More On The Snow

[dweese]

Not sure where you are getting "do we continue to push permit prices up" from. Last time I checked they were down to $180.00 if you bought in the timeframe.

They do need to increase just like your license sticker for the Dart has.

I was talking about in the future. Yes the new 180 early bird price has lowered prices and added more users. But for how much longer is 180 bucks a permit going to cover the cost? Was kind of where I was headed.

[dweese]

Take away local trails and increase traffic on what's left and you will lose permit sales, not everyone can afford the time or money to trailer to these remote places, however they do want smooth trails and variety. The majority that do trailer don't trailer more then 2-4 hours. Take away more permit sales there won't be enough money to support either area.

I'm that guy that no one wants to hear my opinion about buying from smaller clubs just so they can survive. But I'll say it again anyways .......

You can throw 100's of thousands at an area and with little interest in anyone volunteering it basically does nothing but get wasted, which we have experienced in the past in a few areas throughout the province. Especially when the local economic forces have caused closure of local services, like fuel, food and lodging. Sometimes an area has to go without for a while so people realize what they've lost, and hopefully those interested bring it back so they have it again. Which we're seeing happen right now in former D-16 and in 13 and 14.

It's easy to say just hire someone to take care of it, however we've seen that without local interest and passion in volunteering and ridership trails can't be maintained to standards needed, and not all local services can survive on tourism dollars only, they need some amount of day to day income year round to keep the doors open.

I think you misunderstood me. I'm not saying you go tell every club to cut thier trail system by 10% or something like that. But I'm sure there are some low use tails that aren't overly justified in keeping open.

The club here in the county has done just that over the last few years. They've dropped some trails that weren't overly used. And concentrate thier efforts on the more popular ones.

Now with the advent of computers. Maybe it's time the OFSC gives the option of splitting up your permit dollars a little more. You may ride 80% of the year in one area and trailer somewhere else the other 20%. So if we had that option to split and send 20% of that permit to another club it would mean a better buy where you ride system.

That's the problem I face here. On a single day I can easily ride 6 or 7 diffrent clubs in a 300km loop. So do I rotate my permit purchase every year between those 7? Normally no, because until the online system it was always easier to just go down the street and buy it.

[slomo]

 

 

 

You can throw 100's of thousands at an area and with little interest in anyone volunteering it basically does nothing but get wasted, which we have experienced in the past in a few areas throughout the province. Especially when the local economic forces have caused closure of local services, like fuel, food and lodging. Sometimes an area has to go without for a while so people realize what they've lost, and hopefully those interested bring it back so they have it again. Which we're seeing happen right now in former D-16 and in 13 and 14.

 

 

 

There is a certain logic to what you are maintaining here, but I can't help but thinking when I read it that in addition to the afore mentioned economic woes, there is also the effect of the warming spell in the southern Ontario trails, many of which were open for a number of days during the season, not weeks. Do you slice them off as well to help the more northerly clubs which are experiencing better conditions?

 

As the Opeongo Snowbirds say in their advertising, "if you're not buying your trail pass from us, you are paying to cut grass." (Barry's Bay open for most of the season, give or take some rain days as I recall - nothing to the south west of that area.)

[Nutter]

There is a certain logic to what you are maintaining here, but I can't help but thinking when I read it that in addition to the afore mentioned economic woes, there is also the effect of the warming spell in the southern Ontario trails, many of which were open for a number of days during the season, not weeks. Do you slice them off as well to help the more northerly clubs which are experiencing better conditions?

 

As the Opeongo Snowbirds say in their advertising, "if you're not buying your trail pass from us, you are paying to cut grass." (Barry's Bay open for most of the season, give or take some rain days as I recall - nothing to the south west of that area.)

 

If trails are not open and being groomed then that area is not receiving any funding, money allotted for them is diverted to areas that are open and grooming. It worked well last season, I don't know how well it will work if the whole province has a banner season and all trails are to be treated equally.  

[Big Pete]

Nutter, the situation you describe (banner season province wide) has already happened. The first year of FFC grooming hours exploded to a 10 year high. And while permit sales did increase in-season it was not enough to offset the increased operating costs. The net effect was that the Equalization Fund was approx $1.1 million short. Two things then happened. Because permit sales had exceeded forecasts there was a surplus of approx $600K in the Insurance/Groomer/OFSXC Programs category. This was used to partuially the offset the deficit. In order to balance the fund the "rates" used for Trails and Grooming standard costs were reduced by approx 20% to balance the fund. In effect everybody shared the pain equally in the banner year. 

 

In year 2 of FFC there was actually a surplus of approx $750K at the year end. Normally this would carry over to the following year to cover a shortfall like in year 1 but the BoG removed $500K from the Equalization Fund in support of the 16 groomers that were purchased last year. \dont have a particular problem with that but the lack of transparency with the membership is troubling.

 

 

For Last season, the Year End Report (included in AGM package) shows a surplus of $3.2 million in the Equalization Fund. Coming off a lousy season and the potential for lower permit sales and if you believe the early forecasts there is going to be lots of snow (and early). Kind of a double whammy, low revenues, high operating costs. But wait there should be $3.2 million in the Equalization Fund to cover that. The only problem is that the BoG has removed $2.5 million from the Equalization Fund at the July board meeting. And to make it worse, the funds were placed, not in the groomer replacement fund, but in general reserves so it can be spent at their pleasure on who knows what. Now, since the decision was taken, we have had a BoG Report (July), a MOTS Update, the AGM Package and a roadshow in every district. And not 1 word about the financial maneuvering of this BoG.  Ample opportunity to explain what they are doing but nothing. I have asked on 2 separate occasions for a copy of 2016-2017 OFSC Budget (which was approved by the BoG at the July meeting) but have been refused. Told it was not my business. 

 

Update on On-Line Permit Sales System: Asked our Gov at our District Board meeting as to the status of the on-line system. He had tried to get an update yesterday but was not able. So to the best of our knowledge the status has not changed: No working on-line permit sales system is available for October 1. 

[FreezerBurnt]

Because the local volunteers that build and and maintain them and local permit buyers want them there. Is it really a bad thing if local permit sales can and does support all those trails  ?

 

 

note both Dweese and 02 support closing trails that volounteers maintain for locals and also want everyone that has a sled to pay even if there is no trails near them and do not use the OFSC groomed trail experience

 

They don't ride there so let's close the trails that local permit buyers build and maintain

 

You have a sled but no trails, well you better pay so I can ride for cheaper on the trails I use

 

You just can't make this stuff up

 

without locals you have no trails plain and simple

[02Sled]

note both Dweese and 02 support closing trails that volounteers maintain for locals and also want everyone that has a sled to pay even if there is no trails near them and do not use the OFSC groomed trail experience

They don't ride there so let's close the trails that local permit buyers build and maintain

You have a sled but no trails, well you better pay so I can ride for cheaper on the trails I use

You just can't make this stuff up

without locals you have no trails plain and simple

You should be a politician... you can twist and manipulate things better than any politician I have ever met or heard of. What I do support is providing trails and maintaining those which are actually used regardless of where they are. A trail that sees 500 sleds a day should see a prioritization much higher than a trail that sees 5 riders a week. Common sense.

I I

Your illogic would see the high volume trail closed and the nearby trail see an increase from 500 sleds a day to 1000 sleds a day to preserve that one sled a day trail.

Ideally increased revenues would allow all of those trails to remain in place and groomed.

If you play hockey on a public rink.... or swim in a public pool say thank you for the tax dollars that come from all those people that don't use it that allow you access to them.

For someone who primarily rides NE of Winnipeg why the big concern over Ontario trail pass costs

[sledjunk]

Went to our presentation tonight.

 

As suspected, a club that stays incorporated will have to turn over all permit related monies and assets to the district.  All bills related to trails will be paid by district and no funds will be distributed to clubs as per the two levels of accountability for permit monies.

 

There will be a supplemental update available as early as this weekend to clarify some items.

 

Implementation schedule still is unclear.  The plan does have some good points, but I do not see where the additional wages for district staff and regional 'advisors' is going to result in 'More' on the snow.  Seems like taking responsibility from volunteers and passing it to paid staff.  I think the estimated $150K per year admin per district is going to be low.

 

Did not get to ask about the status of the online system as the meeting was somewhat hijacked by repetitive questions.

[Panther340]

If I were ever to take up trail riding on OFSC trails (I presently have all sorts of trails that are not OFSC so do not need).....but if I ever were  , and bought a better machine , I would want to use the local trails two up with my wife that get me to local points of interest. (that are "low risk of breakdown" on older machine owners) That would be the starting point of my ever jumping into the OFSC, and my in laws would be the same thinking.

However I can't see that ever happening if the typical OFSC member is like Dweese or O2 Sled. But I suspect that like anything there is the 80 20 rule , 80 percent are good apples with good intentions , and I suspect that applies to OFSC, so when I retire next year I will see how the warmer winters are effecting things, or whether an upgrade of my ATV to side by side (or ATV with tracks) is better way to spend my money. I suspect those that sell snowmachines are already seeing that swing in demographics over to ATV's and side by sides. That swing will effect OFSC directly especially if they count on further Government money to also include val tags money on what might be dwindling Snowmachine sales.   

[Bigfish]

Went to our presentation tonight.

 

As suspected, a club that stays incorporated will have to turn over all permit related monies and assets to the district.  All bills related to trails will be paid by district and no funds will be distributed to clubs as per the two levels of accountability for permit monies.

 

There will be a supplemental update available as early as this weekend to clarify some items.

 

Implementation schedule still is unclear.  The plan does have some good points, but I do not see where the additional wages for district staff and regional 'advisors' is going to result in 'More' on the snow.  Seems like taking responsibility from volunteers and passing it to paid staff.  I think the estimated $150K per year admin per district is going to be low.

 

Did not get to ask about the status of the online system as the meeting was somewhat hijacked by repetitive questions.

Sledjunk, just to clarify a club which stays incorporated will turn over to district any and all assets purchased with permit dollars. However any assets acquired by other means (fund raised, donated, etc) will continue to be held by the club, but can not be maintained by permit dollars.

X2 for the bold!

[Bigfish]

If I were ever to take up trail riding on OFSC trails (I presently have all sorts of trails that are not OFSC so do not need).....but if I ever were  , and bought a better machine , I would want to use the local trails two up with my wife that get me to local points of interest. (that are "low risk of breakdown" on older machine owners) That would be the starting point of my ever jumping into the OFSC, and my in laws would be the same thinking.

However I can't see that ever happening if the typical OFSC member is like Dweese or O2 Sled. But I suspect that like anything there is the 80 20 rule , 80 percent are good apples with good intentions , and I suspect that applies to OFSC, so when I retire next year I will see how the warmer winters are effecting things, or whether an upgrade of my ATV to side by side (or ATV with tracks) is better way to spend my money. I suspect those that sell snowmachines are already seeing that swing in demographics over to ATV's and side by sides. That swing will effect OFSC directly especially if they count on further Government money to also include val tags money on what might be dwindling Snowmachine sales.   

You make a good point regarding diminishing snowmobile sales.

Instead of whining for more government dollars, I would suggest that the people who stand to make the most from improved trails and hopefully an increase in sales are the manufacturers. Why are we not approaching them to provide some funding, that would seem to me to be a win-win situation

[sledjunk]

Sledjunk, just to clarify a club which stays incorporated will turn over to district any and all assets purchased with permit dollars. However any assets acquired by other means (fund raised, donated, etc) will continue to be held by the club, but can not be maintained by permit dollars.

X2 for the bold!

Yes, you are correct.

[dweese]

However I can't see that ever happening if the typical OFSC member is like Dweese or O2 Sled.

What did I ever do to you to deserve the disrespecting internet troll type attitude you seem to enjoy endlessly throwing around here.

Is it because I supported the idea of a linked val-tag system to support the provincial network of trails, that you don't agree with?

Just because someone has a diffrent option then you, doesn't make then an a$$hole, I don't belive you are a moron even though we have different options. I even agree with you that before the system goes after more government funds it needs to take a hard look at the way things are running.

But yet even with this, you still make 02 and myself out to be some kind of super jerks of the OFSC.

Why so angry dude?

You make a good point regarding diminishing snowmobile sales.

Instead of whining for more government dollars, I would suggest that the people who stand to make the most from improved trails and hopefully an increase in sales are the manufacturers. Why are we not approaching them to provide some funding, that would seem to me to be a win-win situation

We'll if you belive this, trail sleds aren't where the grow is. Mountain sleds are out sledding trail sleds and is a faster growth market.

http://www.snowmobile.com/features/snowmobile-sales-by-the-numbers

Panther made a good point about looking at 4 wheelers or side-by-sides over a new sled. With the reduced winters in Ontario, I couldn't see myself ever buying a new sled. Based on where I am how do I justify 12k+ on something that is so heavily depend on the weather.

[Panther340]

Not angry at all Dweese, but you two do seem to have decided I have a hate for the south (I don't, my Mom lives there and who doesn't love their Mom )and I supposedly drive a pollution spewing wreck of a vehicle, ( I don't, I drive a 2014 GMC 4 x4 and a 2012 Elantra) but maybe it's my 2008 diesel Kubota tractor that's spewing the pollution. Actually I suspect my Arctic Cat spews more pollution than all three combined.

And supposedly I and my neighbors are a drain on the south because the 10 percent of the population that occupies the 80% land area of the province somehow needs to apologize for having roads (and snow machine trails) that are not jammed full of traffic for your efficiency statistical needs to warrant having open. It's a good thing Canada Post and the Beer store still think I should pay the same as you two do, or else none would live up here where the beer is cold and the mail with the welfare cheques still gets thru (smile) and the snow machines can be used 4 months of the year still. But when the roads stop at Parry Sound and Powassen you can still call me and maybe I will run down by dog sled and find you a trail to run. ...........unless you plan on lobbying to have my Dog sled to have a validation tag too so you can get that money too! (smile)

[02Sled]

Not angry at all Dweese, but you two do seem to have decided I have a hate for the south (I don't, my Mom lives there and who doesn't love their Mom )and I supposedly drive a pollution spewing wreck of a vehicle, ( I don't, I drive a 2014 GMC 4 x4 and a 2012 Elantra) but maybe it's my 2008 diesel Kubota tractor that's spewing the pollution. Actually I suspect my Arctic Cat spews more pollution than all three combined.

And supposedly I and my neighbors are a drain on the south because the 10 percent of the population that occupies the 80% land area of the province somehow needs to apologize for having roads (and snow machine trails) that are not jammed full of traffic for your efficiency statistical needs to warrant having open. It's a good thing Canada Post and the Beer store still think I should pay the same as you two do, or else none would live up here where the beer is cold and the mail with the welfare cheques still gets thru (smile) and the snow machines can be used 4 months of the year still. But when the roads stop at Parry Sound and Powassen you can still call me and maybe I will run down by dog sled and find you a trail to run. ...........unless you plan on lobbying to have my Dog sled to have a validation tag too so you can get that money too! (smile)

It seems that you like to take a comment and stretch it to the extreme to suit your agenda.

Do vehicles in Northern Ontario get an exemption from emissions testing? Yes or No?

Is there a larger percentage of vehicles on the road in Northern Ontario that shouldn't be on the road than in Southern Ontario? Yes or No?

Does the val tag for a sled get issued at no charge for Northern Ontario? Yes or No?

Do vehicles get val tags at half price for Northern Ontario? Yes or No?

Do residents of Northern Ontario get an additional deduction on their income tax? Yes or No?

Are the services provided by the provincial government in Northern Ontario subsidized by all tax payers across the province? Yes or No?

The reality is yes yes yes. Just the way it is and I accept that. Unfortunately you seem to portray the people of the north, those that have lots of crown land to ride those snowmobiles on as hard done by. When it is suggested that the monies from the val tags (that you don't pay for anyway) be used to support the trail system that keeps many small town businesses alive in winter you seem to have a huge problem with that while I don't have a problem subsidizing the ice rinks, the pools and so many other things that I will never use but you may well use. Perhaps yes perhaps no.

Not once did I say that all the vehicles in Northern Ontario are all wrecks. Just that as you drive the roads you can see that there is a higher percentage of the vehicles on the roads that are in rough shape. There are indeed some very nice and high end vehicles as well. Family friends live in Nakina. I would love to have the new high end truck he has that he gets much more frequently than I can.

When you talk about all the riding that you can do without getting on an OFSC trail that delineates the conversation to a north south rationale since there are very few places you can ride a trail in "Southern Ontario" without being on someone's private property.

I don't dislike you or anyone here. We just have different views and opinions. Heck even my brother and I disagree on some things. Doesn't mean I don't like him

[Muskoka Man]

Dont think this thread will stop anytime soon

[02Sled]

Dont think this thread will stop anytime soon

After AGM and the vote to move forward or not and an understanding of the actual implications rather than speculative it will likely die down. Especially when the snow flies and we have better things to do and talk about.

[dweese]

Not angry at all Dweese, but you two do seem to have decided I have a hate for the south (I don't, my Mom lives there and who doesn't love their Mom )and I supposedly drive a pollution spewing wreck of a vehicle, ( I don't, I drive a 2014 GMC 4 x4 and a 2012 Elantra) but maybe it's my 2008 diesel Kubota tractor that's spewing the pollution. Actually I suspect my Arctic Cat spews more pollution than all three combined.

And supposedly I and my neighbors are a drain on the south because the 10 percent of the population that occupies the 80% land area of the province somehow needs to apologize for having roads (and snow machine trails) that are not jammed full of traffic for your efficiency statistical needs to warrant having open. It's a good thing Canada Post and the Beer store still think I should pay the same as you two do, or else none would live up here where the beer is cold and the mail with the welfare cheques still gets thru (smile) and the snow machines can be used 4 months of the year still. But when the roads stop at Parry Sound and Powassen you can still call me and maybe I will run down by dog sled and find you a trail to run. ...........unless you plan on lobbying to have my Dog sled to have a validation tag too so you can get that money too! (smile)

 

WOW you really know how to stretch something and twist it don't you.

 

And I'm sorry, but read your own posts, you constantly make it sound like we here in Southern Ontario go out of our way to steal everything we can from you and give you nothing in return.. News flash dude, I don't even live in the south. If you really want to start cutting this province up in to pieces, I'm in the east. And yes all my tax dollars get swallowed up by that vortex call the GTA as well just like yours as well.

 

So lighten up and relax a little, or I will go after a validation tag for your dog sled.   

[Bucking Pig]

I haven't weighed in here, because frankly, arguing here about Val-tags is stupid. Nobody here is likely the one to make those decisions, so it just creates bad feelings and doesn't really accomplish anything. So far, all this part of the discussion has done is hijacked the

thread. But then, it's gone off in so many directions anyway... I am opposed to Val tag fees going to the OFSC, I've made that clear before. Yes. My Val tag currently costs nothing, but I suspect that given the overhaul needed to facilitate this move, the government would likely change that, and I'd just as soon have that money in my pocket, thanks. I've got nothing against the OFSC, I put many volunteer hours into the organization in the past, but there aren't any trails nearby, and it's not what I'm into anymore. I use my sled for other things. And, a point of clarification to 02. The tax break for northern Ontario residents is only for folks living north of 50 degrees. They don't even have that many roads for the rest of us to subsidize.

Anyways, I do hope that the OFSC can come up with a sustainable model. As has been pointed out here by others far more knowledgeable than me, the current system does not work. District 16 is a view of the future, if things aren't turned around.

BP

[Claire Voyant]

After AGM and the vote to move forward or not and an understanding of the actual implications rather than speculative it will likely die down. Especially when the snow flies and we have better things to do and talk about.

 

People, people! What is happening to us? I seem to recall that last year at this time (1 week away from OFSC AGM) plans were being made for OC-ers to meet up at AGM. There was talk of get-togethers, hospitality suites, opportunities to meet new members and volunteers.

 

We all love to ride; we just can't seem to agree on the where/when/how. IMO, a snowmobiler is a snowmobiler is a snowmobiler. I agree with 02Sled: let's put this thread to bed and move on.

[Yukon]

People, people! What is happening to us? I seem to recall that last year at this time (1 week away from OFSC AGM) plans were being made for OC-ers to meet up at AGM. There was talk of get-togethers, hospitality suites, opportunities to meet new members and volunteers.

We all love to ride; we just can't seem to agree on the where/when/how. IMO, a snowmobiler is a snowmobiler is a snowmobiler. I agree with 02Sled: let's put this thread to bed and move on.

I heard Nutter has first round for everyone at the end of business!

[bbakernbay]

Any news on whether the Online Trail Permit Service Provider issue has been resolved yet?

[sledjunk]

Any news on whether the Online Trail Permit Service Provider issue has been resolved yet?

Good question.  With AGM next weekend, I certainly hope we get an answer to that question.

[Techdenis007]

Do vehicles in Northern Ontario get an exemption from emissions testing? Yes or No?

Is there a larger percentage of vehicles on the road in Northern Ontario that shouldn't be on the road than in Southern Ontario? Yes or No?

Does the val tag for a sled get issued at no charge for Northern Ontario? Yes or No?

Do vehicles get val tags at half price for Northern Ontario? Yes or No?

Do residents of Northern Ontario get an additional deduction on their income tax? Yes or No?

Are the services provided by the provincial government in Northern Ontario subsidized by all tax payers across the province? Yes or No?

 

 

Our sled valtags are free ?  Our vehicle valtags are half price ?  Didn't know that, we've been getting screwed for years then ......

 

Northern Ontario residents get a tax break ?  Not us, only the ones WAY up there.  I'm at the northern-most point of the TCH 11 in Ontario, we don't get a tax break.  That applies to people living beyond roads, example Moosonee, etc.  

 

May be some truth there to those statements, you may have done more research than me, but I call BS on the valtags line .... until I see otherwise from the MTO website.

[donkey]

https://www.ontario.ca/page/renew-licence-plate-sticker

 

half price for cars, free for sleds. 

 

http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/tx/ndvdls/tpcs/ncm-tx/rtrn/cmpltng/ddctns/lns248-260/255/prvncs/on-eng.html

 

places in Ontario you can get money off your taxes.  lots of sledders up there I'm sure eh 02sled?