksman said:

Unfortunately I believe it’s probably not that easy when you break down the different types of snowmobilers who buy trail permits and look at the economics behind the permit purchase decision.

 

You easily have 4 or 5 different groups of people with varying levels of dedication and commitment to the sport.   And the time it takes.  And the costs associated.  

 

And while the permit may only cost “X” dollars there is a supply and demand curve that comes into effect for each group of buyers.  That’s why when the price increases to say $210 or whatever level there is significant drop in demand.

 

The whole key is to get maximum permit revenue from across the whole combined groups not just say $350 from each of the 10,000 very dedicated core sledheads.

 

The meat and potato’s revenue comes from the groups that buys permits and rides very little in comparison.  Their permit dollars would support everyone else who ride a lot.  

 

 

Thats is why why for me it would be interesting to see permit totals year to year.

 

 

I agree.  But honestly is the level of trails with the associated costs, sustainable at this current permit price?. And if people balk at a measly increase of $10, then maybe this is not the sport for you. I just do not get what the problem is with a little increase to help things improve for the better. Just my opinion...

[Sksman]

1 minute ago, Turbo Doo said:

I agree.  But honestly is the level of trails with the associated costs, sustainable at this current permit price?. 

Good question! 

 

 

[yamadan700]

In our district, permit sales (seasonal and classic) were up over 10% from 2019 to 2020. Up around 20% from 2020 to 2021.

Around 80% of both were sold before Dec 1st.

Classic makes up around 8% of the total sales.

 

According to the OFSC website, "Altogether, you bought 2019 Trail Permits for about 105,000 sleds".

 

If the permit sales increase is the same across the province, the need for an increase in permit prices may not be needed at this time. JMO

[Turbo Doo]

47 minutes ago, yamadan700 said:

the permit sales increase is the same across the province, the need for an increase in permit prices may not be needed at this time. JMO

Great point also. And some areas had shortened seasons due to weather and or politics,  so there could possibly be a bit of a surplus.