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Borrowing a sled - Moral dilemma


scottyr

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Never borrow or loan a 2-stroke. 

 

Not being smart a$$ or pro 4 stroke...…..I will just not ever even ride one for fear of this.  Too many blown motors under my A$$ over the years.  

 

PS.  In 2008 I lent my good buddy my Apex for a 1000 km ride.  All I said was you crash it it's yours.

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I think it depends on your relationship as well as finances of the borrower. When I lend something valuable to my brother I do it knowing he doesn't have the money to fix it if something major happens. That said I would still expect him to offer, or give me a hand with the labour to fix.

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11 hours ago, Dragon600 said:

Unwritten rule. If it breaks while you’re riding it you pay to fix it. Regardless of How big or small the issue is. 
 

I'm of a similar mindset... if I borrow something I return it in as good a condition or better than it was when I borrowed it. While it may not be my fault the motor blew up it was in my care. I would be willing to and offer to pay for the repairs. If the owner accepts or doesn't is their decision but my conscience would be clear. If they accepted my offer to pay for it that's fine. Having said that I never borrow anything that pricey. Typically I borrow tools. The last thing I borrowed was a chainsaw. When I returned it the gas tank and chain oil was full, the air filter checked the bar and engine cleaned and the chain sharpened. It was in better condition than when I borrowed it.

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2 hours ago, Yamaha Fan said:

This would never have happened if he had borrowed a Yamaha  .... humm.:bowdown:

Oh come on Yamaha fan. All manufactures have trouble and when a four stroke breaks sled is a write off. Way less likely then a two stroke but you can still over heat a four stroke easily and damage motor on a sled. 

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Ok one more

.......

 

Never love anything that doesn't love you back. 

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10 minutes ago, Strong Farmer said:

Oh come on Yamaha fan. All manufactures have trouble and when a four stroke breaks sled is a write off. Way less likely then a two stroke but you can still over heat a four stroke easily and damage motor on a sled. 

14 years riding a 4 stroke alongside other 4 stroke Yamahas and I've never seen those or any other ones overheated.

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I borrowed a dealer sled back in 15 and crashed it, I paid for the parts.

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4 minutes ago, PISTON LAKE CRUISER said:

14 years riding a 4 stroke alongside other 4 stroke Yamahas and I've never seen those or any other ones overheated.

I had the warning light come on for overheating with my old 4 stroke once. Twisting turning very hard packed bumpy trail where you had to go slow for a stretch. No snow for cooling and going that slow. Had to stop, let it cool down and continue until I got out of that section of trail.

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I kicked my mom off a dealer borrowed Rupp American (my dad helped out at the dealership in the winter) when I was 9, and went'n played on the hills of a big sink hole near Grayling, Mich.

Found that the top of the pull was all ice, and was not studded. 

Stopped about 8' or ? from the top, spinning WOT, and could see a tree root sticking out a cpl feet in front of my ski, and knew that if I somehow get that far, that root will Shirley stop me in my tracks with no hope.

 

Looking back down that hill - I knew the decent backwards would not be pretty...

 

As I set here today, all I can say is that the hand of God came down and grabbed a ski hoop and gave me a big tug, and I shot over the top.

 

I was not allowed to ride that sled again, but did get my own new sled a few weeks later. (small Pol noted on the left)

Came out WAY better than it could have!

 

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I'm w/ Frostynutz on this one. I have too much money tied up in my sleds over the years to lend them out. 

 

Now if my brother had to borrow 1 because his sled was unavailable I would let him use it because I know how he looks after his own sled.

 

I have been aware of 'incidents' over the years & there always seems to be a lot of back & forth & misgivings in the aftermath.

 

 

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A motor grenading on a 2 stroke is a bit of grey area in my opinion. I had this happen to me with a friend before, I took a friend riding for a weekend & he was using one my sleds he had never been on sled trip before & was by no means hard on the sled. Before we left all I said to him was if you hit something you pay for the repairs, since you're in control of the machine. The sled ended up throwing a crank bearing & seized he didn't know what happened when I got back to him. I checked the sled out & told him the motor blew, the first thing out of his mouth was how much is that going to cost, I told him nothing I would fix it, I said its a snowmobile these things happen, he felt horrible & kept asking if I was sure I didn't want any money! Its the shit part about 2 strokes they just go without warning sometimes!! My situation is a bit different since I know the sled was warmed up properly all the time & he wasn't beating on the sled!!

 

Just my $0.02!

 

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Just to add confusion and drama to this.

 

I can go out and cold-seize ANY 2 stroke doo, in certain riding conditions (outside temperatures).  We've been having fits with some seizures that appear for no particular reason.  Under the impression that the sled will protect itself (warm-up mode), but it won't if it's already warmed up.  We've had over a dozen cases over the last 3 seasons.  Here's the scenerio.

 

Operator is out riding with his friends for a while, they stop just before a lake crossing, shut the sleds off for 15-20 minutes, few smokes and some chat.  Get back on the sleds, start crossing the lake.  Within seconds, OH CRAP ... Huge patch of slush .... hammer the gas (this actually happened, operator explained in great detail) to get through the slush, after about 5 seconds of WOT it bogged momentarily, then continued across, but sounded differently after.  The piston heated up quicker than the cylinder did, despite having been run less than 1/2 hour prior. The heat exchanger (146" sled) was well cold, when the thermostat opened back up the frozen coolant got into the engine, tightened up the walls just enough for the now expanding piston to squeak. 

 

We confirmed a cold seize pattern on the piston upon disassembly (it was a trade-in sled that never saw abuse).  We've been since taking photos and sending them to BRP for analysis and providing them evidence that you can indeed cold seize a "warm" engine.  It's happened to very experienced customers that are very reliable in their accounts.  I keep one on the shelf, to show the customers.

 

 

Back to the topic above ...

 

Did the borrower necessarily abuse the sled ?  Not likely, if he has any self respect.  But (and without knowing what actually failed in his case), it still blew up.  Someone who doesn't know any different could easily go and squeak a piston without knowing how or why, can happen easily.  Stop for 15 minutes chatting, get on, hammer the gas.  Not necessarily abuse, but not sufficiently warmed up prior to giving full throttle.  I'm SOoooo particular when taking off after pit stops now it's not funny.

 

As per lending / trading sleds, Nunz and I swap regularly, we have good communication and trust each other intuitively.  He knows I'm good for it, and vice versa, along with several other members on here.  To an "acquaintance" wanting a thrill, line up beside me and I'll give you a thrill.  You won't get one on my equipment if I don't know you're good for it or not.

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58 minutes ago, Bryan XC700 said:

My situation is a bit different since I know the sled was warmed up properly all the time & he wasn't beating on the sled!!

Yeah, a 4 corner seize IS up to the rider.

 

 

Denis - note that I wanted to "like" your post aboot the cold jugs, but the software said that I liked too much stuff today already. 

???

 

.. And on the subject of cold jugs, a local sledder here posted a pic of a tree full of booby traps in Da UP eh.

IDK what on Earth that's all aboot....

 

.

 

Edited by Ox
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1 hour ago, 02Sled said:

I had the warning light come on for overheating with my old 4 stroke once. Twisting turning very hard packed bumpy trail where you had to go slow for a stretch. No snow for cooling and going that slow. Had to stop, let it cool down and continue until I got out of that section of trail.

Cat early warning light goes off quite a bit on my 2015 XF8000,  compared to my others sleds when running side by side down a low snow condition.  The Poo's won't throw a warning even though scratchers should really be used, interesting to see what the new Doo does.

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13 hours ago, Dragon600 said:

Unwritten rule. If it breaks while you’re riding it you pay to fix it. Regardless of How big or small the issue is. 
 

YUp.

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My opinion is when borrowing anything, it gets broken you should at least offer the pay for the repair at the minimum and let the owner of the machine decide on what is acceptable. My brother borrows Karen's sled a couple of times a year and although under warranty the understanding is he would pay for any damage to the sled if it were to happen. I agree with the comments above that there should be a conversation prior to taking the machine or equipment about any possible damages or breakdowns.

 

Just my two cents worth.

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22 minutes ago, Strong Farmer said:

If water pump fails the sled can over heat in a hurry and not throw a warning code. Rare but does happen from time to time. 

The code would prompt the operator to shut the engine off or might possibly shut the engine off automatically if the overheating continued meaning no major damage occurs to the engine and thereby requiring only a water pump replacement not writing off the sled! JMHO

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5 hours ago, paulslund said:

I think I'm going to be a minority here and say that if I lent my sled to someone, and it blew up due to mechanical failure, there is no way I would ask them to pay for it, unless they caused said mechanical failure.  If I sent them on their way, full tank of gas, full tank of oil, greased skid and good bearings, and the engine just puked that is in no way their doing, and it would have happened to me riding it as well..to ask your friend for money is profiteering in my mind.

 

I fully agree with "you break it, you fix it (or buy it)" ...  but not with "if it happens to break while you were using it, you fix it (or buy it)".  That's extreme in my mind.

 

Paul.

I am of this mindset as well.   If the failure was of no fault of the rider and was going to happen regardless of who was riding it at the time then its just one of those things that can happen.   I know my buddy offered the owner $1000 as he doesnt want any hard feelings.  I am not sure what the owners reponse was.   

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3 hours ago, revrnd said:

I'm w/ Frostynutz on this one. I have too much money tied up in my sleds over the years to lend them out. 

 

Now if my brother had to borrow 1 because his sled was unavailable I would let him use it because I know how he looks after his own sled.

 

I have been aware of 'incidents' over the years & there always seems to be a lot of back & forth & misgivings in the aftermath.

 

 

I'm with you on the family aspect. My brother isn't quite as using my wife's word "anal" as I am when it comes to taking care of things but if he wanted to borrow anything he would bring it back as good as or better than when I loaned it to him.

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56 minutes ago, PISTON LAKE CRUISER said:

The code would prompt the operator to shut the engine off or might possibly shut the engine off automatically if the overheating continued meaning no major damage occurs to the engine and thereby requiring only a water pump replacement not writing off the sled! JMHO

Just seen one four stroke doo this. The engine was a right off Apparantly happened so fast on a lake run, engine was toast before warning code came up. It was a 2011, 1200 doo. I think new sleds are much smarter and more protection in them, but wierd things can still happen occasionally, especially in extreme circumstances like Dennis pointed out. 

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I sold my 2011 1200 to a guy from Baden  hope its not the same sled . As he may want his money back .  I know off topic .

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Imo I think if I lent a sled out and the persons smashed it up or busted something I would expect them to pay for it.  If buddy was crusing and it blew a piston it would of happened to me so thats out of mine and his hands.  Btw I dont let people use my stuff so....

 

I also do not like borrowing things from people for this exact reason.  Typically if I need something I will buy it. ie. tools etc.

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6 hours ago, ArcticCrusher said:

I don't borrow out my sleds or powersports, however I do invite family, friends, employees,  customers, suppliers etc to ride them and am happy to provide the experience.

 

I take full responsibility for accidents as they are with myself or my son present.  I'm more concerned if they get damaged while being driven carelessly as the machines can be replaced.

 

I don't expect anyone to pony up and would never accept any form of payment, but its nice to get an offer.

 

I have asked interested family members to come experience riding in Northern Canada because it is so nice.  My brother is coming this season from Arizona to ride.  I asked him to come.

 

I have had one of my son-in laws come along.  Two seasons back we made a great loop from Searchmont through all of the Northern Corridor and back down the other side to Searchmont.  Last season from SSM east and back including days of Drummond Island and using the tree line back and forth to St. Joseph Island.  The north shore was the best I have ever seen it with lots of snow.

 

He crashed and rolled a different sled during each trip, but I was still happy that he loves riding.  He offered to pay, but in wanting him to come I had already figured that since I invited him, he would not be held responsible for any issues.  He had never ridden a sled before since he is from southern Illinois. The key is that I asked him to use my sleds. 

 

I have loaned a sled in the past, but a friend asked to take it due to his being in the shop.  At that time I agreed with the understanding that he fixes or buys the sled for $X,XXX in the event of issues.  After all, he asked me to use the sled, I did not invite him to use it.

 

My question is, did the friend ask to use it, or was he invited to take it on the trip?   

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1 hour ago, Strong Farmer said:

Just seen one four stroke doo this. The engine was a right off Apparantly happened so fast on a lake run, engine was toast before warning code came up. It was a 2011, 1200 doo. I think new sleds are much smarter and more protection in them, but wierd things can still happen occasionally, especially in extreme circumstances like Dennis pointed out. 

Denis was talking about 2 stroke engines

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