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Trouble With the STOP Program?


revrnd

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Has anyone heard of issues in other areas of the province?

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Bro sent me this link:

Click

Has anyone heard of issues in other areas of the province?

I haven't heard anything about it. BUT !...... reading the article; if they have no authority and completely pay there own way for the "privilege" of standing in the cold like eunuchs then why would they stay ??

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http://www.sootoday....oryNumber=50405

Saultites won't be seeing much of a new crest for Snowmobile Trail Officer Patrol (STOP) officers, says Rick MacLeod, former local coordinator for the program.

There are no fully qualified STOP officers left in Sault Ste. Marie, MacLeod tells SooToday.com

"I was the Sault Ste. Marie area coordinator of STOP, until a couple of months ago, when myself and all seven other Sault Ste. Marie STOP officers quit," MacLeod says.

The only representation STOP has left in the Sault is one probational trainee on the trails.

In fact, says MacLeod, STOP officers are quitting in droves all across the province.

"Basically, STOP officers have the authority to get cold on the trails," he says. "STOP no longer has authority on roads, lakes, school or park properties, or anywhere 31 meters or more from an OFSC trail unless with police."

Macleod says the OPP had a problem with STOP doing the same job as the OPP, but for free, and the Ontario Federation of Snowmobile Clubs (OFSC) mainly wanted the STOP officers to make sure everyone on the trails had trail passes.

So the OPP changed the jurisdiction of STOP officers to within 30 meters of the trail.

They removed STOP officers' authority to arrest for fail to identify.

They removed STOP officers' authority to speed to catch a speeder.

They removed STOP officers' badges.

"If someone sees STOP, and rides 31 meters off the trail, STOP officers are not allowed to deal with them," says MacLeod. "Most accidents, and snowmobile deaths happen off the trail."

Earlier this week, with considerable fanfare, the OPP and OFSC unveiled a new STOP logo in Orillia.

But as Snowmobile Safety Week got underway in Ontario, there were a lot fewer STOP officers on the trails than there were at this time last year, says MacLeod.

MacLeod says 58 STOP officers have quit in recent months, leaving 75 STOP officers currently volunteering province-wide.

Sault Ste Marie has lost eight officers, with a combined 97 years of volunteer snowmobile enforcement, says MacLeod.

These officers used their own snowmobiles and they paid for their gas, maintenance, and trail pass purchases themselves, he said.

Is this UNION BS again? :coffeenose:

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Is this UNION BS again? :coffeenose:

Huh?

Are the Teamsters or CAW trying to organize them?

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I had heard about this earlier when I was trying to find out more information about the program.

It has been almost impossible to find any information about the program and numerous emails to OFSC contacts have either gone unanswered or have been responded to with promises of followup which never materialize.

I specifically tried to make contact with people about the STOP program at the AGM and followed up with emails. Still no 'real' information.

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Huh?

Are the Teamsters or CAW trying to organize them?

Not the STOP officers :headbang:

But the Police Union

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OK, now I see where you're coming from.

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Why are they taking the powers away???

Where some power tripping too much???

I just don't get it

IMO STOP program is one of the most valuable programs the OFSC has :coffeenose:

This can not be good IMO

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Nothing to do with unions of any sort, how would you like it if someone was doing your job for free???

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Nothing to do with unions of any sort, how would you like it if someone was doing your job for free???

People do my job for free all the time. It works out well because I can utilize their resources, freeing me up to work on other tasks. It is not like Police have any kind shortage of work that needs to be done.

Edit: I forgot to add that the OPP already runs an official auxiliary force of officers that work for free, so free police work is nothing new or exclusive to the OFSC.

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Is this UNION BS again? :coffeenose:

Not Union BS but rather the OPP Management in this case trying to protect thier turf. Rather than working along with the STOP Provincial Offence Officers they seem to be trying to push them out. Unfortunately affecting the safety of all who use the OFSC Trail System. The OPP doesnt have nor will ever have adequate resources to patrol the trails to the level and extent that the STOP Program had until recently.

Toronto Police have in similar fashion pushed to and were sucessful in taking over the budget of the TTC for policing the TTC and pushed out the TTC's Provinical Offence Officers in similar fashion.

This is a management thing, not a union thing so save the union bashing.

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Going out on a limb here, but the article doesn't appear to be reported 'with balance'. It's one person's version of events.

There may be more to it - who knows. It would have been nice to hear from OPP and OFSC in the article. Or, at least make an attempt to contact them.

The OFSC website, for example, does not indicate a reduction in powers. It's reproduced here because the history of the program should be documented, and the people instrumental in its development recognized.

http://www.ofsc.on.ca/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=161&Itemid=151

About S.T.O.P.

Snowmobile Trail Officer Patrol (S.T.O.P.) is a partnership between the Ontario Provincial Police and the Ontario Federation of Snowmobile Clubs. This community based enforcement program uses the assistance of Special Constables to better the sport of snowmobiling. The goals of the S.T.O.P. program are to;

* Increase public awareness of snowmobile safety and the dangers of drinking and riding a snowmobile

* Educate snowmobilers on safety and nuisance concerns and promoting voluntary compliance with the snowmobile laws.

* Enforce the Motorized Snow Vehicles Act (M.S.V.A.) and, where applicable, municipal snowmobile bylaws

They also assist police in sobriety enforcement. For MSVA enforcement purposes, S.T.O.P. Officers have the same authority as police officers.

This authority comes from the Police Services Act and is granted by the government. This gives a S.T.O.P. Officer special powers for the Province of Ontario only to enforce the Motorized Snow Vehicles Act (M.S.V.A.) only for a set period of time.

The power to write tickets comes from the Provincial Offences Act Section 1(3) and the designation of Special Constables is signed by the Solicitor General. This permits the Commissioner of the O.P.P. to appoint the S.T.O.P. Officers as Special Constables. The O.P.P. Provincial Coordinator holds the signed designation in Orillia empowering the S.T.O.P. Officers to be appointed as Special Constables to enforce the M.S.V.A.

Therefore under the M.S.V.A. a S.T.O.P. Officer can carry out the same duties as a Police Officer by definition (Sec. 53 (3) Police Services Act) and may even make an arrest under Sec. 16(5) of the M.S.V.A.

The History

Sixty (60) snowmobiles were sold in North America in 1960. Today there are over 300,000 registered snowmobiles in the Province of Ontario. A recent economic study showed that this sport contributed 1.2 billion over $900 million dollars to the Ontario economy and $3.6 billion nationally in 2005.

Unfortunately, the rising popularity of snowmobiling has also resulted in increased fatal and serious injury accidents. Law enforcement agencies and snowmobile organizations are both being challenged to address this situation.

This is the story of how one area took a new approach and made a difference.

The Task Force

While the Trail Wardens and police were taking immediate steps to curb the drinking and riding problems, the local politicians were also responding to the events of the recent weeks. At a meeting of regional mayors, the issue of snowmobile safety came up. Mayors Terry Kett of Walden and Jean-Guy Quesnel of Onaping Falls joined the group of stakeholders who had met at the O.P.P. station and the Mayors and Citizens Task Forceon Snowmobiling was formed.Locally elected Members of Provincial Parliament and Mayor Kett kept up the pressure on Queen's Park, while Sgt. Beach began a campaign of calling the Solicitor General's policy and planning group on a regular basis to make sure things were not forgotten.Finally, in the fall of 1992, the Solicitor General and Minister of Correctional Services approved the implementation of a three year pilot project in Sudbury to assess the feasibility of volunteer snowmobile enforcement, which became known as the Snowmobile Trail Officer Patrol or S.T.O.P. program.

Over its three year life, the task force addressed a number of snowmobile safety issues.

Education was reviewed and a new snowmobile bylaw was developed and enacted for all seven municipalities in the region with the support of both police and snowmobile clubs

The landmark project, however, started in the spring of 1992 when one of the snowmobile representatives, Norm Hein of the Sudbury Trail Plan, submitted a proposal outlining how the province could appoint volunteers as Special Constables and Provincial Offenses Officers. The clubs and police both accepted this concept and started working together to lobby the Ontario Government to make it a reality.

By the start of the 1994/1995 season, a significant reduction in the injury and fatal statistics was observed in the Sudbury area, compared to the period prior to the pilot project.

In February, 1995, the Solicitor General and Minister of Correctional Services announced that the S.T.O.P. pilot project was a success and that S.T.O.P. would now become a permanent program, expanding gradually across the province. The program would be run as a partnership, managed provincially by the Ontario Federation of Snowmobile Clubs and the Ontario Provincial Police Traffic and Marine Safety Bureau.

The Expansion

Following the announcement of the expansion, the O.P.P. appointed Traffic S/Sgt. Ron Roy as the O.P.P. Provincial S.T.O.P. Coordinator, while the OFSC named Sp/Cst. Jim Robinson to the corresponding post.STOP_94SudGrad

The Coordinators then began looking for new sites to establish the program. After meetings with clubs and police, Thunder Bay / Nipigon, North Bay and Timmins were approved as the new S.T.O.P. Areas for the fall of 1995. The program continued to grow over the years, and the present status can be seen on the About Stop portion of this website.

September 1995 saw the signing of a Protocol Agreement between the OFSC and O.P.P. laying out the terms of the partnership.

Early in the expansion phase, S.T.O.P. Sp/Cst. Norm Hein and O.P.P. Sr/Cst. Shawn Rae of the Sudbury Area, both instrumental in the implementation of the pilot project, began working with the O.P.P. Academy to develop a formal Course Training Standard (CTS) for the new officers. The CTS manuals were approved and continue to form the basis for S.T.O.P. officer training across the province today.

In the summer of 1996, Jim Robinson approached the OFSC Board of Governors, requesting that funding for the program be provided by the OFSC provincially. The original plan was for the clubs in each area to bear the cost of the program. Robinson based his arguments on the premise that centralized funding would ensure consistency and enable new site selections based on interest and need rather than financial ability. The Board approved this proposal.

At the end of 1996, Ron Roy elected to retire from the O.P.P. after a long and distinguished career. On January 1, 1997, Traffic Sgt. Lynn Beach, who had called the first meeting almost five years before, returned to the program as O.P.P. Provincial S.T.O.P. Coordinator.

The Results

From the beginning, the S.T.O.P. program had a marked impact on snowmobile safety. In a report issued in September 1995, Drs. Brian Rowe and Gary Bota reviewed trauma incidence in the Sudbury Area before and after the S.T.O.P. program.

In the three years prior to the program, 15 sledders died. Thirteen of these were alcohol involved. In the next three year period, with active sobriety spot checks throughout the area, only four were killed. In only two of these incidents was alcohol a factor. Further, there was a substantial reduction in both hospital admissions and the injury severity of those admitted.

The doctors concluded that S.T.O.P. was effective in reducing snowmobile deaths and injuries, and supported its expansion throughout the province.

Because S.T.O.P. officers are snowmobilers and not police officers, their mandate is to improve the sport rather than enforce the law. They must walk a fine line between providing enough regulation to deal with problems, but not so much that they take the fun out of the sport.

S.T.O.P. is now heralded as a classic example of community policing. Snowmobilers are a community that has a problem. Rather than rely exclusively on police officers to deal with it, they have chosen to participate fully in the solution

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Not Union BS but rather the OPP Management in this case trying to protect thier turf. Rather than working along with the STOP Provincial Offence Officers they seem to be trying to push them out. Unfortunately affecting the safety of all who use the OFSC Trail System. The OPP doesnt have nor will ever have adequate resources to patrol the trails to the level and extent that the STOP Program had until recently.

Toronto Police have in similar fashion pushed to and were sucessful in taking over the budget of the TTC for policing the TTC and pushed out the TTC's Provinical Offence Officers in similar fashion.

This is a management thing, not a union thing so save the union bashing.

PROTECT THEIR TURF? REALLY? Are they planning on billing the OFSC for their services too?

So when is the school board going to take over the driver training courses then?

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PROTECT THEIR TURF? REALLY? Are they planning on billing the OFSC for their services too?

So when is the school board going to take over the driver training courses then?

If you take the time to re-read my post I wasn't speaking to their defense. However they have funds earmarked in their budget for the snowmobile trail patrol and the officers assigned to it (Equipment and wages). Look around you there is pressure at the Provinical and Municipal level to reduce their budgets. One way around that is to either raid anothers budget or justify yours by assuming added responsibility. I have been involved and seen this happen on many fronts as I have lobbied at all levels of government for adequate funding of the fire service. It has played itself out in this manner many times over the years, especially in bad economic times. I absolutely think like the Toronto example they are trying to push the Provincial Offences Officers (Special Constables) out.

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Going out on a limb here, but the article doesn't appear to be reported 'with balance'. It's one person's version of events.

There may be more to it - who knows. It would have been nice to hear from OPP and OFSC in the article. Or, at least make an attempt to contact them.

The OFSC website, for example, does not indicate a reduction in powers. It's reproduced here because the history of the program should be documented, and the people instrumental in its development recognized.

http://www.ofsc.on.c...=161&Itemid=151

About S.T.O.P.

Snowmobile Trail Officer Patrol (S.T.O.P.) is a partnership between the Ontario Provincial Police and the Ontario Federation of Snowmobile Clubs. This community based enforcement program uses the assistance of Special Constables to better the sport of snowmobiling. The goals of the S.T.O.P. program are to;

* Increase public awareness of snowmobile safety and the dangers of drinking and riding a snowmobile

* Educate snowmobilers on safety and nuisance concerns and promoting voluntary compliance with the snowmobile laws.

* Enforce the Motorized Snow Vehicles Act (M.S.V.A.) and, where applicable, municipal snowmobile bylaws

They also assist police in sobriety enforcement. For MSVA enforcement purposes, S.T.O.P. Officers have the same authority as police officers.

This authority comes from the Police Services Act and is granted by the government. This gives a S.T.O.P. Officer special powers for the Province of Ontario only to enforce the Motorized Snow Vehicles Act (M.S.V.A.) only for a set period of time.

The power to write tickets comes from the Provincial Offences Act Section 1(3) and the designation of Special Constables is signed by the Solicitor General. This permits the Commissioner of the O.P.P. to appoint the S.T.O.P. Officers as Special Constables. The O.P.P. Provincial Coordinator holds the signed designation in Orillia empowering the S.T.O.P. Officers to be appointed as Special Constables to enforce the M.S.V.A.

Therefore under the M.S.V.A. a S.T.O.P. Officer can carry out the same duties as a Police Officer by definition (Sec. 53 (3) Police Services Act) and may even make an arrest under Sec. 16(5) of the M.S.V.A.

The History

Sixty (60) snowmobiles were sold in North America in 1960. Today there are over 300,000 registered snowmobiles in the Province of Ontario. A recent economic study showed that this sport contributed 1.2 billion over $900 million dollars to the Ontario economy and $3.6 billion nationally in 2005.

Unfortunately, the rising popularity of snowmobiling has also resulted in increased fatal and serious injury accidents. Law enforcement agencies and snowmobile organizations are both being challenged to address this situation.

This is the story of how one area took a new approach and made a difference.

The Task Force

While the Trail Wardens and police were taking immediate steps to curb the drinking and riding problems, the local politicians were also responding to the events of the recent weeks. At a meeting of regional mayors, the issue of snowmobile safety came up. Mayors Terry Kett of Walden and Jean-Guy Quesnel of Onaping Falls joined the group of stakeholders who had met at the O.P.P. station and the Mayors and Citizens Task Forceon Snowmobiling was formed.Locally elected Members of Provincial Parliament and Mayor Kett kept up the pressure on Queen's Park, while Sgt. Beach began a campaign of calling the Solicitor General's policy and planning group on a regular basis to make sure things were not forgotten.Finally, in the fall of 1992, the Solicitor General and Minister of Correctional Services approved the implementation of a three year pilot project in Sudbury to assess the feasibility of volunteer snowmobile enforcement, which became known as the Snowmobile Trail Officer Patrol or S.T.O.P. program.

Over its three year life, the task force addressed a number of snowmobile safety issues.

Education was reviewed and a new snowmobile bylaw was developed and enacted for all seven municipalities in the region with the support of both police and snowmobile clubs

The landmark project, however, started in the spring of 1992 when one of the snowmobile representatives, Norm Hein of the Sudbury Trail Plan, submitted a proposal outlining how the province could appoint volunteers as Special Constables and Provincial Offenses Officers. The clubs and police both accepted this concept and started working together to lobby the Ontario Government to make it a reality.

By the start of the 1994/1995 season, a significant reduction in the injury and fatal statistics was observed in the Sudbury area, compared to the period prior to the pilot project.

In February, 1995, the Solicitor General and Minister of Correctional Services announced that the S.T.O.P. pilot project was a success and that S.T.O.P. would now become a permanent program, expanding gradually across the province. The program would be run as a partnership, managed provincially by the Ontario Federation of Snowmobile Clubs and the Ontario Provincial Police Traffic and Marine Safety Bureau.

The Expansion

Following the announcement of the expansion, the O.P.P. appointed Traffic S/Sgt. Ron Roy as the O.P.P. Provincial S.T.O.P. Coordinator, while the OFSC named Sp/Cst. Jim Robinson to the corresponding post.STOP_94SudGrad

The Coordinators then began looking for new sites to establish the program. After meetings with clubs and police, Thunder Bay / Nipigon, North Bay and Timmins were approved as the new S.T.O.P. Areas for the fall of 1995. The program continued to grow over the years, and the present status can be seen on the About Stop portion of this website.

September 1995 saw the signing of a Protocol Agreement between the OFSC and O.P.P. laying out the terms of the partnership.

Early in the expansion phase, S.T.O.P. Sp/Cst. Norm Hein and O.P.P. Sr/Cst. Shawn Rae of the Sudbury Area, both instrumental in the implementation of the pilot project, began working with the O.P.P. Academy to develop a formal Course Training Standard (CTS) for the new officers. The CTS manuals were approved and continue to form the basis for S.T.O.P. officer training across the province today.

In the summer of 1996, Jim Robinson approached the OFSC Board of Governors, requesting that funding for the program be provided by the OFSC provincially. The original plan was for the clubs in each area to bear the cost of the program. Robinson based his arguments on the premise that centralized funding would ensure consistency and enable new site selections based on interest and need rather than financial ability. The Board approved this proposal.

At the end of 1996, Ron Roy elected to retire from the O.P.P. after a long and distinguished career. On January 1, 1997, Traffic Sgt. Lynn Beach, who had called the first meeting almost five years before, returned to the program as O.P.P. Provincial S.T.O.P. Coordinator.

The Results

From the beginning, the S.T.O.P. program had a marked impact on snowmobile safety. In a report issued in September 1995, Drs. Brian Rowe and Gary Bota reviewed trauma incidence in the Sudbury Area before and after the S.T.O.P. program.

In the three years prior to the program, 15 sledders died. Thirteen of these were alcohol involved. In the next three year period, with active sobriety spot checks throughout the area, only four were killed. In only two of these incidents was alcohol a factor. Further, there was a substantial reduction in both hospital admissions and the injury severity of those admitted.

The doctors concluded that S.T.O.P. was effective in reducing snowmobile deaths and injuries, and supported its expansion throughout the province.

Because S.T.O.P. officers are snowmobilers and not police officers, their mandate is to improve the sport rather than enforce the law. They must walk a fine line between providing enough regulation to deal with problems, but not so much that they take the fun out of the sport.

S.T.O.P. is now heralded as a classic example of community policing. Snowmobilers are a community that has a problem. Rather than rely exclusively on police officers to deal with it, they have chosen to participate fully in the solution

You may be correct, Canuck. However, this blurb has been on the OFSC site for a while but I am afraid that it may be dated. The changes and subsequent resignations were during the past summer and early fall, just prior to the AGM, AFAIK. There is now a new chair of the OFSC STOP Committee and I spoke with him at the AGM. However, still no followup. :wtf:

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Nothing to do with unions of any sort, how would you like it if someone was doing your job for free???

Not Union BS but rather the OPP Management in this case trying to protect thier turf. Rather than working along with the STOP Provincial Offence Officers they seem to be trying to push them out. Unfortunately affecting the safety of all who use the OFSC Trail System. The OPP doesnt have nor will ever have adequate resources to patrol the trails to the level and extent that the STOP Program had until recently.

Toronto Police have in similar fashion pushed to and were sucessful in taking over the budget of the TTC for policing the TTC and pushed out the TTC's Provinical Offence Officers in similar fashion.

This is a management thing, not a union thing so save the union bashing.

you may want to think that, but all too often with unions its 'they are doing my job, if they are doing it for free its taking away work/pay/OT from us, make it stop' too much bullshit from unions.

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If you take the time to re-read my post I wasn't speaking to their defense. However they have funds earmarked in their budget for the snowmobile trail patrol and the officers assigned to it (Equipment and wages). Look around you there is pressure at the Provinical and Municipal level to reduce their budgets. One way around that is to either raid anothers budget or justify yours by assuming added responsibility. I have been involved and seen this happen on many fronts as I have lobbied at all levels of government for adequate funding of the fire service. It has played itself out in this manner many times over the years, especially in bad economic times. I absolutely think like the Toronto example they are trying to push the Provincial Offences Officers (Special Constables) out.

I wasn't defending them either. If it's cost that is the issue then isn't a volunteer a more cost effective way of keeping trails safer?

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Let's try to stop the union bashing.

Unions do typically improve working conditions.

They protect wages and benefits.

Unions also have a very big hand in developing safer working conditions and improving training.

They also are a key stakeholder in ensuring where various services are provided, they are provided with a high degree of skill, expertise and care with a high level of customer service.

In my opinion, in the case of STOP. I see a major liability. Despite some training, these STOP officers are not in a position to safely enforce much of anything. The key being "safely".

I also believe that the OPP, are doing exactly what has been mentioned here already. Defending their budgets, trying to maintain a level of service and increase funding for programs such as their SAVE teams. I rather doubt that the sole driving factor is the Union themselves. However, as a strong Unionist, I have to comment. There is a degree of responsibility to work with various management groups, by the Associations (Unions) to defend "work", work being normally occurring jobs, roles and responsibilities. Tasks that are normally and routinely part of a police officers job, in this case..trail patrols, safety, education and enforcement. I am a firm believer in that if there is a better trained professional to do a job over a volunteer, then the trained professional should be doing that work. No offense to any volunteer. This society still needs volunteers and always will. For the right type of thing. In this day and age there is a huge concern revolving around liability. Sadly STOP officers could not be expected to be in a position to receive the full and proper amount of training to even consider expanding their scope of responsibility. Therefore, there has to be a line drawn in the sand, so to speak. I have seen this occur all over the Province with volunteer firefighters also. There are fewer and fewer "composite" departments around than there was even ten years ago. The answer boils down to again..liability. Not so much the Unions protecting their work, but that is also a factor. You pay dues for the Associations to improve wages, benefits, and working conditions. There is also a responsibility to improve safety, education and training. This is not "teamsters" tactics or "CAW" here...there is a major difference in how a police Association or firefighter Association does business. Therein lies the difference. If these STOP officers are truly interested in remaining volunteers, they would find a way to embrace the changes, work with them and remain committed to trail safety and education. If all they are in it for is the referent power the position could hold, then they are clearly in it for the wrong reason. I mean to offend nobody with my comments. It is my opinion here. That is it. I just hate to see so much union bashing going on. Please remember there is a difference in what an Association (union)does for it's mandate and what a "teamsters" type union does. I like to think there is more interest based negotiations going on rather than positional based relationships with Associations.

At the end of the day, the faces of volunteer-ism is changing all the time. Big factors include, responsibility, reliability, education, training, and scope of all of these factors. It is not all about the feeling of "don't touch" my work.

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Interesting observation, smokeater466.

Definitely one way of looking at it.

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Could it be a combined effort on the part of the OPP's management/members. If STOP officers are being used to patrol the trails wouldn't that make the use of OPP officers redundant? I can see the OPP trying to protect its turf.

And yes if you're in the STOP patrol (or any other organization) for the "wrong" reasons, you shouldn't be there. From my experience @ the executive level, I have seen this 1st hand. Always there for the photo ops, but other than that they don't add much.

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Let's try to stop the union bashing.

Unions do typically improve working conditions.

They protect wages and benefits.

Unions also have a very big hand in developing safer working conditions and improving training.

They also are a key stakeholder in ensuring where various services are provided, they are provided with a high degree of skill, expertise and care with a high level of customer service.

In my opinion, in the case of STOP. I see a major liability. Despite some training, these STOP officers are not in a position to safely enforce much of anything. The key being "safely".

I also believe that the OPP, are doing exactly what has been mentioned here already. Defending their budgets, trying to maintain a level of service and increase funding for programs such as their SAVE teams. I rather doubt that the sole driving factor is the Union themselves. However, as a strong Unionist, I have to comment. There is a degree of responsibility to work with various management groups, by the Associations (Unions) to defend "work", work being normally occurring jobs, roles and responsibilities. Tasks that are normally and routinely part of a police officers job, in this case..trail patrols, safety, education and enforcement. I am a firm believer in that if there is a better trained professional to do a job over a volunteer, then the trained professional should be doing that work. No offense to any volunteer. This society still needs volunteers and always will. For the right type of thing. In this day and age there is a huge concern revolving around liability. Sadly STOP officers could not be expected to be in a position to receive the full and proper amount of training to even consider expanding their scope of responsibility. Therefore, there has to be a line drawn in the sand, so to speak. I have seen this occur all over the Province with volunteer firefighters also. There are fewer and fewer "composite" departments around than there was even ten years ago. The answer boils down to again..liability. Not so much the Unions protecting their work, but that is also a factor. You pay dues for the Associations to improve wages, benefits, and working conditions. There is also a responsibility to improve safety, education and training. This is not "teamsters" tactics or "CAW" here...there is a major difference in how a police Association or firefighter Association does business. Therein lies the difference. If these STOP officers are truly interested in remaining volunteers, they would find a way to embrace the changes, work with them and remain committed to trail safety and education. If all they are in it for is the referent power the position could hold, then they are clearly in it for the wrong reason. I mean to offend nobody with my comments. It is my opinion here. That is it. I just hate to see so much union bashing going on. Please remember there is a difference in what an Association (union)does for it's mandate and what a "teamsters" type union does. I like to think there is more interest based negotiations going on rather than positional based relationships with Associations.

At the end of the day, the faces of volunteer-ism is changing all the time. Big factors include, responsibility, reliability, education, training, and scope of all of these factors. It is not all about the feeling of "don't touch" my work.

First of all where is the the union bashing? Freezerburnt just asked a question! It's You and Smokeater that jumped on the union bashing theme!

Your right about the teamsters type unions but when any union gets involved the cost is going up. Maybe the insurance laywers should patrol the trails!

It makes me sick to listen to the union way! They provide this and that but they provide job security? NO WAY!

Don't get me going on this! I have seen both sides and seen alot of job go south of the border and off shore. If your municipality was to build a new fire house and hire non union employees who do you think would get the call to the next fire?

Sorry for the hijack!

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Unions had there place decades ago, now most seem to be bullies that try to make their members conform. Its like a Borg cube.

I have seen unions attempt to gain membership by force when the potential new members did not ask or want to be part of the union. There are jobs out there that may still require the protection of the union like firefighters, however the unions like the CAW are not working in the best interests of society, IMO :coffeenose:

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Let's try to stop the union bashing.

Unions do typically improve working conditions.

They protect wages and benefits.

Unions also have a very big hand in developing safer working conditions and improving training.

They also are a key stakeholder in ensuring where various services are provided, they are provided with a high degree of skill, expertise and care with a high level of customer service.

In my opinion, in the case of STOP. I see a major liability. Despite some training, these STOP officers are not in a position to safely enforce much of anything. The key being "safely".

I also believe that the OPP, are doing exactly what has been mentioned here already. Defending their budgets, trying to maintain a level of service and increase funding for programs such as their SAVE teams. I rather doubt that the sole driving factor is the Union themselves. However, as a strong Unionist, I have to comment. There is a degree of responsibility to work with various management groups, by the Associations (Unions) to defend "work", work being normally occurring jobs, roles and responsibilities. Tasks that are normally and routinely part of a police officers job, in this case..trail patrols, safety, education and enforcement. I am a firm believer in that if there is a better trained professional to do a job over a volunteer, then the trained professional should be doing that work. No offense to any volunteer. This society still needs volunteers and always will. For the right type of thing. In this day and age there is a huge concern revolving around liability. Sadly STOP officers could not be expected to be in a position to receive the full and proper amount of training to even consider expanding their scope of responsibility. Therefore, there has to be a line drawn in the sand, so to speak. I have seen this occur all over the Province with volunteer firefighters also. There are fewer and fewer "composite" departments around than there was even ten years ago. The answer boils down to again..liability. Not so much the Unions protecting their work, but that is also a factor. You pay dues for the Associations to improve wages, benefits, and working conditions. There is also a responsibility to improve safety, education and training. This is not "teamsters" tactics or "CAW" here...there is a major difference in how a police Association or firefighter Association does business. Therein lies the difference. If these STOP officers are truly interested in remaining volunteers, they would find a way to embrace the changes, work with them and remain committed to trail safety and education. If all they are in it for is the referent power the position could hold, then they are clearly in it for the wrong reason. I mean to offend nobody with my comments. It is my opinion here. That is it. I just hate to see so much union bashing going on. Please remember there is a difference in what an Association (union)does for it's mandate and what a "teamsters" type union does. I like to think there is more interest based negotiations going on rather than positional based relationships with Associations.

At the end of the day, the faces of volunteer-ism is changing all the time. Big factors include, responsibility, reliability, education, training, and scope of all of these factors. It is not all about the feeling of "don't touch" my work.

Maybe myself and my team should stop trail building because it is creating a liability issue,

taking away a job that someone else could be paid to do and creating a resistance movement

between the O.P.P.and S.T.O.P.If we quit and all the volunteers quit then there would not be

anything for them to fight over. It would also decrease the carnage on the trails because there

wouldn't be any trails.

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In my opinion, in the case of STOP. I see a major liability. Despite some training, these STOP officers are not in a position to safely enforce much of anything. The key being "safely".

That’s the reason right there... You can't have guys trying to enforce the law off the trail, even if you did see the guy run away off trail. OFSC insurance most likely doesn't cover that. And all the things in the paper about OPP in high speed car chases are putting pressure on the cops to back off, that same goes for on the trail, where you have a volunteer on their own sled trying to chase someone else on a trail.

I’ve only been stopped by a STOP once in a gas station 500 meters from the trail, last year in Bancroft. Dude came up hit the kill switch on my sled as I was getting ready to leave and asked to see my paper work. Showed him my paperwork and told him the next time he touched my sled he would be touching the ground with his face. He went on how its his duty to enforce the law.

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I wasn't defending them either. If it's cost that is the issue then isn't a volunteer a more cost effective way of keeping trails safer?

Absolutely and I think the program works. I just wanted to dispell the anti-union slant, that it is the Management that has pushed this issue not the union. It is purely an incorrect statement.

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