02Sled Posted August 10, 2016 Share Posted August 10, 2016 I always thought a monthly payment system over say 6 months, would help people purchase permits when price goes up. Make deadline sept 30 and only available to people that purchase by the deadline. Those pie charts ofsc use to give out, helped abit, but most people thru them away. If I read your intent right someone could buy a $180 permit with automated credit card charges of $30 per month beginning in April 2017 and the final payment of $30 in September 2017 and the permit shipped in October 2017. If that is the case I see it as an excellent tool for some since the $30 a month doesn't hurt the same as coming up with the $180 lump sum. For some it is even just a lump sum perception even if they can afford it. I was into Service Ontario today to renew the registration for our two vehicles, two sleds and my drivers license. Left there with a $573.50 hit to my Visa card. Psychologically it hurt when I think I get four little stickers for all of that but you want to drive / play you gotta pay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
02Sled Posted August 10, 2016 Share Posted August 10, 2016 what your missing is, signing, brushing, and inspection IS A JOB, ESPECIALLY WHEN YOU ARE TALKING A SMALL CLUB, WITH OVER 400 KMS OF TRAILS to watch over. the whole process is a job. and a BIG ONE AT THAT! IF YOU THINK GROOMING IS THE MOST IMPORTANT HARDEST JOB, AND THE ONLY ONE THAT DESERVES A WAGE, YOU'VE GOT YOUR HEAD IN THE SAND. and just like always, when someone disagrees with you, you resort to personal attacks. "you sound like one of those". NICE! yeah, and I keep forgetting, your way is the ONLY WAY, because your the all knowing one. guess, I am going to have to block your posts because, you only see YOUR side of any argument. nice to have the feature on this forum. Ski So you're entitled to express your opinion and I'm not allowed to express my opinion. Got it. Look at what you just posted. In the online world all uppercase is yelling. Personal attack... you have got to be kidding. I simply interpreted your comment about trails and clubs existing before the OFSC and they will continue after the OFSC as sounding like the type of comment that would come from someone who believes that what worked in the long ago past would still work in today's very different world. Sorry if you take that as derogatory. Just my perception of what you believe based on what you post. The words "sound like" imply exactly that... it is my perception. Your further comment of me being the all knowing one seems odd. You make a comment that I disagree with and I'm apparently not allowed to disagree with you and post a rebuttal but you are allowed to disagree with me and tell me that my comments don't hold water because. Sure sounds like you want it your way and nobody should have a different opinion. I respect your right to your opinion and you should respect my right to my opinion. A dialogue expressing varying points of view and you appear to have a problem with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skidooboy Posted August 10, 2016 Share Posted August 10, 2016 yes, caps can mean yelling BUT, caps can also be used to emphasize a statement. welcome to the internet. as far as expressing opinion... I have no problem with that, what I have a problem with is EVERYTIME, someone doesn't agree with YOU, you resort to some sort of jab, personal attack, or belittling someone because, YOU BELEIVE, you are the only one that can have an opinion, without being an idiot. if you go back and read my post, it says, going to be tough and a learning curve, and some clubs wont like it, or make it. there is NOTHING WRONG with that assumption. obviously you don't like me personally. and I dont like your holier than thou attitude. we should probably just avoid one another. Ski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
02Sled Posted August 10, 2016 Share Posted August 10, 2016 yes, caps can mean yelling BUT, caps can also be used to emphasize a statement. welcome to the internet. as far as expressing opinion... I have no problem with that, what I have a problem with is EVERYTIME, someone doesn't agree with YOU, you resort to some sort of jab, personal attack, or belittling someone because, YOU BELEIVE, you are the only one that can have an opinion, without being an idiot. if you go back and read my post, it says, going to be tough and a learning curve, and some clubs wont like it, or make it. there is NOTHING WRONG with that assumption. obviously you don't like me personally. and I dont like your holier than thou attitude. we should probably just avoid one another. Ski Personally I have nothing against you or anyone else here. If you took my comment that you seemed to believe what worked years ago can still work today that I made regarding your comment of snowmobiling and trails being around long before the OFSC and will be long after as a jab, sorry about that. Not a jab. Just as you have your perception of others based on online comments I have mine. Doesn't mean you or anyone else are bad people in any way. Just differing opinions. In university they teach debating which I liken to the dialogues here at times. Just an exchange of opinions. Everyone has their opinions and that is part of what makes us all different and makes for good debate and out of good debate comes new thought. There are changes I don't think will work well and others I think will work quite well and there are lots of other people with their own opinions which are also all different. It would be a real dull and boring world if everyone thought exactly the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greggie Posted August 10, 2016 Author Share Posted August 10, 2016 Believe it, KCC is correct. Only HCSA pays operators in D6. And I might add our volunteer operators provide some of the best riding in Ontario. You are right, in 2014-2015, district 6 had 7658 grooming hours and the total grooming wages was $28404. The total grooming hours of all districts was 97573 and the total groomer wages was $1,179,168. That is $12 average... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greggie Posted August 10, 2016 Author Share Posted August 10, 2016 As I said earlier, MOST will pass with between 65-80% majority. So that means we need to work with MOST or are we rebelling and give the District not only the assets but we resign as volunteer? I like to compare this with a person who is suiside them self. Is he selfish by doing this and not to think about the friends and family left without him or he has the right to do this? Resigning as volunteer is the same, the OFSC is coming with MOST and I don't believe in this so f*ck the OFSC and the snowmobilers I quit. Why not the opposite positive attitude, let's help the district as much as possible to help the district going the transformation as smooth as possible and let's have the best trails for all snowmobilers this season? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
02Sled Posted August 10, 2016 Share Posted August 10, 2016 As I said earlier, MOST will pass with between 65-80% majority. So that means we need to work with MOST or are we rebelling and give the District not only the assets but we resign as volunteer? I like to compare this with a person who is suiside them self. Is he selfish by doing this and not to think about the friends and family left without him or he has the right to do this? Resigning as volunteer is the same, the OFSC is coming with MOST and I don't believe in this so f*ck the OFSC and the snowmobilers I quit. Why not the opposite positive attitude, let's help the district as much as possible to help the district going the transformation as smooth as possible and let's have the best trails for all snowmobilers this season? Exactly as it should be. Great approach. You may not agree with everything but make the best of it you possibly can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greggie Posted August 10, 2016 Author Share Posted August 10, 2016 Exactly as it should be. Great approach. You may not agree with everything but make the best of it you possibly can. I agree with you for 100%, if the existing volunteers don't want yo help the Districts to run this smooth, there is a change that it fails at that District and the non supporting volunteers are also responsible for the failure and having not well groomed and maintained trails for all snowmobilers at that District. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sledjunk Posted August 10, 2016 Share Posted August 10, 2016 The difference is that the majority of sledders do not volunteer and do not worry about the BS. This is not a job and if I decide to join the majority, it is my decision and my business and I will find somewhere to ride, even if it is in Quebec. I would feel bad for leaving the district and the OFSC twisting in the wind because I have served my time and am fed up with the take it or leave it attitude so prevalent from the OFSC and BOG. I just might leave it!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gator Posted August 10, 2016 Share Posted August 10, 2016 As I said earlier, MOST will pass with between 65-80% majority. So that means we need to work with MOST or are we rebelling and give the District not only the assets but we resign as volunteer? I like to compare this with a person who is suiside them self. Is he selfish by doing this and not to think about the friends and family left without him or he has the right to do this? Resigning as volunteer is the same, the OFSC is coming with MOST and I don't believe in this so f*ck the OFSC and the snowmobilers I quit. Why not the opposite positive attitude, let's help the district as much as possible to help the district going the transformation as smooth as possible and let's have the best trails for all snowmobilers this season? What a terrible erroneous comparison. It ain't over yet and when it is and if MOTS passes it is completely up to the volunteer if they want to continue or not and it is certainly not selfish for them to decide they cannot work in such an environment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbakernbay Posted August 10, 2016 Share Posted August 10, 2016 While I certainly agree with Greggie's positive approach, I still think the Clubs and Districts need some answers before the AGM. By this I mean particularly the financial implications of how the extra costs are going to be funded and what process is there for returning Club funds to the District which hasn't been discussed much in this forum. I think we are all agreed that changes need to be made but this is a major, major change in the way business is done and the season is fast approaching. I am surprised that Greggie feels there is a projected 65-80% majority at this point but he has a better feel for the District's opinions than I do. I am concerned that this change must work or else the implications are pretty dire, let's get it right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PISTON LAKE CRUISER Posted August 10, 2016 Share Posted August 10, 2016 I agree with you for 100%, if the existing volunteers don't want yo help the Districts to run this smooth, there is a change that it fails at that District and the non supporting volunteers are also responsible for the failure and having not well groomed and maintained trails for all snowmobilers at that District. So it will now be the "existing" volunteer's fault if most doesn't work? The people who in most cases have worked extremely hard FOR THEIR CLUBS, ASSOCIATIONS & DISTRICT. You've been drinking the kool aid too much! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Pete Posted August 10, 2016 Share Posted August 10, 2016 The arguments, both pro and con, have been presented quite well in this and many other forums. Its to the point for me that it is time to vote. Let the membership decide and move on. The final question I will ask is, "If MOTS kills as many clubs as it saves, why is it the only solution on the table? And why is it better than what we have now? I agree with you for 100%, if the existing volunteers don't want yo help the Districts to run this smooth, there is a change that it fails at that District and the non supporting volunteers are also responsible for the failure and having not well groomed and maintained trails for all snowmobilers at that District. Greg, I resent your assertion that if MOTS passes and I decide that I would rather just ride rather than volunteer and the club/district fails it is somehow my fault. If you want to force a solution on me, then its your fault for not listening and addressing my concerns. You made the bed. You sleep in it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greggie Posted August 10, 2016 Author Share Posted August 10, 2016 What a terrible erroneous comparison. It ain't over yet and when it is and if MOTS passes it is completely up to the volunteer if they want to continue or not and it is certainly not selfish for them to decide they cannot work in such an environment. So if MOTS pass, that means that the majority vote for it, I understand your opinion but I don't agree with it. In real life, it's mostly work together with all people you have to. You can only choose your friends and your partner in life. You can't choose your kids, family and so on but you need to work all together. If MOTS pass, it can be not your choice but if every one quit who don't Like MOTS, you make it hard to make it a success for the districts, clubs and snowmobilers... Just my opinion... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildbill Posted August 11, 2016 Share Posted August 11, 2016 Greggie your bully attitude has worn very thin with me. Instead of abusing those who decide that this is not their cup of tea and instead decide to ride if your group gets your way a better attitude would be to thank them for their service and make them feel welcome back in the future . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greggie Posted August 11, 2016 Author Share Posted August 11, 2016 While I certainly agree with Greggie's positive approach, I still think the Clubs and Districts need some answers before the AGM. By this I mean particularly the financial implications of how the extra costs are going to be funded and what process is there for returning Club funds to the District which hasn't been discussed much in this forum. I think we are all agreed that changes need to be made but this is a major, major change in the way business is done and the season is fast approaching. I am surprised that Greggie feels there is a projected 65-80% majority at this point but he has a better feel for the District's opinions than I do. I am concerned that this change must work or else the implications are pretty dire, let's get it right. Brian, If we don't like MOTS and its doesn't pass, it's time for the BOG and some employees of the OFSC to retire. This sounds very harsh but I think it's true. I think it will pass easy. Do we need change? It's all from what point are you looking at snowmobiling. There are lots of clubs who do a good job but there are also clubs who doesn't. From the snowmobilers view, we need to get our crap together and get more consistent groomed and signed trails. This will never happen in our "old" system. Another weak point of our existing system is that most likely there are clubs folding because jack of volunteers. That means that other clubs must pickup trails to keep the network going, what will be not easy. In MOTS, we will get more consistent groomed and signed trIls what will help to increase permit sales. Extra cost? I think we will save money by less groomers, so less amortization and mIntenance costs. If you compare clubs and districts, you see very big difference how they are spending the money, such as groomer fuel for every grooming hour, groomer maintenance, admin cost and trail maintenance. As I said earlier, some clubs are running very inefficient. How all the transfers of assets to the district will go will change by district. I guarantee that there will be clubs who don't want to give the assets to the district. How to deal with this, will be a tough case... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildbill Posted August 11, 2016 Share Posted August 11, 2016 Brian, If we don't like MOTS and its doesn't pass, it's time for the BOG and some employees of the OFSC to retire. This sounds very harsh but I think it's true. I think it will pass easy. Do we need change? It's all from what point are you looking at snowmobiling. There are lots of clubs who do a good job but there are also clubs who doesn't. From the snowmobilers view, we need to get our crap together and get more consistent groomed and signed trails. This will never happen in our "old" system. Another weak point of our existing system is that most likely there are clubs folding because jack of volunteers. That means that other clubs must pickup trails to keep the network going, what will be not easy. In MOTS, we will get more consistent groomed and signed trIls what will help to increase permit sales. Extra cost? I think we will save money by less groomers, so less amortization and mIntenance costs. If you compare clubs and districts, you see very big difference how they are spending the money, such as groomer fuel for every grooming hour, groomer maintenance, admin cost and trail maintenance. As I said earlier, some clubs are running very inefficient. How all the transfers of assets to the district will go will change by district. I guarantee that there will be clubs who don't want to give the assets to the district. How to deal with this, will be a tough case... What if it makes the good clubs voluntolds leave? That is how communism generally works out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greggie Posted August 11, 2016 Author Share Posted August 11, 2016 Greggie your bully attitude has worn very thin with me. Instead of abusing those who decide that this is not their cup of tea and instead decide to ride if your group gets your way a better attitude would be to thank them for their service and make them feel welcome back in the future .Windbill,I don't try to bully but we need to works and make the best from the results of this Agm if you agree with MOTS or not, sorry I can't change it but if we want to support snowmobiling, we need to do that in good and bad days otherwise organized snowmobiling will be tough to keep it going in Ontario. We have lots of clubs and we can't make and keep everything happy.... I understand that there is a time to resign as volunteer but it's better to do this when organized snowmobiling is going great instead when it's hard to keep it going. Don't say this to feel you guilty or to bully you but quoting volunteers need to think about the impact if this happen.... I think the OFSC is working on MOTS since Brenda Welsch was president.... Some times it was on the shelf, other times it was actual. Windbill, you need to do what you think is good for you and good for organized snowmobiling. I understand that in some situations, thinking about you is more important then thinking about snowmobiling. I hope that I didn't hurt your feeling, that is for sure not my goal but I like to see that if MOTS pass, we give it a change..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greggie Posted August 11, 2016 Author Share Posted August 11, 2016 Greg, I resent your assertion that if MOTS passes and I decide that I would rather just ride rather than volunteer and the club/district fails it is somehow my fault. If you want to force a solution on me, then its your fault for not listening and addressing my concerns. You made the bed. You sleep in it. Pete, As OFSC we can make all clubs and volunteers happy in the past and in the future. We need to go with what pass the Agm at the OFSC. I understand your opinion but that means for example if it pass with 60% and the other 40% are resigning, how can we keep organized snowmobiling going? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greggie Posted August 11, 2016 Author Share Posted August 11, 2016 Have opened my mouth enough, told your guys my opinion and have no problem to answer questions but will give this subject back to your guys and keep quiet for a while.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
02Sled Posted August 11, 2016 Share Posted August 11, 2016 If someone gives you a bowl of lemons make lemonade is a phrase that comes to mind. If the changes come into effect and there are some you aren't sure of how about giving it a try to see if it works. Maybe a bit of tweaking will be needed and you find it's pretty good as a process after all. Still not working for you then say goodbye but at least give it a chance first Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildbill Posted August 11, 2016 Share Posted August 11, 2016 Windbill, I don't try to bully but we need to works and make the best from the results of this Agm if you agree with MOTS or not, sorry I can't change it but if we want to support snowmobiling, we need to do that in good and bad days otherwise organized snowmobiling will be tough to keep it going in Ontario. We have lots of clubs and we can't make and keep everything happy.... I understand that there is a time to resign as volunteer but it's better to do this when organized snowmobiling is going great instead when it's hard to keep it going. Don't say this to feel you guilty or to bully you but quoting volunteers need to think about the impact if this happen.... I think the OFSC is working on MOTS since Brenda Welsch was president.... Some times it was on the shelf, other times it was actual. Windbill, you need to do what you think is good for you and good for organized snowmobiling. I understand that in some situations, thi King about you is more important then thinking about snowmobiling. I hope that I didn't hurt your feeling, that is for sure not my goal but I like to see that if MOTS pass, we give it a change..... You are an ass . I am not even close to being interested in being King. This is not about me but if it makes you feel better to come after me go ahead. What I am pointing out is the groundswell of folks that feel that this is being shoved down our throats without costing or even close to a full explanation. I have supported organized snowmobiling for over 32 years and to some degree will continue to.Do not worry about me but instead be concerned if the ground swell that I am hearing walks away then you have a problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildbill Posted August 11, 2016 Share Posted August 11, 2016 If someone gives you a bowl of lemons make lemonade is a phrase that comes to mind. If the changes come into effect and there are some you aren't sure of how about giving it a try to see if it works. Maybe a bit of tweaking will be needed and you find it's pretty good as a process after all. Still not working for you then say goodbye but at least give it a chance first It will be an individual decision for all volunteers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
02Sled Posted August 11, 2016 Share Posted August 11, 2016 It will be an individual decision for all volunteers Absolutely! If it goes through I am willing to stay the course for a while in the hope it works out well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildbill Posted August 11, 2016 Share Posted August 11, 2016 Absolutely! If it goes through I am willing to stay the course for a while in the hope it works out well. Good for you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.