Classic Trail Permits - Is it Fair and Financially Sustainable?

[Viperules700]

Great points ski. I believe we are down to 34000km being groomed this winter. Permits are higher here, since our fuel, grooming equipment and liability insurance is higher in Ontario. The full season trail permit is at it's limit. If you split Ontario into four regions the north will feel the pain, since riders won't head north if they have snow at home and the north will have very few permit sales. So keeping it as one area is the only solution. We have road tax on our fuel and I wish the Feds, would give more of it back to powersports users, especially since very few of us ride the roads.

[dweese]

Its still cheaper than any other winter sport, if you take out the price of your personal equipment.

[skidooboy]

Great points ski. I believe we are down to 34000km being groomed this winter. Permits are higher here, since our fuel, grooming equipment and liability insurance is higher in Ontario. The full season trail permit is at it's limit. If you split Ontario into four regions the north will feel the pain, since riders won't head north if they have snow at home and the north will have very few permit sales. So keeping it as one area is the only solution. We have road tax on our fuel and I wish the Feds, would give more of it back to powersports users, especially since very few of us ride the roads.

using your scenario, especially this season, more people would buy northwest permits to get in early season rides. and subsequently last year when wawa and dub and cochrane, hearst ect... were open in mid april, more people would buy there, for late season. the only region i see suffering in this scenario might be southern ontario. their seasons are always shorter than the other regions but, they have more purchasers to draw from so, there funding shouldnt be compromised.

dweese, i dont see how sledding is cheaper than say ice fishing, or snowshoeing, cross country skiing (when you take out personal equipement.) ect....

believe me i know the permit cost is the most cost effective part of the sport but, if more permits were sold at several different fee's... EVERYONES fee would be more inline with what would be considered "fair".

last year, like every year since 1998 we bought seasonal permits before the cut off, we rode manitouwadge with no grooming twice, then rode dubreuilville for fishing 2-3 times, total real groomed open trail mileage, about 20kms one way to the fishing area. you can argue it is my choice where i choose to ride. but, if i choose to ride like this, why would i need to buy a permit, if i am not riding groomed trails in the ofsc footprint? i'm riding offtrail bush roads, and going fishing with equipment in tow.

in my scenario EVERYONE BUYS PERMITS, at several different costs, and spreads it out fair for everyone. because no mater what all sled owners say.... at some point they will ride the groomed trails for some distance.

if you make it more cost effective, you will increase useage and permit sales, to those who may not otherwise purchase a permit. this helps the WHOLE SYSTEM. ski

[02Sled]

using your scenario, especially this season, more people would buy northwest permits to get in early season rides. and subsequently last year when wawa and dub and cochrane, hearst ect... were open in mid april, more people would buy there, for late season. the only region i see suffering in this scenario might be southern ontario. their seasons are always shorter than the other regions but, they have more purchasers to draw from so, there funding shouldnt be compromised.

dweese, i dont see how sledding is cheaper than say ice fishing, or snowshoeing, cross country skiing (when you take out personal equipement.) ect....

believe me i know the permit cost is the most cost effective part of the sport but, if more permits were sold at several different fee's... EVERYONES fee would be more inline with what would be considered "fair".

last year, like every year since 1998 we bought seasonal permits before the cut off, we rode manitouwadge with no grooming twice, then rode dubreuilville for fishing 2-3 times, total real groomed open trail mileage, about 20kms one way to the fishing area. you can argue it is my choice where i choose to ride. but, if i choose to ride like this, why would i need to buy a permit, if i am not riding groomed trails in the ofsc footprint? i'm riding offtrail bush roads, and going fishing with equipment in tow.

in my scenario EVERYONE BUYS PERMITS, at several different costs, and spreads it out fair for everyone. because no mater what all sled owners say.... at some point they will ride the groomed trails for some distance.

if you make it more cost effective, you will increase useage and permit sales, to those who may not otherwise purchase a permit. this helps the WHOLE SYSTEM. ski

I have always believed that if the purchase of a trail permit was combined with the licencing of sled the numbers would increase significantly and drive the cost per permit down. There would however be extreme challenges in the structure you suggested of all the multiple rates. For example how do you have a rate for 12 to 18? Since the permit is attached to the sled what happens when you want to let your 45 year old brother ride the sled for a 12 - 18 rider. Do you bring the birth certificate in with the ownership to prove the age of the rider? I like the concept of a family permit for multiple sleds but then it would also be hard to regulate. Couples where the wife does not take her husbands name or it becomes hyphenated, ownership questions of sleds or the kids with the fathers name or hyphenated.

The administration and associated costs would likely drive the costs higher. The permit sellers may not be prepared to take on the complexities since there isn't any real benefit in it for them.

[Krusty]

Lots of heads where the sun don't shine on this one IMHO. Since the classic permit became available you suddenly see the older hardware out on the trails again WITH A PERMIT on them. For years there were a number of older sleds riding around & if you paid attention the majority of them were running without any permit. Everyone loves to whine every year about the $200.00 it costs to buy a permit (which everyone knows is a good deal anyway) and along comes an idea of enticing all kinds of people who own older sleds to buy a permit at a reduced rate and a whole bunch of whinning starts again. Bottom line we definatly are seeing an increase in older sleds on the trails, sleds that weren't being used cause they were too old for the big 1000km rides or whatever and now the ofsc is seeing some revenue for it. How can this possibly be a bad thing? If the $200 is such a big deal to all the whinners out there why not take up cross country skiing of figure skating or mall walking....sob.sob sniff sniff. This of course is just my Krusty opinion

[dweese]

Lots of heads where the sun don't shine on this one IMHO. Since the classic permit became available you suddenly see the older hardware out on the trails again WITH A PERMIT on them. For years there were a number of older sleds riding around & if you paid attention the majority of them were running without any permit. Everyone loves to whine every year about the $200.00 it costs to buy a permit (which everyone knows is a good deal anyway) and along comes an idea of enticing all kinds of people who own older sleds to buy a permit at a reduced rate and a whole bunch of whinning starts again. Bottom line we definatly are seeing an increase in older sleds on the trails, sleds that weren't being used cause they were too old for the big 1000km rides or whatever and now the ofsc is seeing some revenue for it. How can this possibly be a bad thing? If the $200 is such a big deal to all the whinners out there why not take up cross country skiing of figure skating or mall walking....sob.sob sniff sniff. This of course is just my Krusty opinion

Bingo

Sorry but ya, what he said.

The only other way to make it fair would be for us to pay to have a intall GPS trackers on our sleds that bill us on a per km bases.

[Fred Quimby]

Bingo

Sorry but ya, what he said.

The only other way to make it fair would be for us to pay to have a intall GPS trackers on our sleds that bill us on a per km bases.

Don't tell Mc Guilty of that or we would be buying transponders next. Then sell the trails to a private conglomerate and bill us to death anyways and have the private entity really get rich...ohyeah we have the 407 already.

[02Sled]

Or how about a pay for what you use system. If the full permit is $200.00 and the season is say 3 months or 90 days. That's $2.22 per day. Just stop by your local dealer and buy a trail pass when you want to ride. Going this weekend... that will be Saturday and Sunday $4.44 please. Next weekend $4.44 again. Somehting like a lift pass for skiing. You can get a morning or an afternoon or 4 hours begining at a specific time.

Sorry but try and police all of these scenarios. There are enough people out there cheating the system already. The pass is in my pocket because it's too cold to put it on. You know full well they are passing it around. I have them put it on the sled trail side. Give them more variables and they will give you more ways to cheat.

[Fred Quimby]

While I do agree with a lot of the ideas here, and there are some good ideas..I don't know how the OFSC can even begin to manage a more complex system then what is in place now? They screw up permits already (at least the on line ordering process), screw up the interactive mapping, the list goes on.

I feel bad for the guys out on patrol and the good volunteers who run the clubs. Trying to administer passes, collect money, then out on the trails trying to check passes, getting hassled, lied to. Ugh! Grow up!

Just my personal opinion. I would rather see the pass be built right into my valtag. Done. One damn sticker, and a must have for any sled on a prescribed public trail. Administer the money back to the home club. It could be done.

No more excuses from somebody on a trail "I was just going to my ice hut on the lake (47 Km's away..on three different trails). You ride a trail, you buy a pass. Period.

[02Sled]

While I do agree with a lot of the ideas here, and there are some good ideas..I don't know how the OFSC can even begin to manage a more complex system then what is in place now? They screw up permits already (at least the on line ordering process), screw up the interactive mapping, the list goes on.

I feel bad for the guys out on patrol and the good volunteers who run the clubs. Trying to administer passes, collect money, then out on the trails trying to check passes, getting hassled, lied to. Ugh! Grow up!

Just my personal opinion. I would rather see the pass be built right into my valtag. Done. One damn sticker, and a must have for any sled on a prescribed public trail. Administer the money back to the home club. It could be done.

No more excuses from somebody on a trail "I was just going to my ice hut on the lake (47 Km's away..on three different trails). You ride a trail, you buy a pass. Period.

I agree... last year I found two sleds same family on a trail linking two lakes. No trail passes. They told me they only ride on the ice. "But you're not on the ice now?" "But we are on the way too the ice... good point." I carry my digital camera and take a picture of the sled showing the registration numbers and tell them where they can get a permit locally since they didn't have anything to buy one with on them. If I check with the permit seller and they have a permit end of scenario. I don't even really get into the consequences of not having one but explain why they need one.

It tends to work since usually they know the potential consequences and that I have pictures of the sleds. I ran into the same two sleds the next weekend. They waved me down to show me the permits on their windshields. It works. But yea I like the part where you register your sled with the MTO and pay for a licence sticker you pay for a trail pass. Only a guess but if every sled licenced in Ontarion paid up I bet the clubs would be able to have the best trails ever imagined or the cost of a permit would drop dramatically.

[Fred Quimby]

You could still have a visitors pass if somebody was from out of Province/ Country. Linking the pass to the valtag should easily be attainable. I agree 02..I bet the pass numbers would climb dramatically, or the fine for no pass, no valtag would be hefty. Still you would see some try to dodge the system. Probably the same who risk a ticket by not having a valtag on their vehicles too.

[skidooer]

Sorry but try and police all of these scenarios.

If implemented correctly, printable permits make policing easier than the current system, while enabling all other kinds of features like location-based and/or time-based purchasing, without any real costs to the organization.

[dweese]

Don't tell Mc Guilty of that or we would be buying transponders next. Then sell the trails to a private conglomerate and bill us to death anyways and have the private entity really get rich...ohyeah we have the 407 already.

How soon people forget, the 407 mess was thanks to Mike Haris and the PC party.

[Fred Quimby]

How soon people forget, the 407 mess was thanks to Mike Haris and the PC party.

Not forgotten..but Harris is not the Premier now and Mc Guilty is scheming for cash! It was also Peterson who spent money like a drunken sailor and took Ontario into the red. Not to forget his role in Meech Lake and the Patti Starr mess!

[dweese]

they all scheme for cash...

[Fred Quimby]

they all scheme for cash...

Ain't that the truth!

[02Sled]

If implemented correctly, printable permits make policing easier than the current system, while enabling all other kinds of features like location-based and/or time-based purchasing, without any real costs to the organization.

So how would you stop people from making duplicate copies, modifying them etc.? Heck people forge money. With copiers, scanners, editing software, bar code software you could print your own without even having to copy one. When you print online tickets to concerts, events etc. They scan and validate the bar code as you enter. That updates the database to reflect it has been used so the next person showing up with the same ticket number is stopped. People complain now about being stopped to have their paperwork checked on the trail. Can you imagine if everyone had to stop and get the bar code on their paper trail permit scanned. Then the hand held scanner would need satelite communications to validate the information. Big, big cost to equip eveyone with these. How do you stick the piece of paper to the front of the sled for visibility and what do you do when you have snow, wet snow or rain hit the piece of paper and render it unscannable. Distorted bar codes don't scan well.

Printable permits nice idea. Just not viable at this point. Give it a few years as technology moves forward and you never know. You want to get high tech... go with an RF ID tag. You buy an RF ID tag and attach it to your sled for life. There is a picture of the sled in the database along with all of the pertinent information. Year, make, model, VIN. Something like you give your insurance company a VIN number and they can tell you all the details of the sled. Engine size etc. You pay for your permit and the dataabase is updated to reflect that the RF ID tag is now paid up for that season. Now those out on trail patrol have a hand held RF scanner. They connected to the OFSC website that morning and updated the data on the hand held. As you approach on your sled the tag is read and the hand held either shows green for good and red for bad or beeps once for good and twice for bad. It also shows a picture of your sled to ensure the tag is on the right sled. At least that takes away the need for satelite communications. Much harder to forge as there would be the visuals of the sled as well.

[dweese]

You want to get high tech... go with an RF ID tag. You buy an RF ID tag and attach it to your sled for life. There is a picture of the sled in the database along with all of the pertinent information. Year, make, model, VIN. Something like you give your insurance company a VIN number and they can tell you all the details of the sled. Engine size etc. You pay for your permit and the dataabase is updated to reflect that the RF ID tag is now paid up for that season. Now those out on trail patrol have a hand held RF scanner. They connected to the OFSC website that morning and updated the data on the hand held. As you approach on your sled the tag is read and the hand held either shows green for good and red for bad or beeps once for good and twice for bad. It also shows a picture of your sled to ensure the tag is on the right sled. At least that takes away the need for satelite communications. Much harder to forge as there would be the visuals of the sled as well.

Now thats the way to do it...

That would open up so many ways you could buy a permit. You could do a buy as you ride, where just before you go riding you jump online spend $10 for a day pass and off you go. Great for those Sunday riders who just want to take a spin around the block, like my dad, where he is staying with in one district or club. And you could still have the season pass for those of us who rider every chance we can and will trailer for hours to find snow.

Now the limiting factor would be keeping the tag reader up todate. Cell connection would work in most places, but there would have to be something for those in the middle of nowhere.

[Fred Quimby]

Or embed the information into your DL. Each trail patrol could have a reader that you could swipe your DL through and the permit/sled/registered owner comes up. MTO has them now. Reader could be updated prior to each patrol so database info is current. Youngsters with a snowmobile lic could have the same info embedded into a mag strip the same as on a DL.

[02Sled]

Now thats the way to do it...

That would open up so many ways you could buy a permit. You could do a buy as you ride, where just before you go riding you jump online spend $10 for a day pass and off you go. Great for those Sunday riders who just want to take a spin around the block, like my dad, where he is staying with in one district or club. And you could still have the season pass for those of us who rider every chance we can and will trailer for hours to find snow.

Now the limiting factor would be keeping the tag reader up todate. Cell connection would work in most places, but there would have to be something for those in the middle of nowhere.

This can be done over a phone line if need be. You drop the RF reader in a cradle and dial into the OFSC. The script could be automated to update the HHT. The problem is the cost associated with the technology, the batteries to keep the HHT's running as batteries don't last as long in the cold and a few other challenges. But given the speed at which technology leaps forward achievable.

[skidooer]

Give it a few years as technology moves forward and you never know.

What technology needs to advance to make it viable? I very carefully chose technology that would integrate into the old and existing infrastructure.

Sure, RFID tags and GPS loggers are far more interesting, but let's be realistic here.

This can be done over a phone line if need be.

The beauty of the printed permit is that it contains all of the information on the permit itself, mathematically guaranteed secure against fraud. People in the far north don't want to be messing around with network connections. Maybe someday, but not today.

[skidooboy]

here's a novel idea.... stop putting permits on sleds, and put them with the person. like a drivers license, fishing, or hunting license. each person needs a permit. a sledding license if you will. resident and non residents alike. ski

[dweese]

The beauty of the printed permit is that it contains all of the information on the permit itself, mathematically guaranteed secure against fraud. People in the far north don't want to be messing around with network connections. Maybe someday, but not today.

When you are talking printed permit, you mean for day use people only right? Something quick and easy so they don't need to find a shop somewhere that sells permits? To me that would make sense.. But not for those of us to buy full season permits... The current sticker is still the easiest way to go in my mind.

And linking it in with the MTO sticker would be great too, however, MTO would want a fee for doing it, and there are some people who do licence a sled for only for the reason of going ice fishing and that's all they do with it. So they have no need for a permit, so what do you do about them?

The current system works, with the lowest cost to the OFSC. Its a thin line on how much we spend to ensure permit usage with out spending more than we are loosing to the freeloaders.

[skidooer]

When you are talking printed permit, you mean for day use people only right?

It could be used for anything: From by-the-day, the entire season, tied to just a single club or district, or whatever billing methods you can dream up. The information is attached to the permit at the time of purchase, so every permit can be sold on different terms, without any additional human-effort.

There's another currently active thread about someone tresspassing to get to the Quebec trails. Let him print a permit that is only valid for that specific trail for $10 per day or something. It's more money than we're making now. He's happy, the OFSC is happy, everyone wins.

[dweese]

There's another currently active thread about someone tresspassing to get to the Quebec trails. Let him print a permit that is only valid for that specific trail for $10 per day or something. It's more money than we're making now. He's happy, the OFSC is happy, everyone wins.

That guy is a troll and I bet he doesn't even sled. But that being said, buying trail specific or club permits isn't a half bad idea.