Recommendations for Club Work Sleds for Packing Swamps & Towing 6' Drag

[bbakernbay]

We are considering whether to purchase a Club work sled which would have the flotation to pack swamps in the start of the season and also to pull a 6' drag, like a Mini Mogul Master.

Several options out there including:

Skidoo Skandic WT (20") or SWT (24") with 600 ACE and 900 ACE. Dealer says SWT are really difficult to turn and suitable mostly for Hydro One and MNR

Arctic Cat Bearcat Groomer Special with accompanying drag.

Polaris VK or Widetrack 550 LX

I would like to hear from those that have operating experience with various models.

Do all tracks now come with ability to screw in small picks as Skidoo does and a neighboring Club is doing it themselves although they had dealer install tunnel protector as the track needs to be dropped for that install.

What type of hitch is preferred, gooseneck, pintle or a swivel or fixed 2" bar?

Any suggestions or recommendations are welcomed.

[slomo]

As per your BRP options, this forum (skandic/expedition) on Dootalk is very knowledgeable about the 600 and 900 Ace and the machines you mentioned. Many are trappers and gatherers in northern climes so could address your maneuverability and other such questions:

 

http://www.dootalk.com/forums/forum/92-skandic-expedition/

[Muskoka Man]

If you have FB ,try Snowmobile trail grooming ,lots of rigs and comments on there 

[Rich Saul]

_{^{I will send you some pics tomorrow of the drag we pull with our argo, Has also been pulled by atv and side x side on tracks they say it can be pulled with a wide track,  You will never pull a mogal mini with a wt, our old centaur would not pull the mini it came with, We rented another argo & are going to have to do first pass with argos & drags this season,}}

[Big Pete]

Brian, have you considered either a Side by Side or ATV with a track kit to pull your drag. This would give you multi-season use for general trail maintenance as well as early season packing.

[signfan]

Spend the money fixing the trail. The OFSC needs to move completely away from sled based grooming. Costs of it are too high and produce poor trail results.

[Yukon]

Have a look at the 900 ace ski doo expedition LE. We use it with a mini mogul master drag with goose neck. It works very well.

[bbakernbay]

_{^{I will send you some pics tomorrow of the drag we pull with our argo, Has also been pulled by atv and side x side on tracks they say it can be pulled with a wide track,  You will never pull a mogal mini with a wt, our old centaur would not pull the mini it came with, We rented another argo & are going to have to do first pass with argos & drags this season,}}

Thanks Rich, look forward to the photos.

Good info on Mini Mogul Master being too much for any sled.

I will ask you about Argo rentals next time I see you.

[bbakernbay]

If you have FB ,try Snowmobile trail grooming ,lots of rigs and comments on there

Great resource on everything grooming, thank you very much.

Facebook Snowmobile Trail Grooming

[Blake G]

Spend the money fixing the trail. The OFSC needs to move completely away from sled based grooming. Costs of it are too high and produce poor trail results.

But what if you have trail sections between lakes or swamps that prevent acess for industrial groomers?

[bbakernbay]

But what if you have trail sections between lakes or swamps that prevent acess for industrial groomers?

Exactly the situation we are now facing.

One bad swamp has screwed up our routes and we can't get there other than couple of Kms of road running with ice picks.

Have a look at the 900 ace ski doo expedition LE. We use it with a mini mogul master drag with goose neck. It works very well.

What is the differences between Expedition and Skandic?

Thanks Paul.

[Yukon]

It has better stearing capability than the Skandic. Its a trail sled vs a utility sled. Essentially its the same machine, same track width 20", same power.

[signfan]

$20,000 won't build a road across a swamp? A new sled with drag will run that kind of money. Add the extra cost of operation and this is a compelling argument. Gas powered engines are terribly inefficient at pulling drags. When the OFSC is collectively trying to reduce waste by trimming the industrial groomer fleet size I have to ask is buying sled based grooming equipment that will look after small amounts of trail really a good investment? The goal is over 100 km of trail per groomer. There is no way a sled will ever look after this volume of trail. I get that there are rare instances where there is trail that is right between two lakes, but in many cases a trail re-route or construction of a road on a swamp are options worth considering. Not saying I know what's best for North Bay. Just suggesting that there may be other options worth considering that will result in better more cost effective operations in the long term. Just my 2 cents.

[Techdenis007]

There are some noteable differences between the Skandic and Expedition. The Expedition is slightly heavier up front than the Skandic, has more creature comforts and goodies (visor plug standard, 12v lighter plug standard, 2-up seat has heated rear grips with comfy backrest, rather than bland without heated grips).  Better front suspension, more suited for trail riding and exploring, than work.  If your trail base is solid with light water hazards the Expedition is fine.  

 

Skandic has a 1.5" lug, more agressive tread pattern, can have automotive style studs installed, less suspension components up front ... equals Less Weight.  There is a better heavy duty front bumper available for the Skandic, with a 2" receiver hitch .... very solid.  Great for pulling from the front, or being pulled if needed...  same heavy-duty rear bumper available for both models, also provision to mount a 2" receiver hitch on the rear.

 

If you're in the dirty deep soft muck that won't freeze readily, you REALLY want a SWT with the 10" ski skins.  It's an absolute tractor, more agressive track lug (1.5 to the Expedition 1.25") and incredible floatation.  And they don't ride that bad either, considering.  

 

If I'm looking for a utility, I'd go Skandic first.  We had a SWT last winter with the 900 ACE, Just friggin' amazing.  Like, drive it off the trail into unbroken territory, stop, get off and sink yourself chin high to the  running boards, crawl back up on there, put it in reverse, and just back it up wherever you want and drive out.  Makes 6 feet of snow feel like 6 inches.  

 

The idea of pulling a drag of any size with a sled is difficult to condone, unless its for a small recreational trail.  I believe what's needed here is a machine to do preliminary packing to start freeze-up before bringing out a groomer.  

Brian, have you considered either a Side by Side or ATV with a track kit to pull your drag. This would give you multi-season use for general trail maintenance as well as early season packing.

 

If swamp is an issue, the SxS or quad with tracks will quickly become part of the swamp.  Their only advantage over tires is evident on a good base, water with gravel or rock under it. Excellent when your terrain is uneven, hilly, soft surface, but useless if the swamp has no bottom.  You sink a SxS to the belly pan with tracks, you need a timberjack to get it out, and usually break stuff trying.....  Ask me how I know ....

[bbakernbay]

Denis, thank you very much for the detailed comparison based upon your personal experience.

Was your Skandic SWT 900 someone's personal sled as it appears you no longer have it.

I have heard from the dealer and another Club that the SWT are hard to steer.

Hear some complaints that the Skandic is not structurally strong enough in the tunnel to be used pulling a drag.

Hard to be perfect at everything and I hear you that they really aren't meant to tow a drag.

[revrnd]

I was thinking along the lines of an Argo (w/ tracks) for packing. Not sure about the grooming though (JMO).

 

I'm not sure if a UTV would be the way to go. I've got a 500 Ranger & the frame is pretty lightweight (1" x .060" square tubing). Plus the hitch receiver is very low. I bet a season of trying to groom w/ 1 would end badly. Not sure how the full size Poo UTVs would fare. The Kubota diesels are probably the most rugged/costly on the market.

[Blake G]

$20,000 won't build a road across a swamp? A new sled with drag will run that kind of money. Add the extra cost of operation and this is a compelling argument. Gas powered engines are terribly inefficient at pulling drags. When the OFSC is collectively trying to reduce waste by trimming the industrial groomer fleet size I have to ask is buying sled based grooming equipment that will look after small amounts of trail really a good investment? The goal is over 100 km of trail per groomer. There is no way a sled will ever look after this volume of trail. I get that there are rare instances where there is trail that is right between two lakes, but in many cases a trail re-route or construction of a road on a swamp are options worth considering. Not saying I know what's best for North Bay. Just suggesting that there may be other options worth considering that will result in better more cost effective operations in the long term. Just my 2 cents.

Good points, signfan.

 

I know in some territories, parts of Muskoka for example, there are trails that cross multiple swamps and lakes in fairly quick sequence. In these cases, building a road to try and cross one swamp would still not allow the club to make efficient use of an industrial groomer.

 

Food for thought, I guess.

[Bucking Pig]

$20,000 won't build a road across a swamp? A new sled with drag will run that kind of money. Add the extra cost of operation and this is a compelling argument. Gas powered engines are terribly inefficient at pulling drags. When the OFSC is collectively trying to reduce waste by trimming the industrial groomer fleet size I have to ask is buying sled based grooming equipment that will look after small amounts of trail really a good investment? The goal is over 100 km of trail per groomer. There is no way a sled will ever look after this volume of trail. I get that there are rare instances where there is trail that is right between two lakes, but in many cases a trail re-route or construction of a road on a swamp are options worth considering. Not saying I know what's best for North Bay. Just suggesting that there may be other options worth considering that will result in better more cost effective operations in the long term. Just my 2 cents.

Actually, I don't think $20,000 would build you much of anything in a swamp to be honest. Particularly if you've got to cross a lake or three other swamps to get to it. Plus there is the environmental impact of doing that.

[Techdenis007]

Denis, thank you very much for the detailed comparison based upon your personal experience.

Was your Skandic SWT 900 someone's personal sled as it appears you no longer have it.

I have heard from the dealer and another Club that the SWT are hard to steer.

Hear some complaints that the Skandic is not structurally strong enough in the tunnel to be used pulling a drag.

Hard to be perfect at everything and I hear you that they really aren't meant to tow a drag.

 

Brian, I've never heard anyone complain about its structural strength in the tunnel being an issue.  There's drags, and then there's DRAGS .... if you're trying to pull 2000 pounds of drag with cutting edges digging in, you're looking at the wrong tool here ... that's why you have groomers.  Now a small lightweight tubing-based drag with a couple of flatbars to level light snow, that's another story.  All depends on what you're going to do with it.  (I hauled my entire house contents in a F150 2wd 4.6L from Timmins to Hearst in an enclosed 32 foot car carrier trailer, right off the bumper... it survived the ordeal without issue, very well I might add, but I wouldn't make a habit of it, you understand I'm sure .....)

 

If you're looking to pull a drag with it, you'll want the Heavy Duty rear bumper, which is extremely solid, bolted at 4 places each side of the tunnel, and to the center rear of the rear crosser.  Again, you can put the 2" receiver hitch on it, or make your own receiver for whatever towing implement you have.

 

The SWT we had was ours to use, a demo, for anyone to try.  A few people came and test rode it, and one ultimately bought it, very happy with it.  Our salesman used it one weekend for firewood duty, in ridiculous deep snow.  Nothing else would go where it could.  Buddy is close to 6 feet tall 330 lbs, he sank to his armpits where the snow was still below the running boards on the sled.  The business owner took it out to a lake, and found a spot well drifted over, no one had been there all winter.  He couldn't stick it for trying.... and he tried .....  I took it for a test ride for about an hour, it makes any other widetrack sled look like a dirt bike.  It just works.  

 

Harder to steer, yeah, maybe somewhat, maybe depends on your terrain, depth of snow (hard pack or breaking trail), suspension adjustment in the skidframe (more or less center spring pressure, more or less rear spring preload, limiter strap adjustment, etc.)  If you shorten the limiter strap one hole and increase the rear torsion spring preload one position, it transfers about 50-80 pounds of weight to the skis, so more bite, equals better steering.  But you wind up with more weight on the skis, they sink easier, harder to steer (phsyically).  So you may have to adjust suspension slightly for different scenerios, depending on where you're at in the season.  Early season breaking first trail and packing you want most floatation possible, later for maintenance you might need it to steer better.  5 minutes of suspension adjustment twice a season is a joke.

[Wildbill]

We had a VK540 and a mini mogul master they worked fine 

[Techdenis007]

Up here they send a hydraulic shovel into a swampy area, and they "raise the road" as we say ... dig out material from either side, making the center higher, which becomes the new road, or trail.  One such area they did last year between the airport and the marina, L159 ... they did a section about a km long, might have taken some time, and I'm all but positive that it was a contribution from the construction company to the club.  (they're good that way up here).  There are a few swampy sections they fixed up this way, does a pretty good job.  Expensive, yes, but effective and you only have to do it once, and once it's done the swamp isn't an issue anymore.

[Greggie]

Brian,

 

Check this out, lots of information about cross country grooming and they are using snowmobiles, side by sides such as John Deer Gator and snowmobiles.

http://s8.zetaboards.com/snowgroomingtalk/forum/7354/

You are afraid to sing a ATV or side by side? You can also sink a snowmobile very easy if there is now much ice.....\

Thanks,

Greg

[2bsledding]

$20,000 won't build a road across a swamp? A new sled with drag will run that kind of money. Add the extra cost of operation and this is a compelling argument. Gas powered engines are terribly inefficient at pulling drags. When the OFSC is collectively trying to reduce waste by trimming the industrial groomer fleet size I have to ask is buying sled based grooming equipment that will look after small amounts of trail really a good investment? The goal is over 100 km of trail per groomer. There is no way a sled will ever look after this volume of trail. I get that there are rare instances where there is trail that is right between two lakes, but in many cases a trail re-route or construction of a road on a swamp are options worth considering. Not saying I know what's best for North Bay. Just suggesting that there may be other options worth considering that will result in better more cost effective operations in the long term. Just my 2 cents.

In some areas you have QEII Parklands, Conservation areas, Torrance & Kashe Barrens, Provincially designated wetlands, etc, where it doesn't matter how much money you have, you will not get permission, to infill a water crossing. If some are thinking bridges, it is possible with a lot of red tape to cut through. However, 20K does not build much of a bridge crossing if it is engineered and designed to hold a Industrial Groomer. 20K = approx. 10ft X 20Ft engineered steel bridge.   

[Wildbill]

Up here they send a hydraulic shovel into a swampy area, and they "raise the road" as we say ... dig out material from either side, making the center higher, which becomes the new road, or trail.  One such area they did last year between the airport and the marina, L159 ... they did a section about a km long, might have taken some time, and I'm all but positive that it was a contribution from the construction company to the club.  (they're good that way up here).  There are a few swampy sections they fixed up this way, does a pretty good job.  Expensive, yes, but effective and you only have to do it once, and once it's done the swamp isn't an issue anymore.

the atvs destroy these 

[Panther340]

the atvs destroy these 

 

Exactly.......I have a 100 foot wide swamp on my property between my fields and my Maple Sap operation. I did the dike thing thru the centre of the swamp using fill from each side with my Kubota loader (in August when swamp almost  dry) even installed a few culverts so would not be a dam...........but every spring and fall rainy season , I have to stay off the berm with ATV or motorcycles because it is soup and wastes away. Only correct way for me to be able to maintain it with all uses would be to of used many many loads of gravel, and that would be okay on private land like mine if I could afford it, but on crown land no way that would be allowed if MNR found.