Panther340 Posted August 11, 2016 Share Posted August 11, 2016 lets get back to the assertion that the people that own snowmachines that are not part of the "organized snowmobilers" (OFSC) are too small a group for even the Government to be concerned with if Valtags were raised to support OFSC, (or even worse raised substantially to even include the trail pass) Well as Skidooboy stated earlier, Snowmobiling for a long time was unorganized fun and utility type use. It managed fine and still does in a good portion of Ontario , and many a tagged machine in back yards and garages and barns has NEVER seen a OFSC trail nor ever needs to. The audacity of any firm (for example OFSC) to ever assume they can speak for those non organized owners is just plain ludicrous. OFSC and it members would be much wiser to make sure they do not alienate whole swaths of the population that may or may not ever chose to take up organized snowmobiling . Those are potential customers of the more elite sport of OFSC trail riding. But considering what I see now how the OFSC seems to be alienating their own volunteers , by ramming proposals down their throats that belittle the true volunteer impact on the sport........I suspect the OFSC will continue down the road of cutting off their nose to save their face. I feel for the OFSC volunteer members because they are the roots of their organization, and without them the paid elite in Barrie or wherever headoffice is will slowly crumble as they will have no option but to go seek more government money to support the elite sport. But with more Gov money comes more red tape that chokes further the volunteer passion for the sport. For awhile in the past I pictured taking up trail riding when I retired and helping with trails with the equipment I have...but I can't see that happening anymore, the OFSC has execs have become to big for their britches and not the best looking place to volunteer and have fun doing it. Just an outsiders humble opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skidooboy Posted August 11, 2016 Share Posted August 11, 2016 Here you go... The "More on the snow" is a bad idea for organized snowmobiling. What will happen? The OFSC will give little by little more information about implementing this. Some snowmobilers are already tired to fight against this. Most likely this will pass at the Agm without problems. Then the OFSC start implementing this and in a lot of clubs the core volunteers will step down. It will come to the point that the OFSC will own all the assets, the trails and that the clubs are the volunteer workers for the OFSC. Also the OFSC will close at least 25% of the trails and the clubs can do nothing against it.... As I said earlier, MOST will pass with between 65-80% majority. So that means we need to work with MOST or are we rebelling and give the District not only the assets but we resign as volunteer? I like to compare this with a person who is suiside them self. Is he selfish by doing this and not to think about the friends and family left without him or he has the right to do this? Resigning as volunteer is the same, the OFSC is coming with MOST and I don't believe in this so f*ck the OFSC and the snowmobilers I quit. Why not the opposite positive attitude, let's help the district as much as possible to help the district going the transformation as smooth as possible and let's have the best trails for all snowmobilers this season? I agree with you for 100%, if the existing volunteers don't want yo help the Districts to run this smooth, there is a change that it fails at that District and the non supporting volunteers are also responsible for the failure and having not well groomed and maintained trails for all snowmobilers at that District. WOW! from the ofsc is ramming this down our throats, and it is the ofsc and bog's fault for the failures, to... it is the volunteers fault for the current, AND future failures. and comparing volunteers to suicidal people. makes one think, HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM... Ski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skidooboy Posted August 11, 2016 Share Posted August 11, 2016 what i think people need to understand is the system is beyond the ability of being ran, and held up, and to further grow, with a volunteer only base. at some point, it will have to be treated as a business, industry, with real jobs and wages AT ALL LEVELS. this will mean more govt involvement, and higher fees for all. but, it is something that needs to be looked at. we cant continue with volunteers only, it is just not sustainable. you don't ask someone to help roof YOUR HOUSE, then TELL THEM, when they are finished with the roof, they need to put siding on the house, mow the lawn, and pay for their own travel, and food... then when your "volunteer" tells you I am sorry but, I have other commitments, and cant help you right now.... THEN, YOU BLAME THEM FOR YOUR PROJECT FAILURE. volunteers are just that... they offered to help, let me say it again... THEY OFFERED TO HELP... not to do EVERYTHING, FOREVER. it is a privilege to have someone help, NOT A RIGHT. and I think this was lost on some people within organized snowmobiling A LOOOOONG TIME AGO. Ski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viperules700 Posted August 11, 2016 Share Posted August 11, 2016 Well put ski. I always thought the government should put in more dollars to the system. They benefit most from snowmobilers. Tourist network of trails should be treated like a provincial highway, paid people to maintain it, Patrol it, sign it etc. If it means paying 300 for a permit, then that is ok with me. Don't charge us more, so the money van go to those so called mangers. I bet we have more dedicated people in system already, that would do an fanstistic job with less pay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greggie Posted August 11, 2016 Author Share Posted August 11, 2016 You are an ass . I am not even close to being interested in being King. This is not about me but if it makes you feel better to come after me go ahead. What I am pointing out is the groundswell of folks that feel that this is being shoved down our throats without costing or even close to a full explanation. I have supported organized snowmobiling for over 32 years and to some degree will continue to.Do not worry about me but instead be concerned if the ground swell that I am hearing walks away then you have a problem. Haha, thi King must be thinking....it's called auto correct, sorry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
02Sled Posted August 11, 2016 Share Posted August 11, 2016 Haha, thi King must be thinking....it's called auto correct, sorry I hate auto correct, some of the things I have sent my wife have been "strange " thanks to it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mczed38 Posted August 11, 2016 Share Posted August 11, 2016 Maintaining an interconnected network of 30000km of trails, totally dependent on the climate, founded on the principal of "many hands make light work" and "neighbor helping neighbor" providing users with a safe and consistently high quality riding experience, without some sort of centralized management system, and paid management personnel to be held accountable for said system. All the while maintaining healthy relationships with private landowners and volunteers without whom the system will no longer exist. In other words a paradox. ""a statement or proposition that, despite sound (or apparently sound) reasoning from acceptable premises, leads to a conclusion that seems senseless, logically unacceptable, or self-contradictory."" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nutter Posted August 12, 2016 Share Posted August 12, 2016 Some food for thought ..... A provincially interconnected trail system that like minded people volunteer to build and maintain and charge a cost covering fee to themselves and others to ride. That came to life over 40 years ago. With people at the time riding 5-10hp sled and trails being groomed with the same sleds pulling bed springs and homemade drags 30-48 inches wide and if lucky could groom 10-20km in 10 hours depending on terrain and snow conditions. Heck on a good day if one was lucky they could squeeze out a ride to neighbouring club and maybe put in a 50 mile day. Fast forward to the last 15-20 years we are now riding 100-150hp sleds and grooming with industrial equip capable of grooming a 10ft wide swath. On a good day now a days a rider can travel 200-300kms in a day, and an industrial groomer can cover 70-100 km of trail in 10 hours depending on terrain and snow conditions. So ask yourself are we trying to support keeping things the way they were, with small clubs working autonomously because thats the way we've always done it ? Or should we be further supporting moving forward towards working as one because we've outgrown the way we have been doing things, with clubs a stone throw away from each other working autonomously ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gator Posted August 12, 2016 Share Posted August 12, 2016 Some food for thought ..... A provincially interconnected trail system that like minded people volunteer to build and maintain and charge a cost covering fee to themselves and others to ride. That came to life over 40 years ago. With people at the time riding 5-10hp sled and trails being groomed with the same sleds pulling bed springs and homemade drags 30-48 inches wide and if lucky could groom 10-20km in 10 hours depending on terrain and snow conditions. Heck on a good day if one was lucky they could squeeze out a ride to neighbouring club and maybe put in a 50 mile day. Fast forward to the last 15-20 years we are now riding 100-150hp sleds and grooming with industrial equip capable of grooming a 10ft wide swath. On a good day now a days a rider can travel 200-300kms in a day, and an industrial groomer can cover 70-100 km of trail in 10 hours depending on terrain and snow conditions. So ask yourself are we trying to support keeping things the way they were, with small clubs working autonomously because thats the way we've always done it ? Or should we be further supporting moving forward towards working as one because we've outgrown the way we have been doing things, with clubs a stone throw away from each other working autonomously ? I am against MOTS as it has been presented. That does not mean that I am against change; but there has to be a good plan in place backed up by lots of good data that supports the direction proposed by the plan. That is completely lacking in MOTS as presented by the OFSC. The OFSC could not plan itself out of a wet paper bag with a big tear in it. Bigger (as in amalgamating districts and having districts responsible for all aspects of snowmobiling) is not necessarily better. It is too easy to forget why you are there (good local trails and local support) in a bigger organization. Many amalgamated municipalities are now looking at leaving the larger organization as local issues are not being addressed. Lets make sure that we do not throw out the baby with the bath water. The OFSC must present the members with a detailed plan with sufficient financial and organizational data to support their proposal and it must have a realistic implementation schedule. Only with full information can the members make a proper educated decision. Without it we are rolling the dice and hoping that things work out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sledjunk Posted August 12, 2016 Share Posted August 12, 2016 I am against MOTS as it has been presented. That does not mean that I am against change; but there has to be a good plan in place backed up by lots of good data that supports the direction proposed by the plan. That is completely lacking in MOTS as presented by the OFSC. The OFSC could not plan itself out of a wet paper bag with a big tear in it. Bigger (as in amalgamating districts and having districts responsible for all aspects of snowmobiling) is not necessarily better. It is too easy to forget why you are there (good local trails and local support) in a bigger organization. Many amalgamated municipalities are now looking at leaving the larger organization as local issues are not being addressed. Lets make sure that we do not throw out the baby with the bath water. The OFSC must present the members with a detailed plan with sufficient financial and organizational data to support their proposal and it must have a realistic implementation schedule. Only with full information can the members make a proper educated decision. Without it we are rolling the dice and hoping that things work out. Well said! I too realize that we need to make some changes, but I do not see any proof that MOTS is the right answer. Add to that the fact that the scope of the changes has increased exponentially since last year's AGM and the implementation is rushed and in the, arguably, busiest time of the year for the clubs. As I see it, there are a number of items that are not detailed or even mentioned in the proposal, such as the costs for interested clubs to unincorporate and become chapters and how the working relationship between incorporated clubs and the district will work. Going to be an interesting AGM, but I truly hope that MOTS, as proposed, is voted down as I do not feel it is well thought out or complete. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbakernbay Posted August 12, 2016 Share Posted August 12, 2016 I totally agree with sledjunk and gator, perfectly stated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FreezerBurnt Posted August 14, 2016 Share Posted August 14, 2016 How about the $50M for the Tesla charging systems. A very small percentage will use them and its ALL the Tax payers footing the bill. The Tesla owner gets a vehicle rebate and also pays NO road tax. The Val tag should include the permit. If you own a sled everyone pays. Don't ride on any OFSC trails so be it. My car Val tag pays for plenty of things I will never use. Your car is provincial responsibility and taxes pay for the infrastructure The OFSC is a USER pay system for people who want the groomed trail experience, it is not a government run program You use it you pay You don't use it you don't pay NOT really rocket science Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manotickmike Posted August 14, 2016 Share Posted August 14, 2016 Oh, if that only applied to all the crap I'll never use, and still pay for... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FreezerBurnt Posted August 14, 2016 Share Posted August 14, 2016 I always thought a monthly payment system over say 6 months, would help people purchase permits when price goes up. Make deadline sept 30 and only available to people that purchase by the deadline. Those pie charts ofsc use to give out, helped abit, but most people thru them away. Here your permit cost comes out as monthly payments Dec,Jan,Feb,March if you wish through your insurance just like sled insurance or you pay the $150 in one pop Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FreezerBurnt Posted August 14, 2016 Share Posted August 14, 2016 what i think people need to understand is the system is beyond the ability of being ran, and held up, and to further grow, with a volunteer only base. at some point, it will have to be treated as a business, industry, with real jobs and wages AT ALL LEVELS. this will mean more govt involvement, and higher fees for all. but, it is something that needs to be looked at. we cant continue with volunteers only, it is just not sustainable. you don't ask someone to help roof YOUR HOUSE, then TELL THEM, when they are finished with the roof, they need to put siding on the house, mow the lawn, and pay for their own travel, and food... then when your "volunteer" tells you I am sorry but, I have other commitments, and cant help you right now.... THEN, YOU BLAME THEM FOR YOUR PROJECT FAILURE. volunteers are just that... they offered to help, let me say it again... THEY OFFERED TO HELP... not to do EVERYTHING, FOREVER. it is a privilege to have someone help, NOT A RIGHT. and I think this was lost on some people within organized snowmobiling A LOOOOONG TIME AGO. Ski Well said actually fantastically said Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FreezerBurnt Posted August 14, 2016 Share Posted August 14, 2016 Oh, if that only applied to all the crap I'll never use, and still pay for... Was the OFSC created user pay system or not? Government does NOT run the OFSC. What do you have to pay for that you do not use that has nothing to do with government? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sledjunk Posted August 14, 2016 Share Posted August 14, 2016 Government does NOT run the OFSC. True, but technically the OFSC and its clubs are government funded, hence the additional stipulations under the new NFP legislation and the are listed reason why OFSC and their employees are subject to being included on the Sunshine List. http://www.sunshinelist.ca/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soupkids Posted August 14, 2016 Share Posted August 14, 2016 We can debate all we want on MOTS, its up to the respective clubs at the AGM to vote yes or no. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbakernbay Posted August 14, 2016 Share Posted August 14, 2016 The Districts are soon scheduled to receive a presentation and ask questions about concerns that they have. Presumably there may be some valid points raised in these various District Discussion Groups that may result in some revisions before the AGM. I think there are sufficient concerns that will merit some modifications that will result in a majority vote of support at AGM. I think a positive vote is needed to keep things moving ahead or else the Board of Governors, the OFSC, the Districts and Member Clubs are in a tough spot. Change is needed but the Clubs need to have their valid concerns listened to and dealt with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildman Posted August 16, 2016 Share Posted August 16, 2016 Greggie your bully attitude has worn very thin with me. Instead of abusing those who decide that this is not their cup of tea and instead decide to ride if your group gets your way a better attitude would be to thank them for their service and make them feel welcome back in the future .and he was the one making the biggest stink about MOTS from the get go........unbelievable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skidooboy Posted August 16, 2016 Share Posted August 16, 2016 and he was the one making the biggest stink about MOTS from the get go........unbelievable. exactly! Ski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildbill Posted August 16, 2016 Share Posted August 16, 2016 and he was the one making the biggest stink about MOTS from the get go........unbelievable. The program has changed drastically since it was brought forward last year Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbakernbay Posted August 16, 2016 Share Posted August 16, 2016 The program has changed drastically since it was brought forward last year For the Better in your opinion Bill? Sufficiently improved to give it a Thumbs Up? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
02Sled Posted August 16, 2016 Share Posted August 16, 2016 Your car is provincial responsibility and taxes pay for the infrastructure The OFSC is a USER pay system for people who want the groomed trail experience, it is not a government run program You use it you pay You don't use it you don't pay NOT really rocket science The Trail Permit is a Ministry of Transportation issued permit so that does make it government program. Any changes to the price of the permit have to be approved by the Ministry. We also have the Trent Severn Waterway and Rideau Canals as a parallel example. They are heavily subsidized by tax $'s and Part of Parks Canada. Every Canadian, not just those in Ontario pays for them and users pay a small portion of their operating cost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbakernbay Posted August 16, 2016 Share Posted August 16, 2016 The main problem is that those examples of roads, canals, etc. have always been done that way. Changing something is always much more difficult so comparisons, although probably valid, are not that persuasive to those in government. It will be interesting to hear the reactions to the Road Show from those attending. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.