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Throttle back on trail permit fees


500ssman

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Then why offer? This is a step backwards IMO!

For sure, question really is, does all money from the regional permit just end up staying in that region? That would kill some places, or is it their way of trying to see where people are actually riding.

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At this rate we’ll have nothing but signs everywhere warning us or telling us what we can’t do. Like a huge nanny state. No doubt will begin to interfere with our enjoyment of public spaces, well I suppose it alreay is. Crazy and foolish for Ontario to continue down this slippery slope in my opinion. These lawsuits are getting way out of hand.Time for the government to take the bull by the hands, but doubt that willl ever happen.

As long as we let people get away with making money off of their own stupidity then yes... that is the direction we are sadly headed. I don't have collision coverage on my sled. If I do something stupid and run into a tree then it's my own stupidity and I will pay for it. I won't be blaming the snowmobile club that they didn't warn me there may be a layer of ice under the layer of snow. There are others who think alike but there are way too many that would claim the snowmobile club should have done more to protect them from their own stupidity. As long as that continues we will have high insurance costs

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WE ARE SCREWED BY INSURANCE CO's IN ONTARIO

I believe the latest "pie chart" I saw of your trail permit dollars - showed 40% + going to the OFSC liability policy.

Yet I have never heard of an actual court case where the OFSC was convicted and required to pay any damages.

ANYONE ?

Kenora club 10 yrs ago is one of the ones that started the ball rolling on the RM that the OFSC has pushed to avoid stupid lawsuits

I know our club had lawsuit too, 10 or so yrs ago

there is no point posting results other than the OFSC gets sued and does lose some cases, no need to give people ideas

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I am sort of new to sledding, what's this permit, specific districts or areas, say only D9, or only D5 or is it more linked to just Milverton Club

Trails for example?

One region will be all of district 5 and 9 and part of 8. So you will be able to ride the whole area you normally do on a regional permit. Province is suppose to be divided into 5 regions.

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I don't remember the regional divisions right now but proposed priceing as follows

Full season

uber early bird (before Nov 1) $180

Early Bird (before Dec 1st) $210

After Dec 1st $280

Regional Classic Permit

$140

Remember these are only proposed prices, has to be OK'd by MTO first.

The only regional permet next year will be in the classic form.

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I don't remember the regional divisions right now but proposed priceing as follows

Full season

uber early bird (before Nov 1) $180

Early Bird (before Dec 1st) $210

After Dec 1st $280

Regional Classic Permit

$140

Remember these are only proposed prices, has to be OK'd by MTO first.

The only regional permet next year will be in the classic form.

Are you saying full season permit will be 180 before dec 1st?

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if the ofsc folded tomorrow, the clubs and trails would still be there. if you dont think that, i'd like some of what you're smokin.

remember there were trails and clubs, LOOOOOOOONG BEFORE THERE WAS THE OFSC.

now... the interconnected province wide trail systems might end, except for those communities working together. and funding would be an issue but, the machines, trails, and club members would be there.

and if you read above, i did state... i am defaulting to a fellow connected club member for more info. Ski

ya, and allot of the clubs you refer to do not sell enough permits to operate on their own, so where is the money going to come from, split from the federation and no more money. There are allot of clubs that operate on the short fall payments made to the districts. Bash the federation all you want, it is made up of snowmobilers that want the best for the sport. It is a user pay system, we maintain what we can with the money generated. Ontario is a geographicly huge area......it makes it tough when there is not enough money to support areas that can not support themselves. In these circumstances someone suffers, and typicaly it is the ones that can't hold there own. I don't like it any more than anybody else, but I see the reality of it all.

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Are you saying full season permit will be 180 before nov 1st

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Yes that is the proposal so far

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Thanks, I will second that. Finally someone is listening!

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Just remember its all contingent upon the MTO among other things.

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I don't remember the regional divisions right now but proposed priceing as follows

Full season

uber early bird (before Nov 1) $180

Early Bird (before Dec 1st) $210

After Dec 1st $280

Regional Classic Permit

$140

Remember these are only proposed prices, has to be OK'd by MTO first.

The only regional permet next year will be in the classic form.

You know that almost makes sense. Making the clasic permit a regional permit only is a good idea, there are some classic sleds out there that you could easily tour on.

The 380 I have, made a few 3 and 4 day saddle bag trips over the last few years under a classic permit. And I'm sure there are others out there that still do it.

It will really make me stop and think about what type of permit I put on it next year. The classic may not cover the full area of riding we might do.

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No before NOV 1st

Just curious as to why you would oppose this? I say get rid of the regional!

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Just curious as to why you would oppose this? I say get rid of the regional!

I am opposing the regional. I like the idea of a 180 full season permit before nov 1.

I think the classic will stay. What good is it, if you can't go to an area that has snow. Maybe up it to 140 and call it a day.

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I am opposing the regional. I like the idea of a 180 full season permit before nov 1.

I think the classic will stay. What good is it, if you can't go to an area that has snow. Maybe up it to 140 and call it a day.

or spend the $180 before Nov 1 and buy a full OFSC permit....... the problem with the classic permit is most of these "classics" were full season permitted sleds before the new permit. the OFSC lost a considerable amount of revenue here, and now we are looking at what the 1999-2000 MY sleds (highest number of sleds sold in these years I believe).

I like the idea of a very early buy, and a solid incentive to buy early now. $200 is sticker shock, Retailers price their goods at 1.99 or 199.95 for a reason.... like this a lot better than the regional idea, which now seems silly if you can get an OFSC permit for 180......

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There is no difference between the classic permit and the regional classic permit other than the classic permit will be within one of the regions (which are quite large)

If you have a classic sled that you wish to saddle bag across more than your region you will need a full season permint.

Logisticaly it would have been impossiable to implement a regional permit for all sled, it brought up to many how do we ??

enforcement, selling etc.

Most classic permits (98% or more) are put on sleds that don't really stray far from home.
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There is no difference between the classic permit and the
regional classic permit
other than the classic permit will be within one of the regions (which are quite large)

If you have a classic sled that you wish to saddle bag across more than your region you will need a full season permint.

Logisticaly it would have been impossiable to implement a regional permit for all sled, it brought up to many how do we ??

enforcement, selling etc.

Most classic permits (98% or more) are put on sleds that don't really stray far from home.

It's not only for classics its for all sleds!

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I still think the cost of the Trail permit is the smallest of all your costs compared to: insurance, maintenance and sled/gear purchase cost yet it is the most scrutinized. I think the OFSC is very cognizant of the fact that the past few winters haven't been banner years and have held the line on the cost of the permit in the face of increasing operating costs.

The cost to insure and save clubs harmless from those who look to financially gain from their own stupidity is the major driver of increased costs. I do however, believe that the OFSC has to look at a formula that keeps trails open in the North and thus our expansive trail system. They don't have the membership base to support the cost of operations. We also have to lobby the Provincial Government for more financial support to keep an industry that many remote communities rely on in the winter. We need to demonstrate the economic benefit snowmobiling has to these communities.

We need to lobby for legislative change so that volunteer organizations offering off-road activity trails that users are supposed to ride at their own risk are saved from vexatious lawsuits.

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A classic permit of any description really does not help a club with today's levels of expenses. Somebody with a classic permit can ride the same trails as I do yet they pay much less to go for a days ride on the trails. It only helps the guys bank account that bought the classic permit. The cost to groom and maintain Km for Km of trail remains the same if you're on a new sled versus a twenty year old sled. As mentioned many of those now buying classic permits were buying full season permits previously. That has been identified through permit renewals.

There might be merit in a greatly reduced pre December 1st price versus the post December 1st price hike. There is a tipping point where people are now weighing...buy the pass or travel with cash/ credit card to,buy a pass trail side or, risk the trespassing fine which is roughly the same as a pass. I'd be interested in seeing where the discussion goes about transferring more authority to trail patrol to have the ability to not only sell a trail side pass but also allow them to at least lay a set fine for trespassing at the same time. Hit the freeloaders.

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I agree Fred, get caught on the trail without a permit, let the trail patrol fine you as well as having to sell you a permit. Min $400 to let you go (permit and fine)

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or spend the $180 before Nov 1 and buy a full OFSC permit....... the problem with the classic permit is most of these "classics" were full season permitted sleds before the new permit. the OFSC lost a considerable amount of revenue here, and now we are looking at what the 1999-2000 MY sleds (highest number of sleds sold in these years I believe).

I like the idea of a very early buy, and a solid incentive to buy early now. $200 is sticker shock, Retailers price their goods at 1.99 or 199.95 for a reason.... like this a lot better than the regional idea, which now seems silly if you can get an OFSC permit for 180......

I have a question for Killer and Viper. Are you saying that the Early, Early discount at $180 will generate enough permit sales in the Northern clubs to address the financial problems. If you look at D13, their Permit sales have gone from 2108 in 08/09 to 1177 in 11/12. (Figures taken from 12/13 Quantified Matrix). Is a $180 permit price going to generate enough new sales to get back to historical levels? Without any method to redistribute revenues across the province on an equitable basis all the early/early discount does is lower the overall revenue in the system. And if you lower the permit price in the big permit sales Districts in the south, will they have money to contribute to the current revenue distribution model under the Quatified Matrix. Remember, that there is over $1 million dollars scheduled to go the northern districts (D11-D17) under the 2012/2013 Trail Funding plan. At least a Regional Permit attempts to force the Buy Where You Ride concept. It also recognizes the fact that about 50% of all permit buyers never leave their home areas.

The reality of the situation is that a lot of people are looking for that single magic bullet that will solve all the problems when in fact is does not exist. It going to take a lot of effort on a number of fronts if the province wide, interconnected trail network is to survive. And the first thing that needs to happen, is that every sledder needs to get involved with their local club. That means attending meetings, getting informed, making your opinion and suggestions known. I happen to believe a solution does exist, its just that we have not found it yet.

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I have a question for Killer and Viper. Are you saying that the Early, Early discount at $180 will generate enough permit sales in the Northern clubs to address the financial problems. If you look at D13, their Permit sales have gone from 2108 in 08/09 to 1177 in 11/12. (Figures taken from 12/13 Quantified Matrix). Is a $180 permit price going to generate enough new sales to get back to historical levels? Without any method to redistribute revenues across the province on an equitable basis all the early/early discount does is lower the overall revenue in the system. And if you lower the permit price in the big permit sales Districts in the south, will they have money to contribute to the current revenue distribution model under the Quatified Matrix. Remember, that there is over $1 million dollars scheduled to go the northern districts (D11-D17) under the 2012/2013 Trail Funding plan. At least a Regional Permit attempts to force the Buy Where You Ride concept. It also recognizes the fact that about 50% of all permit buyers never leave their home areas.

The reality of the situation is that a lot of people are looking for that single magic bullet that will solve all the problems when in fact is does not exist. It going to take a lot of effort on a number of fronts if the province wide, interconnected trail network is to survive. And the first thing that needs to happen, is that every sledder needs to get involved with their local club. That means attending meetings, getting informed, making your opinion and suggestions known. I happen to believe a solution does exist, its just that we have not found it yet.

Quite well said. In particular the last paragraph. Clubs need involvement and hands on. It's quite possible we are still trying to support the worlds largest trail network based on what was needed and expected several years ago wen sales and volume was much bigger. Maybe, we have to look at scaling back for awhile and see where the sport goes. It will save money, reduce the amount of insurance because the system is smaller and more financially responsible to manage. Everything else gets scaled back in tough economic times and here we are maintaining a network that is not financially stable. Yet...we rely on money from the Province because permit sales are slowing and without that influx, we would be broke. While I hate to say it..maybe we look at reducing some club trails to permit the touring to continue yet reduce local operating costs and be able to move more money around within tHe OFSC. I'm sure if we all looked at our local clubs trail networks you could find trails that we could do without for a few seasons and still maintain a nice network at a much reduced cost. It doesn't mean give up the trails, or forever close them, just not open them for a few seasons. There would be some major cost savings with realistically responsible impact. Just a thought.

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It's not only for classics its for all sleds!

No, Regional permit is for classic ONLY !!

I have a question for Killer and Viper. Are you saying that the Early, Early discount at $180 will generate enough permit sales in the Northern clubs to address the financial problems. If you look at D13, their Permit sales have gone from 2108 in 08/09 to 1177 in 11/12. (Figures taken from 12/13 Quantified Matrix). Is a $180 permit price going to generate enough new sales to get back to historical levels? Without any method to redistribute revenues across the province on an equitable basis all the early/early discount does is lower the overall revenue in the system. And if you lower the permit price in the big permit sales Districts in the south, will they have money to contribute to the current revenue distribution model under the Quatified Matrix. Remember, that there is over $1 million dollars scheduled to go the northern districts (D11-D17) under the 2012/2013 Trail Funding plan. At least a Regional Permit attempts to force the Buy Where You Ride concept. It also recognizes the fact that about 50% of all permit buyers never leave their home areas.

The reality of the situation is that a lot of people are looking for that single magic bullet that will solve all the problems when in fact is does not exist. It going to take a lot of effort on a number of fronts if the province wide, interconnected trail network is to survive. And the first thing that needs to happen, is that every sledder needs to get involved with their local club. That means attending meetings, getting informed, making your opinion and suggestions known. I happen to believe a solution does exist, its just that we have not found it yet.

We as snowmibilers have been saying for years the the $200 mark is the tripping point, with an uber earlybird at $180 we may be able to get more permits sold when the money is needed.

I know myself at $180 I will be bying 2, wait one, the other sled will be a classic next year.

None of this is set in stone yet, has to go through MTO first and they may kybosh the whole thing.

There are many other thing in the works with the frame work for change as well, sustainable funding etc

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Quite well said. In particular the last paragraph. Clubs need involvement and hands on. It's quite possible we are still trying to support the worlds largest trail network based on what was needed and expected several years ago wen sales and volume was much bigger. Maybe, we have to look at scaling back for awhile and see where the sport goes. It will save money, reduce the amount of insurance because the system is smaller and more financially responsible to manage. Everything else gets scaled back in tough economic times and here we are maintaining a network that is not financially stable. Yet...we rely on money from the Province because permit sales are slowing and without that influx, we would be broke. While I hate to say it..maybe we look at reducing some club trails to permit the touring to continue yet reduce local operating costs and be able to move more money around within tHe OFSC. I'm sure if we all looked at our local clubs trail networks you could find trails that we could do without for a few seasons and still maintain a nice network at a much reduced cost. It doesn't mean give up the trails, or forever close them, just not open them for a few seasons. There would be some major cost savings with realistically responsible impact. Just a thought.

That is one thing that is beoing asked of all clubs already.

We trimmed most of our fat back a few years ago and are very lean in the trails dept now

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