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Help the PSSD


Wildbill

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On hardcore sledder they took up a collection to help a fellow sledder could we take up a collection to help with the costs . I think the PSSD has a paypal account that could be used . Lets show our support and make a difference . Rick can you do some magic with this post please.

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Bill,

That is a great idea, but are the costs not supposed to be covered by the OFSC? I thought in circumstances like these that our $$ are used to protect our volunteers with legal council

Just looking for some clarification.

Thanks

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Bill,

That is a great idea, but are the costs not supposed to be covered by the OFSC? I thought in circumstances like these that our $$ are used to protect our volunteers with legal council

Just looking for some clarification.

Thanks

There will be many costs above what the OFSC covers and I am not sure that the OFSC will cover all costs of the lawyer. If you care as much as you say you do be a part of the solution . The costs of compliance with the MOL is huge and is not being aided by the OFSC whatsoever couple this with declining trail pass sales and you cannot get water out of an empty well ! Show your support !

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Bill,

That is a great idea, but are the costs not supposed to be covered by the OFSC? I thought in circumstances like these that our $$ are used to protect our volunteers with legal council

Just looking for some clarification.

Thanks

There will be many costs above what the OFSC covers and I am not sure that the OFSC will cover all costs of the lawyer. If you care as much as you say you do be a part of the solution . The costs of compliance with the MOL is huge and is not being aided by the OFSC whatsoever couple this with declining trail pass sales and you cannot get water out of an empty well ! Show your support !

The OFSC told me they retain a portion of the funds from the trail pass revenue so that they can fund admin, advertising & insurance costs. The insurance is to be on behalf of the clubs/volunteers.

They also claimed that they have done an adequate job of providing clubs & volunteers with the information & strategies necessary to comply with MOL regs.

If they truly had done their job, the ins. policy protecting from MOL charges would be in place.

The OFSC has been caught with their pants down here.

Their ins doesn't cover the legal so now what?

They should acknowledge that fact that they failed to prepare for this situation & commit to using other OFSC funds in this case. After all, permit holders believe that they are buying passes for this reason.

The last thing that the PSSD should have to worry about is $ right now.

The OFSC says that they support the volunteers & clubs & will help in any way they can? This is it boys & girls!

Step up OFSC, put your $ where your mouth is! If the OFSC wants to be viewed as a leader in resolving the matter, they will not allow legal costs to complicate things for those who already have enough on their plate.

If the OFSC wants help paying the bill, they can sue the MOL for damages resulting in reckless prosecution. That should happen either way.

If there was no group such as the OFSC, I would be the first to pull out the plastic. If we make donations for legals, that just makes it easy for the Federation to sit back on their hands.

If donations are to be made, it should be directly to PSSD. They can choose the manner in which the funds are spent. The OFSC had better make sure that legal is NOT one of them!

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Bill,

That is a great idea, but are the costs not supposed to be covered by the OFSC? I thought in circumstances like these that our $$ are used to protect our volunteers with legal council

Just looking for some clarification.

Thanks

There will be many costs above what the OFSC covers and I am not sure that the OFSC will cover all costs of the lawyer. If you care as much as you say you do be a part of the solution . The costs of compliance with the MOL is huge and is not being aided by the OFSC whatsoever couple this with declining trail pass sales and you cannot get water out of an empty well ! Show your support !

WildBill,

I did not say I was not showing support, quite the contrary, I was trying to get clarification by asking, to ensure that everyone understands why they need to rally support financially.

It is unfortunate the OC ride had to be moved because of the uncertainty and lack of communication by the club. As a result this has cost the local businesses potential revenue. This could have been a great show of support.

I do not believe for a minute that any volunteer should be out of pocket for anything related to their volunteer work. On the other hand, part of our permit dollars goes towards this. Rally for support for any balance that would be burdened on the volunteers and/or clubs is, as I said in the first place, a great idea.

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Guys if you read all the posts floating around on this subject, you would realize that insurance doesn't cover charges or the legal fees to fight them. It will cover lawsuits however. Some of you seem to think the OFSC has a huge pot of money sitting in a drawer some where to pull out of in these. I can assure you there is no pot. Every available dollar is budgeted for. Unless you want them to pull money back from the clubs to pay PSSD!

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Guys if you read all the posts floating around on this subject, you would realize that insurance doesn't cover charges or the legal fees to fight them. It will cover lawsuits however. Some of you seem to think the OFSC has a huge pot of money sitting in a drawer some where to pull out of in these. I can assure you there is no pot. Every available dollar is budgeted for. Unless you want them to pull money back from the clubs to pay PSSD!

Thanks! That's the response I was looking for.

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The OFSC has the connections & influence to get this uder control if they want to.

They can find the resources far easier than D10 & individuals that face charges.

If this forum can gather support, so can they.

This is their chance to show leadership & set an example that the province will respect.

So PSSD has a pot of cash sitting around?

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Nice show of support you guys ! The OFSC has been told by thier lawyers to distance themselves from this ! Now you too ! Thanks Domino for leading by example ! When the trail systems fall apart because the volenteers leave for fear of this type of action then you look at your worthless new sleds because you have nowhere to ride them or your ATV for that matter . All volenteer activities will cease hockey,baseball,figure skating etc. will grind to a halt . Show that you are a part of the solution not part of the apathetic majority that let the world fall around them ! I match Doonut's pledge where do we send the cheque.

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Nice show of support you guys ! The OFSC has been told by thier lawyers to distance themselves from this ! Now you too ! Thanks Domino for leading by example ! When the trail systems fall apart because the volenteers leave for fear of this type of action then you look at your worthless new sleds because you have nowhere to ride them or your ATV for that matter . All volenteer activities will cease hockey,baseball,figure skating etc. will grind to a halt . Show that you are a part of the solution not part of the apathetic majority that let the world fall around them ! I match Dom's pledge where do we send the cheque.

?

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if you read all the posts floating around on this subject

Floating around is a good way to describe it. I am a fairly well read person and still don't know who is doing what for whom and by whom. In the past day or so there has been withholding information, lack of complete information, and speculative information.

The OFSC has been told by thier lawyers to distance themselves from this !

Where is this info from? Why should I believe it?

I would like to support Wildbill's fine idea here, but what is the problem we're trying to help out with?

-Does PSSD need the money and if so, for what?

-Does Ms. Derks need the money for her personal defence?

-What amount are we trying to raise?

-In these cases, isn't there usually a trust fund set up?

I'm with you on this, but let's know what we're doing.

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Nice show of support you guys ! The OFSC has been told by thier lawyers to distance themselves from this ! Now you too ! Thanks Domino for leading by example ! When the trail systems fall apart because the volenteers leave for fear of this type of action then you look at your worthless new sleds because you have nowhere to ride them or your ATV for that matter . All volenteer activities will cease hockey,baseball,figure skating etc. will grind to a halt . Show that you are a part of the solution not part of the apathetic majority that let the world fall around them ! I match Dom's pledge where do we send the cheque.

Volunteers should have nothing to fear as long as there are no paid employees working for them within the organization that they are responsible for. MOL cannot come near you when an accident happens if the injured party is a non-paid volunteer. I don't see what all the panic is about here. The only organizations that need to worry are the ones with paid employees. The issue here is that the groomer operator was on payroll and somebody has to be held liable. I think the only solution to rid snowmobile clubs of any future problems is not to have any paid employees. Yes this would suck because volunteers are hard to get but if it was the only way to have snowmobiling continue in Ontario it may get more people out to pitch in and do their part to contribute to the trail system.

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Nice show of support you guys ! The OFSC has been told by thier lawyers to distance themselves from this ! Now you too ! Thanks Domino for leading by example ! When the trail systems fall apart because the volenteers leave for fear of this type of action then you look at your worthless new sleds because you have nowhere to ride them or your ATV for that matter . All volenteer activities will cease hockey,baseball,figure skating etc. will grind to a halt . Show that you are a part of the solution not part of the apathetic majority that let the world fall around them ! I match Dom's pledge where do we send the cheque.

Volunteers should have nothing to fear as long as there are no paid employees working for them within the organization that they are responsible for. MOL cannot come near you when an accident happens if the injured party is a non-paid volunteer. I don't see what all the panic is about here. The only organizations that need to worry are the ones with paid employees. The issue here is that the groomer operator was on payroll and somebody has to be held liable. I think the only solution to rid snowmobile clubs of any future problems is not to have any paid employees. Yes this would suck because volunteers are hard to get but if it was the only way to have snowmobiling continue in Ontario it may get more people out to pitch in and do their part to contribute to the trail system.

Then you better come to love inconsistant poorly groomed trails ! Trails need to be groomed at night how many quality volenteers do you think will do that for 12hrs every night? The machines will be destroyed quickly . It is good to know that folks on this forum care so much.

Of course it will be in a separate trust fund . That will be setup immediatly upon this recieveing a positive response .

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Volunteers should have nothing to fear as long as there are no paid employees working for them within the organization that they are responsible for.

Apparently volunteers are included in Federal labour laws, lf the MOL can make a charge like this stick whats to stop the Feds from doing the same thing some day????? I'm in charge of our clubs grooming equipment and assign all of our volunteer operators to their tasks and am wondering if I may face this someday????

A concerned volunteer

bmax

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Volunteers should have nothing to fear as long as there are no paid employees working for them within the organization that they are responsible for.

Apparently volunteers are included in Federal labour laws, lf the MOL can make a charge like this stick whats to stop the Feds from doing the same thing some day????? I'm in charge of our clubs grooming equipment and assign all of our volunteer operators to their tasks and am wondering if I may face this someday????

A concerned volunteer

bmax

Yes you will !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If we allow this to stick it will affect all volenteers !

PSSD has been told to treat thier volenteers and train them the same as employees .

there is no end run around this we need to face it straight up!

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Of course it will be in a separate trust fund . That will be setup immediatly upon this recieveing a positive response .

Great...

...now one Saturday afternoon, I drop into Rosseau Road Enterprises to pick up my sled and I am hit up by the proprietor's daughter for some Girl Guide Cookies. I buy some without any qualms as I know generally where my money is going and by whom it is going to be spent, likely for support of that group.

Where would the money collected for PSSD be used? Why is it needed?

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Of course it will be in a separate trust fund . That will be setup immediatly upon this recieveing a positive response .

Great...

...now one Saturday afternoon, I drop into Rosseau Road Enterprises to pick up my sled and I am hit up by the proprietor's daughter for some Girl Guide Cookies. I buy some without any qualms as I know generally where my money is going and by whom it is going to be spent, likely for support of that group.

Where would the money collected for PSSD be used? Why is it needed?

The money would only go towards the costs of defense from these charges It is needed because it is unreasonable that a volenteer should have to spend thier life savings as a result of volenteering to help with the trails

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So the funds raised will go towards the personal defense of Marilyn Derks? She is the only one personally charged.

The corporation has financial options. She does not. The court date is just around the corner and as of yet, the defense attorney has yet to be named. This case requires the expertise of a firm that specializes in MOL charges. Marilyn should have the right to choose who she trusts to defend her personally & that attorney will want to know who will be the financial backing in the case.

The Corp. may want to choose a different firm to defend their case. Either way, a legal team must be assembled ASAP so that they can have time to prepare.

In the event that the charges can be dismissed, the unused funds can be delivered to the corp as a donation to the area.

If I had a business that has benefited from the snowmobile activities in the area, or as a sledder who has enjoyed the fruits of the volunteers labor, I would be honored to deliver financial support.

Perhaps the bank that handles the accounts for the PSSD could create an account. That way, folks can easily contribute & the club can post the progress of the fundraising.

Another option is make a donation to the club through the upcoming poker run. Either participate in the event or send a donation if you can't attend.

Judging by the number of posts here & the concern regarding the economic impact of loosing the trail system, raising cash in order to ensure the survival of the sport in PS & across the province shouldn't take long.

Thoughts?

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:wavey: hi

Has the OFSC pass the buck or not????

here is one example

Guy rides in poker run

Guy attempts to cross hwy

Guy gets smucked and dies

Family now tries to sue club

Goes to court

Club is found NOT guilty

OFSC sends letter to Clubs and demands the club pay the legal cost of the court preceding(sp?)

Club exec frustrated by the OFSC bureaucratic response resulting in a couple of dedicated volunteers quitting in utter disgust

Sound familiar :ugeek:

IMO the OFSC rather spend $thousands on a show vs helping its own members

Way to go Team OFSC!!!!!!!!! :crazy:

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Nice show of support you guys ! The OFSC has been told by thier lawyers to distance themselves from this ! Now you too ! Thanks Domino for leading by example ! When the trail systems fall apart because the volenteers leave for fear of this type of action then you look at your worthless new sleds because you have nowhere to ride them or your ATV for that matter . All volenteer activities will cease hockey,baseball,figure skating etc. will grind to a halt . Show that you are a part of the solution not part of the apathetic majority that let the world fall around them ! I match Dom's pledge where do we send the cheque.

Volunteers should have nothing to fear as long as there are no paid employees working for them within the organization that they are responsible for. MOL cannot come near you when an accident happens if the injured party is a non-paid volunteer. I don't see what all the panic is about here. The only organizations that need to worry are the ones with paid employees. The issue here is that the groomer operator was on payroll and somebody has to be held liable. I think the only solution to rid snowmobile clubs of any future problems is not to have any paid employees. Yes this would suck because volunteers are hard to get but if it was the only way to have snowmobiling continue in Ontario it may get more people out to pitch in and do their part to contribute to the trail system.

Then you better come to love inconsistant poorly groomed trails ! Trails need to be groomed at night how many quality volenteers do you think will do that for 12hrs every night? The machines will be destroyed quickly . It is good to know that folks on this forum care so much.

Of course it will be in a separate trust fund . That will be setup immediatly upon this recieveing a positive response .

Volunteers should have nothing to fear as long as there are no paid employees working for them within the organization that they are responsible for.

Apparently volunteers are included in Federal labour laws, lf the MOL can make a charge like this stick whats to stop the Feds from doing the same thing some day????? I'm in charge of our clubs grooming equipment and assign all of our volunteer operators to their tasks and am wondering if I may face this someday????

A concerned volunteer

bmax

Yes you will !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If we allow this to stick it will affect all volenteers !

PSSD has been told to treat thier volenteers and train them the same as employees .

there is no end run around this we need to face it straight up!

Volunteers should have nothing to fear as long as there are no paid employees working for them within the organization that they are responsible for.

Apparently volunteers are included in Federal labour laws, lf the MOL can make a charge like this stick whats to stop the Feds from doing the same thing some day????? I'm in charge of our clubs grooming equipment and assign all of our volunteer operators to their tasks and am wondering if I may face this someday????

A concerned volunteer

bmax

Before you guys slam my comments any further I think you should do your research. Everyone is in a panic over the volunteer aspect here. Here are some defintions straight from the MOL Website below.

Taken From the MOL Website

Do volunteer workers require training regarding

any controlled products they may use?

No. Training on the use of controlled products is only required for

workers under the Occupational Health and Safety Act. As

volunteers do not meet the definition of a worker, no training is

legally required. However, employers are strongly encouraged to

train volunteers who handle controlled products, or are exposed to

any other potential workplace hazards. Although not legally

required, providing such training can only be considered part of

being a responsible employer.

Definitions

Workplace

Any place in, on or near to where a worker works. A workplace could be a building, a mine, a construction site, an open field, a road, a forest or even a beach. The test is: Is the worker being directed and paid to be there, or to be near there? If the answer is "yes", then it is a workplace.

Worker

A person who is paid to perform work or supply services. This does not include an inmate of a correctional or similar institution working inside the institution on a work project or rehabilitation program.

Employer

A person who employs one or more workers. This includes someone who contracts for a worker's services. For example, if you pay a temporary help agency for the services of workers supplied by the agency, you are the employer of those workers while they are under your direction.

I think these Defintions pretty much sum it up. If the Person is NOT PAID the organization is not legally required to provide training. They are only urged to do so. The closer for me was the definition of the workplace where it gives you the test question.

The way I understand volunteers do not fall under the Labour Laws. I could post a lot more info to back this up but it would take too much space.

As far as poorly groomed trails go as per Wild Bills comment, our local club is all volunteers with groomers going out day and night and I am not complaining about the conditions at all. They do a fantastic job with what Mother Nature deals them.

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The fact of this particular matter is that Wildbill thinks that the PSSD is going to need support. I trust his judgement. Hope to see a fund set up soon.

The money would only go towards the costs of defense from these charges It is needed because it is unreasonable that a volenteer should have to spend thier life savings as a result of volenteering to help with the trails

Okay try this..... (change as you see fit)

Hello fellow sledders. My name is Wildbill Parks. My ___ years contributing to snowmobiling include being past president of the Parry Sound Snowmobiling District, this, that, something else, in addition to countless personal hours spent building and maintaining trails. My wife Jenn has served as past president of the South Seguin club, this, that, and whatever else. In addition we run Rosseau Road Enterprises which over the years - as supported by testimonials from sledders on this forum and others - has built a reputation for quality workmanship and honesty. Jenn and I had taken this year off from active participation in organizational capacities due to 'burn out' and to pay more attention to our family and business. However, we feel that the current legal troubles of the PSSD are serious enough to warrant stepping out of this 'retirement' to help the PSSD.

Given our experience in dealing with the the legal and organizational aspects of snowmobiling, we anticipate that the PSSD will need financial support in their legal hearings with the Ministry of Labour. Money will be needed for:

(these are hypothetical examples only)

-the PSSD does not have adequate funds to mount a proper defense.

-the OFSC will / will not? provide money for defense.

-Ms. Derks is personally responsible for funding her own defense and will need help.

Here is what we propose to do:

-we will be creating a fund held in trust with lawyer __________to be administered by Jenn and myself (and a possible third party). We would hope that your trust in our reputation for honesty would include allowing the dispersement of the money in the account as we see fit.

I have no idea how a trust fund gets started, but you get the idea

-we will start a fax campaign with a form letter to local businesses asking for their support for a cause which will contribute to future business.

-we will encourage the executives of clubs within the PSSD to remain open for the season unless it becomes legally precarious to do otherwise.

Here's what snowmobilers can do:

We ask that you put aside any emotional responses you may have about the PSSD/Ministry of Labour situation and consider this situation in a rational manner. People who gave freely of time and resources for the betterment of sledding are now at grave risk. Legal precedents set during the upcoming hearings will affect snowmobiling as we know it in Ontario.

Your contributions to this fund are important. There will be no charitable tax receipts. Consider it as an investment in the future of sledding, well in excess of what the money from your trail passes provide.

- a Paypal account will be set up online for convenient contribution by credit card. You can access it at:

_______________________

-cheques made out to 'PSSD Defense Fund' may be mailed to 'PSSD Defense Fund', c/o Rosseau Road Enterprises, mailing address. (or wherever you want them sent)

We will endeavour to keep contributors apprised of total contributions and where funding has been applied, through updates on the snowmobiling forums on which this appeal has been announced.

Put yourself in the place of the people under duress in this situation and be generous.

------------------------------------------

Edit: If the above is helpful, you might want to post a new thread.

Wildbill -personally I'm in for $54 once things get set up-your dancing fingers on the cash register have created a glitch in our household accounting so I'll move this amount to our 'good causes' account. (small inside joke with Wildbill here)

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Why as an UNpaid volounteer do I have to take a course on chainsaw ops :wtf:

Since I do not fall under the MOL??????

So what you are saying "IF" so and so were UNpaid Volounteers a club can still put anyone on a groomer to groom trails without training and the MOL would not bat an eyelash???

To me this looks like clubs that do not belong to associations trying to help each other out vs the clubs that want to be stand alone and do NOT want the OFSC to help out the associctions that they encourages clubs to form in the 1st place :crazy:

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