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Throttle back on trail permit fees


500ssman

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a pair of one old 380s will cost you $12000?????

Dad bought a year old Safari 377 in 1988 with 1400kms for $2800

why do people have to buy a 140hp sled and complain about the price and try to compare to what they paid for a 80hp sled 15yrs earlier, never understood that argument

No I meant if you where to go buy a pair of one year old entry level sleds today. It would cost you close to 12g.

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Just curious, how much gas will $420 buy you when trailering to Que or MI

Who cares. Once I got my trailer connected, I could care less if I drive 5 or 12 hours. I would like to ride from home, but what can you do. I have a new sled waiting for break in kms. Hoping to get 1,000kms next week.

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if the ofsc folded tomorrow, the clubs and trails would still be there. if you dont think that, i'd like some of what you're smokin.

remember there were trails and clubs, LOOOOOOOONG BEFORE THERE WAS THE OFSC.

now... the interconnected province wide trail systems might end, except for those communities working together. and funding would be an issue but, the machines, trails, and club members would be there.

and if you read above, i did state... i am defaulting to a fellow connected club member for more info. Ski

There is no way in hell that a club could get liability insurance on their own. Before the OFSC come into being we didn't have liabilty problems. Secondly how do you think these northern clubs could pay their bills without help from the rest of the province? Your response certainly tells us that you have no idea how the system works.

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  • Dave K it cost's around $125 to $150 per person (4 go) plus room. But I can buy when I know theres rideable trails and not worry if the groomers have been out. I have been involved with the Ofsc for 20 years and these winters are making there problems even worse. I get the cost to operate and maintain and if this year is as bad as last there will be another huge drop in sales. And how much is our permit going to cost then less sales same costs something will have to give. By the way I have no problem with the cost just the way some clubs or disricts are saying grooming hours when they should be out. Dave I see you live close by if you ever want to tag along to Que or Mi let me know.

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There is no way in hell that a club could get liability insurance on their own. Before the OFSC come into being we didn't have liabilty problems. Secondly how do you think these northern clubs could pay their bills without help from the rest of the province? Your response certainly tells us that you have no idea how the system works.

Also...if the OFSC folded tomorrow a huge portion of the clubs across the Province would be closed up tighter than a drum. You might find a few bigger clubs survive..that sell I excess of 1500 to 2000 permits but how many is that? Plus they would have to jack up pass prices astronomically to fund insurance premiums. Your TOP trails would close..end up with local club trails only. Then as the OFSC was dissolved...bridges' groomers, signage, training, resources would all vanish..and so the sport would erode slowly into what it was 30 years ago. People riding poorly laid out dangerous small trail systems that lead nowhere.

Without the Districts..a lot of clubs would not have the resources they need to survive. Many clubs rely on the Districts to process their permits and paperwork as they can't afford to pay a full time admin person or have the depth of volunteers to tackle the reconciliations of the permits and timelines. Remove the permit element and who does the training? Do we just make up things? If all you do is off trail ride up north it's fair to say you would not know what it takes to run a club today..not being a smartass, it's something you don't see so you don't know.

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Bottom line if d5 and d9 don't get snow soon, another 15 percent of people that bought earlier this year won't be early again next year. No rideable snow for 2.3 years now, in an area that use to average 6 good weeks a year. I know ofsc can't gurantee snow, but the value to rider's in these area's are very low currently. Quebec is different, since a bad year there is 6 week riding season. Most of us would kill for just 6 weeks of available trails in our local area.

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It's those darned Quebec separatists screwing around with their weather machine causing our lack of snow and their abundance. :cheers:

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I know if I stay in the sport, I won't be buying my pass next year until I can ride.

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WE ARE SCREWED BY INSURANCE CO's IN ONTARIO

I believe the latest "pie chart" I saw of your trail permit dollars - showed 40% + going to the OFSC liability policy.

Yet I have never heard of an actual court case where the OFSC was convicted and required to pay any damages.

I think there was one in Montreal where a land owner was paid out a settlement.

Can anyone post an actual settlement that has happened ?

ANYONE ?

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  • Dave K it cost's around $125 to $150 per person (4 go) plus room. But I can buy when I know theres rideable trails and not worry if the groomers have been out. I have been involved with the Ofsc for 20 years and these winters are making there problems even worse. I get the cost to operate and maintain and if this year is as bad as last there will be another huge drop in sales. And how much is our permit going to cost then less sales same costs something will have to give. By the way I have no problem with the cost just the way some clubs or disricts are saying grooming hours when they should be out. Dave I see you live close by if you ever want to tag along to Que or Mi let me know.

Not pickin on you skis up, just a general comment, please dont be offended.

One weekend away will cost anyone more than the pass would cost you for the whole season. Even if you only go with two people, since you only have two sleds. At 150 per person plus motels you soon have a combined total of $500 or more for one weekend. Not including the fact that you need to buy food as well.

When I look at the trail map in the Listowel area, there are oodles of trails to ride from home. By not buying your pass, you loose these on the good years that will be coming again.

I realize we just went through a crap year last year, and this year hasn't started out good yet, but two years ago we sledded for a long time from our front doorstep. This is what our permit purchase protects.

Just my two cents, again not pickin on anyone, just stating my feelings using your example.

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WE ARE SCREWED BY INSURANCE CO's IN ONTARIO

I believe the latest "pie chart" I saw of your trail permit dollars - showed 40% + going to the OFSC liability policy.

Yet I have never heard of an actual court case where the OFSC was convicted and required to pay any damages.

I think there was one in Montreal where a land owner was paid out a settlement.

Can anyone post an actual settlement that has happened ?

ANYONE ?

Prior to the level of risk management being where it is today there were some very significant cases the OFSC lost. Hence the new signage programs, online reporting, documenting, risk management training, club penalties for non-compliance..and it all goes on. As far as posting court cases..the details of the settlements are often not publicly published. You can however do a freedom of information act request and find the information yourself unless the documents have been sealed which both parties can agree to. In some cases.

There has been significant savings the last few areas in insurance yet it remains high because of the litigious society we live in. Just because the big claims aren't being paid out does not mean there isn't a cost to resolve them in a hearing, tribunal, or courtroom. Add in fees for expert witnesses, Physicians statements, income loss calculations from accountants, the actual cost of processing a claim paid out or not is astronomical. Herein is why the rates remain high.

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An accident involving a sled and a truck in our area a few years ago ended up dragging the involved club and OFSC thru the legal process. The club had done everything in its' power to have their trails signed to the current OFSC specification and had done nothing wrong. The snowmobiler finally folded their case when it got to the discovery process and seen they didn't have a leg to stand on. Just this process alone generated over $15k worth of legal bills to be paid by the OFSC. Even if there isn't a payout in a lawsuit it doesn't mean there isn't a lot of money spent.

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Look no farther than this article to see why liability insurance premiums are as high as they are in Ontario.

Partial quote.....

"At least, that's the hope of a Toronto personal injury lawyer after he helped win an undisclosed financial settlement from the province for a Toronto-area man paralyzed after a swimming incident at the Pinery.”(Provincial Park).

http://www.lfpress.com/news/columnists/ian_gillespie/2012/03/20/19527906.html

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WE ARE SCREWED BY INSURANCE CO's IN ONTARIO

I believe the latest "pie chart" I saw of your trail permit dollars - showed 40% + going to the OFSC liability policy.

Yet I have never heard of an actual court case where the OFSC was convicted and required to pay any damages.

I think there was one in Montreal where a land owner was paid out a settlement.

Can anyone post an actual settlement that has happened ?

ANYONE ?

You will never see the settlements paid out. Too many copy cats out there.

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So can someone explain why the classic permit can be sold at a lesser rate? What does that money buy? Just asking.

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Is there a right answer to the permit fee question? What is the right price point? There are so many factors that play a part in maintaining the trails, it's not just about the economy and how much can be afforded. If the fee were lower; would that solve the problems? Is more riders he answer or does it add to the problem? What kind of riders would be attracted? Where would these additional permits be purchased? If you add riders in those high traffic areas; what do you think will happen to the insurance rates and the condition of the trails? Is the additional revenue from the increased number of permits sold enough to offset additional costs?

One aspect I think that has not been given adequate attention is the affect fewer permit sales has on local businesses, particularly in those small communities. There was a time when many small camps counted on all of us to keep them going during the winter months, there are far fewer this year than even 5 years ago. Maybe there should be a tax or fee on those businesses that benefit most from our contributions to help offset permit prices? The Wawa Motor Lodge comes to mind for me.

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Look no farther than this article to see why liability insurance premiums are as high as they are in Ontario.

Partial quote.....

"At least, that's the hope of a Toronto personal injury lawyer after he helped win an undisclosed financial settlement from the province for a Toronto-area man paralyzed after a swimming incident at the Pinery.”(Provincial Park).

http://www.lfpress.c...0/19527906.html

I remember reading about this and thinking how ridiculous it was. The mouth of the Nottawasaga river is part of the Provincial Park. If you walk out from the shore into the river it slopes off gradually and then suddenly drops off. There aren't any signs there except on the bay side they warn of undertow and current. Prime for a law suit should somebody go wading and go for a sudden dunk.

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Look no farther than this article to see why liability insurance premiums are as high as they are in Ontario.

Partial quote.....

"At least, that's the hope of a Toronto personal injury lawyer after he helped win an undisclosed financial settlement from the province for a Toronto-area man paralyzed after a swimming incident at the Pinery.”(Provincial Park).

http://www.lfpress.c...0/19527906.html

These are the type of law suits that shouldn't exist! It is unfortunate that it happened but accept responsibility for the action that you took!

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I remember reading about this and thinking how ridiculous it was. The mouth of the Nottawasaga river is part of the Provincial Park. If you walk out from the shore into the river it slopes off gradually and then suddenly drops off. There aren't any signs there except on the bay side they warn of undertow and current. Prime for a law suit should somebody go wading and go for a sudden dunk.

At this rate we’ll have nothing but signs everywhere warning us or telling us what we can’t do. Like a huge nanny state. No doubt will begin to interfere with our enjoyment of public spaces, well I suppose it alreay is. Crazy and foolish for Ontario to continue down this slippery slope in my opinion. These lawsuits are getting way out of hand.Time for the government to take the bull by the hands, but doubt that willl ever happen.

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So can someone explain why the classic permit can be sold at a lesser rate? What does that money buy? Just asking.

It's to keep people with older sleds in the system and to help those like myself who have a second sled for the kids or friends to ride once in a while bringing new people in to the system.

The idea is, older sleds don't ride as much or as far, so give them a bit of a break and keep them riding.

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It's to keep people with older sleds in the system and to help those like myself who have a second sled for the kids or friends to ride once in a while bringing new people in to the system.

The idea is, older sleds don't ride as much or as far, so give them a bit of a break and keep them riding.

I understand that. My point is that the OFSC doesn't have any problem lowering the price tag. Next season the "regional" permit will allow everyone to ride at a discounted rate. I do believe there are better ways and ideas out there but who is listening?

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I understand that. My point is that the OFSC doesn't have any problem lowering the price tag. Next season the "regional" permit will allow everyone to ride at a discounted rate. I do believe there are better ways and ideas out there but who is listening?

I think the OFSC is hoping a lot of us still buy a full permit. I'm not sure what I'm going to do, until I find out what a regional permit actually covers. I don't normally ride much beyond D2 and D3.

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I think the OFSC is hoping a lot of us still buy a full permit. I'm not sure what I'm going to do, until I find out what a regional permit actually covers. I don't normally ride much beyond D2 and D3.

Then why offer? This is a step backwards IMO!

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Next season the "regional" permit will allow everyone to ride at a discounted rate.

I am sort of new to sledding, what's this permit, specific districts or areas, say only D9, or only D5 or is it more linked to just Milverton Club Trails for example?

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