Groomer fire???

[Fred Quimby]

Totally separate from the MTO is MOL. Doing a check of your equipment before use is a requirement for MOL and part of due diligence. If a groomer operator is paid and not properly trained on what to look for on the equipment prior to use and sign off on that inspection each time it goes out we are vulnerable in the event of an injury to the groomer operator.

Not quite. As a Health and Safety rep this is an area that I am familiar with. The MTO does in fact require a daily circle check of your vehicle to be completed and signed off on. This log is to be kept with the vehicle at all times and there is no exception as to when the log can be omitted. The Ministry of Labor requires no daily log to be filled out at all. They base everything on the Occupational Health and Safety Act and Regulations. There is nothing in the act about daily circle checks or vehicle logs. However, if there is a "workplace" incident of serious nature such as a critical injury .. the MOL could gather as evidence the vehicle log books to determine if the operator in fact ensured that the equipment or vehicle was in good order at a specific point in time(commencement of shift or project), which is a requirement under the OH&S Act. Almost a catch22 they won't go as far as to say a log book book they will demand to see proof of equipment readiness or certification. We just had a discussion about this at work this morning actually..

Maybe we are talking about the same principle.

Any club volunteer is technically a "worker" under the act and responsible to the club as management and to themselves to follow prescribed safety practices. The clubs.."employer" is responsible to provide training, safety equipment, re-training, supervision by a competent person and documentation. The fine(s) are astronomical if there is an issue.

Here is the decal of MTO inspection:

Yellow is annual and where you might see an orange one..they are semi-annual

There are ones for buses, trailers, combos, trucks with different axle weights, tractors, etc

[soupkids]

Going to be hard to find a log book for the groomer in question I think

[Mossy]

Fred, I would look into that! that is a safety sticker for highway use. It shouldn't apply to a groomer. I could be wrong but a groomer should be considered off road use.

[Mossy]

Going to be hard to find a log book for the groomer in question I think

There will be copies of the book filed somewhere.

[soupkids]

Jeezzzz, just trying to lighten the mood in here a little.

I'm glad the operator got out ok and it was only property damage done.

Situation could have been a lot worse in may ways.

[Fred Quimby]

Fred, I would look into that! that is a safety sticker for highway use. It shouldn't apply to a groomer. I could be wrong but a groomer should be considered off road use.

Gotcha... and agree..I am wondering why we cert ours? Maybe as they do travel roads for stretches at a time? I am going to look into this.

[Wildbill]

Ours have commercial inspection stickers on them? Why would some be excluded?

Not trying to argue but ours do have yellow inspection decals .. I guess the point is check your fire extinguishers as part of your daily circle check of the vehicle. There is still an onus on the operator to ensure his/ her equipment is in good order.

If you are getting MTO inspections on an unlicensed vehicle you are wasting money.

[dweese]

Jeezzzz, just trying to lighten the mood in here a little.

I'm glad the operator got out ok and it was only property damage done.

Situation could have been a lot worse in may ways.

Mood is light don't worry, but there is some interesting discussions coming out here.

[Classic]

Fred, I would look into that! that is a safety sticker for highway use. It shouldn't apply to a groomer. I could be wrong but a groomer should be considered off road use.

And if you're talking about farm tractors, there is nothing required.

[Fred Quimby]

And if you're talking about farm tractors, there is nothing required.

Even if a groomer travels a road for considerable distance?

Trying to figure out why ours are stickered? 180's and New Hollands..

[Fred Quimby]

Mood is light don't worry, but there is some interesting discussions coming out here.

No worries..all is light and fluffy..like the snow that's coming..!!

Just trying to find answers!

[02Sled]

Not quite. As a Health and Safety rep this is an area that I am familiar with. The MTO does in fact require a daily circle check of your vehicle to be completed and signed off on. This log is to be kept with the vehicle at all times and there is no exception as to when the log can be omitted. The Ministry of Labor requires no daily log to be filled out at all. They base everything on the Occupational Health and Safety Act and Regulations. There is nothing in the act about daily circle checks or vehicle logs. However, if there is a "workplace" incident of serious nature such as a critical injury .. the MOL could gather as evidence the vehicle log books to determine if the operator in fact ensured that the equipment or vehicle was in good order at a specific point in time(commencement of shift or project), which is a requirement under the OH&S Act. Almost a catch22 they won't go as far as to say a log book book they will demand to see proof of equipment readiness or certification. We just had a discussion about this at work this morning actually..

Maybe we are talking about the same principle.

Any club volunteer is technically a "worker" under the act and responsible to the club as management and to themselves to follow prescribed safety practices. The clubs.."employer" is responsible to provide training, safety equipment, re-training, supervision by a competent person and documentation. The fine(s) are astronomical if there is an issue.

Here is the decal of MTO inspection:

Yellow is annual and where you might see an orange one..they are semi-annual

There are ones for buses, trailers, combos, trucks with different axle weights, tractors, etc

Hi Fred. I believe we are on the same page just using different phrases. I too am very familiar with the MOL. I chaired our Health & Safety Comnmittee meetings for 15 years at my prervious job and am certified level 1 and level 2 under the OHSA. The employer is responsible to insure a safe work place and that includes all safety guards in place and in the equipment in good working condition. Don't know about any inspection sticker for a vehicle other than the MTO sticker you have shown and don't believe it is applicable to a groomer.

If there are significant violations they MOL can impose a Work Well Audit on an employer. In order to ensure we dotted all our I's and crossed all our T's we chose to perform our own Work Well Audit. I have found that when an MOL inspector comes on site the one thing they really like to see is evidence of due diligence. That evidence of due diligence can at times save your butt if there is an incident whether it be with something as basic as a ladder or as signficant as a groomer. What I suggested was that if you have a checklist sheet that the groomer operator goes over, initials and dates indicating he has checked these aspects and that they are in good working order the you keep these on file you can demonstrate due diligence. If something is noticed as needing attention and then addressed this too can be logged which demonstrates the employers active participation in maintaining a safe workplace.

[02Sled]

Jeezzzz, just trying to lighten the mood in here a little.

I'm glad the operator got out ok and it was only property damage done.

Situation could have been a lot worse in may ways.

You are right soupkid... the most important factor above and beyond any is nobody was hurt

[bbakernbay]

Any club volunteer is technically a "worker" under the act and responsible to the club as management and to themselves to follow prescribed safety practices. The clubs.."employer" is responsible to provide training, safety equipment, re-training, supervision by a competent person and documentation. The fine(s) are astronomical if there is an issue.

Fred, I don't think that reference to "Any Club Volunteer is technically a "Worker" under the Act ..." is correct based upon our meetings several years ago with MOL after the death of a groomer operator in Parry Sound.

We were told that if the 'Volunteer' is not paid, then they don't come under OHSA.

Paid includes honourariums or free Tree Permit but a reasonable kilometre payment for travelling to and from is okay.

We had started down the road of paying an honourarium based upon hours grooming by everyone involved and dividing those hours into a budgeted amount of $$.

All we do know is reimburse for travel.That is a No No and makes them 'Workers' which our Board said No Way - We don't want to be responsible for OHSA Regs.

[dweese]

We were told that if the 'Volunteer' is not paid, then they don't come under OHSA

If your a Volunteer using equipment supplied to you by the club, than yes it's under OHSA.

WSIB, would not pay should the volunteer be hurt as they are unpaid, but you must follow OHSA regs paid or not paid if you are supplying the volunteer equipment to use.

That we had to be trained on when I worked as a volunteer at a ski hill and was operating snowmaking and groomers.

[Fred Quimby]

If your a Volunteer using equipment supplied to you by the club, than yes it's under OHSA.

WSIB, would not pay should the volunteer be hurt as they are unpaid, but you must follow OHSA regs paid or not paid if you are supplying the volunteer equipment to use.

That we had to be trained on when I worked as a volunteer at a ski hill and was operating snowmaking and groomers.

You are correct Dave.

A "worker" can be a volunteer in the loose term of the word. As an example our club has work sleds, tracked and non tracked ATV's, chainsaws, loping saws, a myriad of other tools plus a full mechanical shop with welding equipment. We have to abide by "the act". As soon as you solicit a person to perform work on behalf of your club/ organization and supply any tools or supplies or equipment, you become the employer and the volunteer becomes the worker. And no..WSIB is not applicable to unpaid staff, but the same principles apply. That came into the act around 2010.

Each Fall you should have a refresher on any equipment that a volunteer is likely to be using..sign off on them and have them sign a training record that they were trained or refreshed. Same for groomer operators.

While the OHSA seems pretty stiff..all you need to be doing is show due diligence instead of gross negligence, and its a fair assumption that you are doing fine. The biggest thing is the paper trail of following SOPS, policies, generally accepted principles, and safe practices. As an example that is one reason the OFSC came out with the binder " Health and Safety Process Development Guidebook."

[bbakernbay]

That's not what we were told by the Ministry of Labour but it is probably a good idea to check with them again.

[dweese]

That's not what we were told by the Ministry of Labour but it is probably a good idea to check with them again.

That problem is and it's what we ran in to at the ski hill 10 years. You need to be very clear in your question to MOL. The person answer your question has no idea of what we do, so they don't know what the volunteers are doing.

I'm sure if an MOL inspector spent a day on a groomer they could come up with a bunch of stuff we're not doing.

[Fred Quimby]

I would bet dollars to donuts that if you had twelve MOL inspectors all in separate rooms..asked them the same question..you'd get twelve different answers. The act leaves a lot of room for interpretation. In some cases manipulation.

One thing we do now at a scene is to wrap barrier tape around everything. We had the MOL showing up at scenes and poking around. With the barrier tape up..they are not allowed to cross it.

Just re read the section of the act as it pertains to types of workers..

The OHSA clearly identifies two types of workers. Those that are paid and are classified as ordinary worker, and volunteer worker where the only compensation is for that of expenses or mileage or an honorarium - Ont Reg 385/96 P.733

[PISTON LAKE CRUISER]

Not quite. As a Health and Safety rep this is an area that I am familiar with. The MTO does in fact require a daily circle check of your vehicle to be completed and signed off on. This log is to be kept with the vehicle at all times and there is no exception as to when the log can be omitted. The Ministry of Labor requires no daily log to be filled out at all. They base everything on the Occupational Health and Safety Act and Regulations. There is nothing in the act about daily circle checks or vehicle logs. However, if there is a "workplace" incident of serious nature such as a critical injury .. the MOL could gather as evidence the vehicle log books to determine if the operator in fact ensured that the equipment or vehicle was in good order at a specific point in time(commencement of shift or project), which is a requirement under the OH&S Act. Almost a catch22 they won't go as far as to say a log book book they will demand to see proof of equipment readiness or certification. We just had a discussion about this at work this morning actually..

Maybe we are talking about the same principle.

Any club volunteer is technically a "worker" under the act and responsible to the club as management and to themselves to follow prescribed safety practices. The clubs.."employer" is responsible to provide training, safety equipment, re-training, supervision by a competent person and documentation. The fine(s) are astronomical if there is an issue.

Here is the decal of MTO inspection:

Yellow is annual and where you might see an orange one..they are semi-annual

There are ones for buses, trailers, combos, trucks with different axle weights, tractors, etc

Fred, I believe that what the MTO means when using the word "tractor" in conjunction with Manditory Safety Stickers is really the powered portion of a tractor trailer known in the tranportation industry as a tractor. Someone in your club may have mistaken this to mean tractor as in farm equipment tractor. The yellow manditory safety stickers are only required on licensed (plated) commercial vehicles such as trucks and trailers. I think the key word is licensed.

I stand to be corrected but I believe that if the groomer drag is equipped with a slow moving vehicle sign and proper lighting that will suffice in the eyes of the police or MTO enforcement officer.

[Fred Quimby]

Fred, I believe that what the MTO means when using the word "tractor" in conjunction with Manditory Safety Stickers is really the powered portion of a tractor trailer known in the tranportation industry as a tractor. Someone in your club may have mistaken this to mean tractor as in farm equipment tractor. The yellow manditory safety stickers are only required on licensed (plated) commercial vehicles such as trucks and trailers. I think the key word is licensed.

I stand to be corrected but I believe that if the groomer drag is equipped with a slow moving vehicle sign and proper lighting that will suffice in the eyes of the police or MTO enforcement officer.

That's what I am wondering?? Misinterpretation?

[Wildbill]

The MOL does count an Honorarium as an employee volenteer fire departments have found that out the hard way. Townships have taken it to court and lost. Under the law I do not believe that an MTO sticker can even be legally attached to an unlicensed vehicle.

That being said our forklifts are certified annually as lifting devices perhaps a mechanical shop that services your fleet may have invented something similiar.

[bbakernbay]

I'm agreed on the honourarium naking a volunteer a 'Worker' under OHSA but the Club supplying a sledge hammer or screwgun surely doesn't make that Volunteer a 'Worker' under the Act.

[dweese]

I'm agreed on the honourarium naking a volunteer a 'Worker' under OHSA but the Club supplying a sledge hammer or screwgun surely doesn't make that Volunteer a 'Worker' under the Act.

That goes back to what Fred said, take 12 inspectors get 12 different answers.

[Fred Quimby]

I'm agreed on the honourarium naking a volunteer a 'Worker' under OHSA but the Club supplying a sledge hammer or screwgun surely doesn't make that Volunteer a 'Worker' under the Act.

As I mentioned in post 44.. The OHSA does identify two types of workers. Those that are paid which are called ordinary workers and those which are voluntary workers. The act applies to both types. The only exemption that applies to voluntary workers is that they do not form a joint health and safety committee with management. Wildbill gave an excellent example in volunteer Firefighters, whereupon there are numerous sections in the OHSA that apply to firefighting and protective clothing...something that becomes very costly for small hole in the wall communities..they would rather for obvious reasons do things on the cheap but can't because of the need to train, and equip under the act. Then we get into section 21 guidance notes...another game all together.

One thing I would NOT be doing is calling the MOL asking a whole raft of questions. It might give them a new Winter project which no club needs. Just saying.