Are Ontario trails forced closed on a fixed date?

[The Groomer Guy]

i am guessing great riding will be at least until april 27-28th, longer if night time temps help.

here is a video from 2 days ago. some subliminal messages may be hidden in the music.

Ski

It wont play Ski, the music is bloked by you tube....

[skidooboy]

blocked if viewed by phone. on a pc you can get it. it should play on the phone without music. Ski

[The Groomer Guy]

They Block thos videos in Canda with EMI Music... bastards lol

[Turbo Doo]

I totally agree. As i said in a previous post, if the CLUB, the VOLUNTEERS, and the CONDITIONS permit, then lets ride..PERIOD..This has been a great end of the season for the northern area's, for god sakes, let them enjoy it if the clubs are ABLE to maintain and keep trails open..Good for them, and thanks for all the hard works.

Answer me this? If these conditions were around here in the south, would the trails be open??

[Ox]

Pretty flat land there Ski....

So tell me, if they don't want to cover late season riding, then does the OFSC get a discount for the late season start-ups?

I have 2 tags from this yr that aint been used yet. If it makes anyone feel any better - you can use my 400 loonies to pay for some fuel and liability costs.

They Block thos videos in Canda with EMI Music... bastards lol

EMI maybe?

But that Shirley wasn't music...

.

[Wildman]

Having trails open this long in my are IS a PAIN in the ARSE...... we contantly get ask about the trails, having to proove ourselfs, pictures and stuff, I took the risk Management traning so I should know what I'm doing..... I agree with Ski.... I paid a permit there is ton of snow, the trails MUST stay open, I groomed this winter in a mather to keep hours in reserve if ever we had a longer winter, I was alocated an amount of hours for the season and have only use maybe 3/4 off it, enven less, the fuel take is almost full at the shop, locals are riding THAT HAVE PAID FOR PERMITS, I'm looking at organuising a ride this weekend and next weekend. I'm not saying groom every night and every trails, just a quick touch up, THE OFSC it just trying to be cautious, But I just le me do my thing... I chose to live here, I love winter, this is our life, not going to stop the trails because there is now snow south of us, life going on north of french river after the snow melts. this temp up here is Normal weather, we use to have this is the early 90s its snowing as I type this......

I love my snow!!!!

stick to ur guns Luc, as far as I see, the district nor the federation can make u close trails that are properly signed and maintained.......has the district ops director issued an A-03......if not, keep up the great work

[The Groomer Guy]

Nobody told me or other club members they want us to close the trails but I was getting emails about how the trails are and asking me to down grade my trails to limited a few weeks back, Asking for pictures of the trails and stuff, I totally understand why.... they are worried about liability, because there is no snow down south, it's hard to get it when you are home and there is not a speck of snow and the lawn is ready to be mowed.

[Wildman]

I hear ya Luc, I have loaded sleds down here in march, 15*c er better, everybody is riding their motorcycles and we are leaving for a week of sledding......people look at us like we r nuts.

u should give the head staff the link to ur blog, if they followed along it could save some wondering what is going on up there.

[02Sled]

I AM NOT SAYING THAT. I AM TELLING YOU THE OFSC AND THE DISTRICT WANT THESE TRAILS ABOVE (SEE THE VIDEO), CLOSED.

do you think that trail warrants closing? that video is from 4 days ago, with more snow forcasted.

what if you bought a permit and had the option to still ride, and they closed your local trails looking like that... WOULD YOU BE HAPPY?

THEY DONT NEED ANYMORE GROOMING, SIGNAGE, OR MAINTAINENCE. THEY JUST NEED TO REMAIN OPEN FOR USE, TO DRAW PEOPLE (SNOWMOBILERS), AND NEEDED REVENUE TO THE REGION.

WHEN THEY GET "IFFY", POST THEM AS LIMITED, WHEN THEY GET BAD, POST THEM AS CLOSED. GIVE PERMIT BUYERS THE OPTION TO KEEP RIDING WHEN CONDITIONS ALLOW. THAT IS ALL I AM ASKING. Ski

The OFSC website posts a disclaimer that the ratings are only a guide and use your own judgement. I strongly suspect the desire to post as closed is related to a liability concern. Someone gets hurt at this point in the year they can say the trail is closed. Or perhaps there is some of it that is on private property and there is a desire to satisfy the requests of a landowner.

[skidooboy]

answer the question.... DO YOU THINK THAT TRAIL WARRANTS CLOSING, BY THE CONDITIONS PRESENTED IN THAT VIDEO?

if you think it does, then we should list ALL TRAILS CLOSED, ALL YEAR , using your liability arguement.

Ski

[02Sled]

So as long as there is snow, even if it were to run into June, regardless of the cost that they don't have money for they should keep maintaining all those km's of trails in an area that doesn't sell enough permits to be self sustainable and needs matrix transfers to groom, those trails should be kept open to keep a dozen people happy...

Cost per person still riding might only be well in excess of the cost of the permit they buy. But hey the wallet is never empty is it. Every club faced economic challenges this year... even those who had strong permit sales... how is it that the far north has lots of cash to keep on grooming into late April? Send some of the cash our way... we need some to pay for a building for our groomer.

[Wildman]

So as long as there is snow, even if it were to run into June, regardless of the cost that they don't have money for they should keep maintaining all those km's of trails in an area that doesn't sell enough permits to be self sustainable and needs matrix transfers to groom, those trails should be kept open to keep a dozen people happy...

Cost per person still riding might only be well in excess of the cost of the permit they buy. But hey the wallet is never empty is it. Every club faced economic challenges this year... even those who had strong permit sales... how is it that the far north has lots of cash to keep on grooming into late April? Send some of the cash our way... we need some to pay for a building for our groomer.

if you read Luc's posts, he outlines that they managed their money and grooming hours early in the year to allow enough funds to cover late season trail maintenance. In my opinion that is excellent use of funds to get the longest grooming season possible. I don't really think they need to be scrutinised in this way.

I also believe the situation is being blown way out of proportion. I see why it is north versus south, it only takes a couple people to get the ball rolling.

[Wildman]

answer the question.... DO YOU THINK THAT TRAIL WARRANTS CLOSING, BY THE CONDITIONS PRESENTED IN THAT VIDEO?

if you think it does, then we should list ALL TRAILS CLOSED, ALL YEAR , using your liability arguement.

Ski

no, and Luc clearly states that he was asked to downgrade to limited, not closed........there is a very big differance. if u look at the trail guide, the only avalible trails (green) are Marathon and Geraldton, and it just so happens they aren't interconnected trails.

[skidooboy]

wildman, even listing as limited in those conditions, and now with more fresh snow, doesnt make any sense. they are in mid season conditions. with the ofsc and the district "pressuring" for pics, video to "prove" they have good conditions REGULARLY, is just like saying the club is lying about their conditions.

02sled, you are an idiot. you bend everything to suit your situation only, you never answer an asked question, and your reading comprehension sucks. your just another person i will have put on the "ignore posts from this user list". Ski

[02Sled]

wildman, even listing as limited in those conditions, and now with more fresh snow, doesnt make any sense. they are in mid season conditions. with the ofsc and the district "pressuring" for pics, video to "prove" they have good conditions REGULARLY, is just like saying the club is lying about their conditions.

02sled, you are an idiot. you bend everything to suit your situation only, you never answer an asked question, and your reading comprehension sucks. your just another person i will have put on the "ignore posts from this user list". Ski

You want to see an idiot look in the mirror...my comprehension is just fine... Let's see. Not that long ago Luc was commenting on the lack of permit sales for his area, indicated there was a high number of people riding without permits, lack of enforcement was a significant problem, and had resigned his position in the club. You reference how Luc indicated they managed their money well which they likely did. Especially if Luc is involved. You want to bet that the club is not self sustaining and that they get money redistributed from other clubs through the matrix. This isn't a north south thing. This is an everybody thing. Let's spend lots of money that we not as a club but as a provincial organization don't have to keep a lot of trails open for a VERY small number of permit buyers and a whole bunch who will rde for free.

You want to ignore other opinions... that's fine. God forbid someone has a perspective that may be different from yours. Reminds of the little kid who sticks his fingers in his ears and goes la la la I can't hear you.

Personally everyone is entitled to their own opinion and perspective. I don't dismiss others simply because they have a different perspective. From healthey debate comes enlightenment on all sides if approached with an open mind. It would seem that all you want to hear is people agree with you and everything else is just plain wrong.

By the way... coming from Michigan why is it you don't comment on their trail conditions and their trails being closed with only a very small number showing open. I have found comments similar to yours of people whining that Michigan trails are closed and shouldn't be. Seems that there are some perspectives in both organiztions regarding wanting trails flagged as either closed or limited that not everyone agrees with. Dull boring world if everyone thought exactly the same.

[Wildbill]

This conversation would be better without the name calling

[skidooboy]

and yet, he still doesnt answer the question. lmao!

everyone has their own opinion, yet you forcefully reject mine, without answering the question. outstanding!

then you turn it into an us v.s them mentality going cross border. AWESOME! why dont i talk about michigan trails? because i dont ride there, and havent for many, many years. i ride and promote tourism in northern ontario, due to better snow, less traffic, better trails, better terrain, scenery, wildlife sightling,and PEOPLE. and yet you belittle me, and those from the states even further with your comments.

Luc is wanting to extend the season, has the groomer hours and the funding left, (and definately has the snow cover and trails) to do so. he is worried about keeping his club, trails and community open through toursim, if he can promote the area with open trails and entice a few late riders.

your club is worried about money for a groomer garage. let's see who's priorities are more noble, and less selfish.

really what your comments suggest is... you are an elder arrogant canadian, living/riding in cottage country, who only cares about what happens when it effects him, and his local areas trails, clubs, grooming operations. yeah, your open minded alright.

i am done with you, Ski

[02Sled]

and yet, he still doesnt answer the question. lmao!

everyone has their own opinion, yet you forcefully reject mine, without answering the question. outstanding!

then you turn it into an us v.s them mentality going cross border. AWESOME! why dont i talk about michigan trails? because i dont ride there, and havent for many, many years. i ride and promote tourism in northern ontario, due to better snow, less traffic, better trails, better terrain, scenery, wildlife sightling,and PEOPLE. and yet you belittle me, and those from the states even further with your comments.

Luc is wanting to extend the season, has the groomer hours and the funding left, (and definately has the snow cover and trails) to do so. he is worried about keeping his club, trails and community open through toursim, if he can promote the area with open trails and entice a few late riders.

your club is worried about money for a groomer garage. let's see who's priorities are more noble, and less selfish.

really what your comments suggest is... you are an elder arrogant canadian, living/riding in cottage country, who only cares about what happens when it effects him, and his local areas trails, clubs, grooming operations. yeah, your open minded alright.

i am done with you, Ski

You are right Bill.... I allowed myself to get sucked in and respond in kind to his slur toward me.

You are entitled to your opinion... which is a lot of assumption which is off base. I don't forcefully reject your opinion. I simply suggest a different perspective and rationalization. I have never been an us versus them individual. While I support my own club I also support Ontario sledding as a whole. I manned both the D7 booth and the VIA booth at the sled show through the full weekend as well as the OFSC booth at the cottage life show over a weekend promoting sledding in all areas of Ontario. I simply asked a question regarding why you weren't critical of the Michigan trails being closed. I don't belittle anyone from the U.S. Actually I have a significant number of American friends and work with a large number of Americans on a daily basis. My manager is in Texas.

As far as selfish...consistently for many years our club has put more permit money into the system then they have received through the matrix. It is that money which supports areas such as the far north that are challenged financially through low permit sales. When our groomer needs work we don't have a clubhouse/garage to work on it in. We rely right now on the generosity of the township at the moment who are kind enough to allow us to use their garage. It has been this way for a number of years. We aren't complaining just working toward getting the money to build.

Not sure about your definition of noble. Everyone is challenged to find volunteers. Likely easier to get people to volunteer to work on your groomer when it needs repair when it can be done indoors rather than outdoors at -20. Without a working groomer we don't have trails. The groomer will also last longer if it is able to be parked out of the elements regardless of the season which will extend the life of the groomer. If memory serves me correct Groomer Guy and his club have a place to park their groomer indoors.

While they have some money left many other clubs in the province don't and I would suggest many are in a deficit situation this year. Perhaps it would be wise for Luc's club to save some of that money for next year start up or contingency. That would make them less reliant on transfer payments into the club nest year which is a good thing really. Everyone needs to be concerned with expense control. You suggested enticing late season riders and you talk about failing to answer questions. I asked how many late season riders and at what cost which you didn't answer. Would it make economic sense to spend perhaps $2000 to provide riding for 10 people? When you say entice late season riders are you suggesting that there may actually be someone looking to buy a permit this late in the year or that he may entice a couple of people to trailer there to ride. I would suggest that other than a very small number of die hards, likely retired are even able to consider a trip at this time of year. Most are facing spring clean up at home, cottage clean up, boat prep etc. Really the small number that may be enticed to ride are most ikely the locals of which there are a relatively small number of permit buyers and a number of freeloaders. That comes from Luc himself who laments the lack of enforcement and the number of people riding without permits.

As far as elder arrogant Canadian living and riding in cottage country.. wrong again. I consider elder to be those who are about 65 and up... you know... those who qualify for seniors discounts. By the way the vast majority of club volunteers are likely by your definition elder. The average snowmobiler age is mid 40's dependent upon which survey you look at but the metrics are all pretty close to the 45 mark give or take a small margin... I am not that far off. If you consider believing in your opinion/perspective arrogant than go for it. I don't feel that I believe in my opion any more strongly than you in yours.

I also don't live in cottage country although one day I hope to when I retire. I live and work in Toronto and travel to Muskoka on weekends. You also state that I only care about what happens when it effects me, my local areas trails, etc. Wrong again. I care about the sustainability of the province wide system. I am a steadfast advocate that the clubs need to set aside their egos and focus on the sustainability of the system as a whole, encouraging the concept of clubs working in collaboration with each other for the common good.

We have the matrix today. Not perfect but it is what we have. I would likely support an approach of all permit dollars going into one large central pot with a percentage of that pot being dedicated for grooming hours only and being distributed based on a matix type of scenario relative to km of trail, number of snow days and most importantly number of riders which affects trail conditons and grooming frequency more than any other factor. A trail that sees 30 riders on a Sat needs less grooming than one which sees 300.

The other portion of the pot would be for early season trail opening dispersed based upon km and terrain with the final portion of the pot dispersed for capital projects for which each club presents a business case and is assessed by a committee.

So believe what you want to believe... including your uninformed innacurate conclusions about me.

[FreezerBurnt]

Having trails open this long in my are IS a PAIN in the ARSE...... we contantly get ask about the trails, having to proove ourselfs, pictures and stuff, I took the risk Management traning so I should know what I'm doing..... I agree with Ski.... I paid a permit there is ton of snow, the trails MUST stay open, I groomed this winter in a mather to keep hours in reserve if ever we had a longer winter, I was alocated an amount of hours for the season and have only use maybe 3/4 off it, enven less, the fuel take is almost full at the shop, locals are riding THAT HAVE PAID FOR PERMITS, I'm looking at organuising a ride this weekend and next weekend. I'm not saying groom every night and every trails, just a quick touch up, THE OFSC it just trying to be cautious, But I just le me do my thing... I chose to live here, I love winter, this is our life, not going to stop the trails because there is now snow south of us, life going on north of french river after the snow melts. this temp up here is Normal weather, we use to have this is the early 90s its snowing as I type this......

I love my snow!!!!

sa

Sad part the OFSC lets clubs in the south open trails with a lots less marginal snow then you have up there Luc and nobody says boo as it's December/January and people want to ride 4-6inches of snow with rock clanking their carbides vs you guys with that great base

It's the same way here, many clubs took their signs off the trails even though the riding was still great, it's more a liability thing and the fact most have parked their sleds already

[FreezerBurnt]

I totally agree. As i said in a previous post, if the CLUB, the VOLUNTEERS, and the CONDITIONS permit, then lets ride..PERIOD..This has been a great end of the season for the northern area's, for god sakes, let them enjoy it if the clubs are ABLE to maintain and keep trails open..Good for them, and thanks for all the hard works.

Answer me this? If these conditions were around here in the south, would the trails be open??

yes

[Panther340]

Way back before all the bickering started I posted in this thread a list of townships that are private land, many of those townships are around the northern ontario communtities now being bickered about.

So private land owned by companies for the logging rights etc..... so you can bet that it is probably a liability thing that would worry OFSC , old logging roads , camp roads that need to thaw out to , as four wheelers attempt to get in for spring.

[Ox]

Yeah - I know that you posted that, but I don't have a clue why?

Anything out in the bush like that - if not Crown, would be R/R, logging, or Hydro.

Why would either of these care about the date on the calander?

If they gave permission for the season - what's the diff?

It's not like the loggers are waiting for the trail to close to go plow it and git back to work.

If they want their road - they will plow it any month of the yr if they feel that the need outweighs the cost of the grader.

Forget the fact that hauling during break-up is pretty much a non-issue anyway...

And the R/R or the Hydro ... well I have no clue why they would care what month it is either. Neither of them use the trails anymore to speak of, and only on tower repairs for the most part anymore. And as far as that goes, I called in a worshed out tower near Wokamata Lake many yrs ago. (seen during ATV trip) The way that it was on the hill and trees (believe it or not) I don't know if you could have seen the trouble from the chopper, but one leg was all air out.

Not sure if I have any pics or not...

So - I see absolutely no reason why any of these types that are willing to help out in the name of tourism for 3 months, would fuss aboot a 4th month when applicable?

Doo you really? Or are you just wanting to not have folks ride past your cabin that is on Crown land?

I also understand the ins being a yearly price, not monthly.

After March 10 the place is a ghost trail anyway, so the odds of trouble are way less.

If it's land mines melting out of the snowbank, then you will have a LOT more to worry aboot early season.

If you are worried aboot hitting a land mine - stay home?

I've already replace a bulkhead...

old logging roads , camp roads that need to thaw out to , as four wheelers attempt to get in for spring.

..and you are ass_u_ming that if they quit riding on the snow - it will quit falling?

Somehow it is the groomer opperator or the listing on the web that keeps the snow there?

Otherwise it would thaw and then the jeeps can go tear the *&^%#! out of things?

.

[Panther340]

Ox .......I will have to assume you were under the weather with your last post.......suffice it to say that there is lots of private land in those areas , those I pointed out are owned by various Ontario and American investors and perhaps they have liability concerns or perhaps the OFSC trail land lease is limited months, or insurance issues like O2 Sled was trying to explain...etc etc etc . I imagine the trails cross private and crown land in those areas same as in central ontario. .......Oh and I don't have a camp up there , but I do fish and hunt those areas. ............and those townships were in the news a few years ago when investors closed entire townships and closed leases so they could build fancy getaway cottages on remote lakes and I guess that is their perogative as it is their land.

[skidooboy]

but, like Ox stated.... when private land people (ie: hydro, logging, mining, rail road) want the use of the road/trail they just plow it up with a grader or big Cat, usually without any warning to the clubs for reroute. if they want their land use, they will get to it. doesnt matter what date is on the calendar, if maps are printed, ect.... so your issue, is really a non issue to the land owners.

i guess the big thing is, if wawa and dub wanted to advertize via the free world wide web, that they had open and rideable trails to "possibly" get a few more daily, 3 day, seven day passes sold, or to bring more money into their local revenue by, fuel sales, lodging, meals ect... why not let them, without badgering them? even if they never groomed again, and the fuel was long paid for, and they dont sell any permits but, people get to ride late, and "try the area out", for future opportunities.... possibly creating future permit buyers, AND they still bring needed revenue into the respective communities in lodging, food, fuel, ect....

the only thing i ask is, look at your own situation... if the trails in your area were like the ones above, and your club, and community were struggling to survive, wouldnt you do everything you could, to try to boost revenue for the good of your club and community. were talking about not adding any cost to the club, disctrict or ofsc. THEY ARE NOT GOING TO GROOM ANY MORE. they just want to keep the trails listed as open or limited, so they can entice people to the area (inc. tourists and local/regional riders), with the thoughts of more late season riding. no more, no less.

Ski

[Panther340]

.............and so who would be liable if OFSC sites and local club had trail listed as open , and then rider comes around corner and meets head on a plow from logging company , or a like in central Ontario meets head on a cottage owner driving his SUV with chains or ATV into his cottage? These trails on summer dirt roads pose a risk when summer users assume trail is done being used by OFSC. We have some summer roads in Echo Bay area like that too.

Unfortunately insurance companies run our lives now, and I was just letting OX and others realize that this is no neccassarily all crown land and so risks are increased. ...............I cannot believe I actually agreed with O2 sled on this one !