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Manitoba considers mandatory permit


Bigfish

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Thank you. Well worth reading.

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I don't believe that this is a bad idea. You own a sled, it's plated and insured, your plate fee goes up $100 per year, everyone pays and everyone has a trail permit included. No more automatic freeloading.  Make the penalty severe enough if you're not legal and everyone will win. 

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To me, seems like a terrific idea making it part of the plate renewal. Suspect part of the trick to making it work, how money flows back into the clubs but no doubt it would be a sizable dent in the freeloader crowd. Also agree on making the fine substantial enough that once a few are caught, news will spread like wild.

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Just a thought................

 

If this scenario (permit and val tag combined) were to come to Ontario, what effect would this have on the current issue of trail closures due to OFSC insurance not covering non-sledders?

Edited by Bigfish
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Why does a guy who does not ride a groomed trail ever have to pay for trail grooming?

And there are many of those guys out there.  See lake Simcoe or Lake Nipissing in January to March. 

 

Yes there are are guys that ride groomed trails with out a permit who ice fish.  

And lots of guys who ride groomed trails without a permit and do not ice fish. 

 

This is an old argument and been had many times over.  

 

I think all val tags on snowmobiles should include a fishing license.  No trail permit required.  there are as many or more snowmobiles used for ice fishing then trail riding and many people do not buy fishing licenses but fish.  

 

Maybe include a fishing license and trail permit then all happy?

 

 

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I have been saying this for years. Lic on snow machine becomes trail permit. No lic not legal anywhere impose fines. Would simplify enforcement. Revenue would go up big time for trail maintenance. The challenge would be getting revenue back in hands of clubs instead of the MTO. There will be those that oppose it...but I am for it 100%. Cheers. 

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You are so right Sksman. I have never used a OFsc trail but enjoy the sport and live in a rural area where snowmachines are allowed on roads. I should not have to subsidize a sport that cant enforce their rules. I respect the OFSC but they do not represent hundreds of thousand of non trail riders. I also see how many here admit their trail pass costs not enough and if more could better cover enforcement. Manitoba is going down a slippery slope. Whats next ...ATV plates increased to cover ATV trail grooming ? Many winter sports are required to cover all their costs eg downhill skiing where hill pass is over $ 60 for 8 hrs of skiing. Whereas Ofsc pass is under $200 for over 60 days on any trail . Lets be realistic and consider better ways to enforce trail use and improve / expand your sport without causing a hateon from other snowmachine owners . 

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I looked up demographics of Manitoba and applied it to the 35000 reg sleds in Manitoba. I see over 15% are native or metis and considering they are high sled use owners. Now apply all the other exempt owners that would not be subject to mandatory $100 plate per year. And you end up with maybe 20 % exempt. ( roughly 7000 of the 35000) So that leaves the 19000 trail rider owners paying $50 less per year . ( so loss of $950000 incoming) but a gain of 9000 owners forced to pay $ 100 . So gain of $900000) So net loss of 50000...now take out process costs etc gov takes and you see it is at best a loss not gain after exempt riders applied. SIMILAR math would need to be applied to Ontario and any little gain in funds from Gov played against backlash from non trail owners. 

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I pay over $1000 a year for "transit tax" and I have not set foot on public transit since that ONE TIME back in 1992. (I'm still in recovery,  55 minutes to go 11km, not including the 40 minute wait for a bus that runs every 15 minutes...)

I'd be all in favour of this, especially if it motivated enforcement.

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1 hour ago, Panther340 said:

You are so right Sksman. I have never used a OFsc trail but enjoy the sport and live in a rural area where snowmachines are allowed on roads. I should not have to subsidize a sport that cant enforce their rules. I respect the OFSC but they do not represent hundreds of thousand of non trail riders. I also see how many here admit their trail pass costs not enough and if more could better cover enforcement. Manitoba is going down a slippery slope. Whats next ...ATV plates increased to cover ATV trail grooming ? Many winter sports are required to cover all their costs eg downhill skiing where hill pass is over $ 60 for 8 hrs of skiing. Whereas Ofsc pass is under $200 for over 60 days on any trail . Lets be realistic and consider better ways to enforce trail use and improve / expand your sport without causing a hateon from other snowmachine owners . 

My feelings exactly. I don't want non trail users subsidizing my recreation, but we need to see targeted enforcement of trespassing laws on OFSC trails. I think its called a 'user pay' system.

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2 hours ago, Sksman said:

Why does a guy who does not ride a groomed trail ever have to pay for trail grooming?

And there are many of those guys out there.  See lake Simcoe or Lake Nipissing in January to March. 

 

Yes there are are guys that ride groomed trails with out a permit who ice fish.  

And lots of guys who ride groomed trails without a permit and do not ice fish. 

 

This is an old argument and been had many times over.  

 

I think all val tags on snowmobiles should include a fishing license.  No trail permit required.  there are as many or more snowmobiles used for ice fishing then trail riding and many people do not buy fishing licenses but fish.  

 

Maybe include a fishing license and trail permit then all happy?

 

 

You're right we have been down this road before but there are countless examples of people paying for things they don't use. Provincial parks are not self sufficient and camping for the user is subsidized. I don't use public swimming pools, libraries, ice rinks and so much more. The Trent Severn Waterway and Rideau Canal is subsidized by people who will never use it. Game wardens are subsidized by people who don't hunt or fish.

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I agree 02sled ...... we have debated this too much in past and it got heated too much. But considering the math I Expressed above..is it really worth the alienation of all the other non ofsc trail owners ......it exchanges one problem for another.  ( and ofsc is aready subsidized some) 

Edited by Panther340
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Maybe "Northern Ontario" could be exempted from the proposal.

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1 hour ago, Blake G said:

Maybe "Northern Ontario" could be exempted from the proposal.

Why?

Does it not cost anything to put trails in there?

 

(playing devils advocate, here)

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3 hours ago, Panther340 said:

I agree 02sled ...... we have debated this too much in past and it got heated too much. But considering the math I Expressed above..is it really worth the alienation of all the other non ofsc trail owners ......it exchanges one problem for another.  ( and ofsc is aready subsidized some) 

Sometimes we get provincial money sometimes we don't. The amount is variable and often has ties such as defining specifically what it can be used for. There's validate perspectives from both sides. It worked in Saskatchean and it may be the case soon in Manitoba. If they can survive the transition perhaps Ontario could as well. When there is change we tend to grumble about it for a bit and then it becomes old news and we just get on with life. As for ice fishing. I have come across a bunch of people over the years who claim to be going ice fishing even though they are quite a distance from the ice and on a trail.

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How can you justify this to those that ride in areas that do not even have ofsc trails. BTW, all examples of things we may pay for but not use such as the trent, pools etc. are government owned and run entities, not private like ofsc trails. Why not make everyone that buys a winter coat pay a tax so I can ski for free.

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Ok lets bring some Ontario based math to discussion to get realistic about how much new money would come in if annual registration plate money was used  Lets assume gov gas it be annual reg plate is $100 . And lets assume all of the $100  was given to ofsc ( it wouldn't be all but lets assume best case) So stats Canada shows in 2018 there was 155,000 registered snow machines in Ontario. And lets assume 85,000 are Ofsc permits per year. Lets assume 15 percent of the 155,000 are exempt eg natives, ice fishers, remote rural, trappers lets assume another 10% are machines worth less than $1000 where owners like me won't register anymore. That leaves maybe 31,250 machines where new money of $100 per machine goes to ofsc ....so 3.12 million added....but the 85,000 ofsc permit holders would only be giving ofsc 100 per year instead of 200 . SO 8.5 MILLION LESS. Even if my exempt numbers are inflated somewhat it is a loss to ofsc unless plates were $160 or more each year and that wont happen. 

 

 

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Lets see how it works out in Manitoba. Some change is necessary No doubt. INo one knows what right approach going forward is. Early permit at a discount is starting to catch up to us and permit numbers aren’t growing anymore. So a different approach is necessary. I think there are around 160 k sleds registered in ontario and approx 52000 full season permits sold (just rough facts not sure on current numbers). I see panther has a rough estimate too. Does anyone know the real permit numbers and registered sleds in ontario for 2019 season? 
Also what permit numbers are for 2020 season. I see no press release from ofsc so maybe numbers are down again,, I dunno! 

Edited by Strong Farmer
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I think Enforcement* Enforcement  *Enforcement  * and HIGH fines would work, but police in my area when you do see them only check license sticker and insurance. Not once have I seen a cop do the paperwork for no permit. 

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50 minutes ago, RIVERMAN said:

I think Enforcement* Enforcement  *Enforcement  * and HIGH fines would work, but police in my area when you do see them only check license sticker and insurance. Not once have I seen a cop do the paperwork for no permit. 

Many departments don’t have sleds anymore either. So patrol is limited to road crossings and sitting in a patrol vehicle. Drones hovering above trail taking video might be more effective and sent fines out in mail, like red light camera. Just bill owner of the sled for 500 bucks. That would turn things around quick. 

Edited by Strong Farmer
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@Panther340 Thankfully you're using some more accurate numbers. Up to a few years ago a figure of 300,000 sleds in Ontario was always trotted out. Most people in the sport doubted it was accurate.

 

If the non-compliance fine WAS a penalty, maybe just maybe permit sales would increase.

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50 minutes ago, Strong Farmer said:

Many departments don’t have sleds anymore either. So patrol is limited to road crossings and sitting in a patrol vehicle. Drones hovering above trail taking video might be more effective and sent fines out in mail, like red light camera. Just bill owner of the sled for 500 bucks. That would turn things around quick. 

 

If the MTO is involved with the trail permit, why doesnt the OPP enforce the regs saying you need it on OFSC trails?

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