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Trail Signage KM marking?


polarispete

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Just wondering why the trail signs all show KM on them with arrows pointing towards gas, eating spots, etc BUT NO DISTANCE showing before the KM? Some Clun

bs do but majority doesn't for some reason. Here in the States, all signs have mileage posted to show riders how much further they need to go if they are hungry or in need of gas.

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That is the $64 question. Sign theft & they just replaced it w/ a partially 'suitable' sign? 

 

This has been a peeve of many a rider over the years.

 

You didn't mention the signage that shows the distance increasing the closer you get to your destination...

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51 minutes ago, revrnd said:

That is the $64 question. Sigh theft & they just replaced it w/ a partially 'suitable' sign? 

 

This has been a peeve of many a rider over the years.

 

You didn't mention the signage that shows the distance increasing the closer you get to your destination...

Ask 14Snow, the signs we saw that say another 190kms, at 419pm in the afternoon in mid February??.:rotflmao::lmao:

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In our club it comes down to the one installing the destination sign in their section of trail. Some guys give a rat's ass, some don't. Heck, a neighbouring club had trails open that didn't have basic signage, they knew where they were going and where to stop, guess they figure that's good enough.

  I use the ITG to get the distance from sign installation point to the destination, pretty easy really.

 Funny (strange) that some guys in our own club complain about this problem or other signage issues when they travel to different areas, but don't see that they have the same issues at home.

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13 hours ago, revrnd said:

That is the $64 question. Sign theft & they just replaced it w/ a partially 'suitable' sign? 

 

This has been a peeve of many a rider over the years.

 

You didn't mention the signage that shows the distance increasing the closer you get to your destination...

I would hazzard a guess that they are ballparking the distance.

You got to remember that the volunteers that do trail work in the fall are mostly retired folks ( at least in our club), and I know that a large percentage of them don't know how to use a computer or own one let alone a GPS.

Heck, we have members that don't have a computer or a credit card.

Makes it fun for them to even order a permit!!

Edited by Bigfish
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23 hours ago, IQ TURBO said:

Ask 14Snow, the signs we saw that say another 190kms, at 419pm in the afternoon in mid February??.:rotflmao::lmao:

 

OMG what a memory.

 

A few abbreviatiions came to mind at that moment:

 

GIGO ( from my punch card, computer entry days )

 

Hmmm..should've doubled checked or at least assisted " he who shall not be named" re: mileage....

 

WTF?

 

" Are we there yet"?

 

----

 

In all seriousness, those 'distance to go' signs are volunteer driven. I suspect priorities are grooming, trail repairs, etc. Also, locals ( who work on the trails!) know the distance :)

 

There may be a sponsorship opportunity for a local businesses..50 KMS to ' coffee'; 40 km to ' Ski Doo repair facility - heck, place that ski Doo sign every 10 km, lol): etc. 

 

With technological advances, we'll soon have 'distance to go ' on our phones or GPS ... so this may be moot. Until then - plan well, grin and bear it.

  

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1 hour ago, Canuck said:

 

OMG what a memory.

 

A few abbreviatiions came to mind at that moment:

 

GIGO ( from my punch card, computer entry days )

 

Hmmm..should've doubled checked or at least assisted " he who shall not be named" re: mileage....

 

WTF?

 

" Are we there yet"?

 

----

 

In all seriousness, those 'distance to go' signs are volunteer driven. I suspect priorities are grooming, trail repairs, etc. Also, locals ( who work on the trails!) know the distance :)

 

There may be a sponsorship opportunity for a local businesses..50 KMS to ' coffee'; 40 km to ' Ski Doo repair facility - heck, place that ski Doo sign every 10 km, lol): etc. 

 

With technological advances, we'll soon have 'distance to go ' on our phones or GPS ... so this may be moot. Until then - plan well, grin and bear it.

  

Great memories they are Canuck.  Looking forward to Dooing it again..:right_on:

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3 hours ago, Canuck said:

 

OMG what a memory.

 

A few abbreviatiions came to mind at that moment:

 

GIGO ( from my punch card, computer entry days )

 

Hmmm..should've doubled checked or at least assisted " he who shall not be named" re: mileage....

 

WTF?

 

" Are we there yet"?

 

----

 

In all seriousness, those 'distance to go' signs are volunteer driven. I suspect priorities are grooming, trail repairs, etc. Also, locals ( who work on the trails!) know the distance :)

 

There may be a sponsorship opportunity for a local businesses..50 KMS to ' coffee'; 40 km to ' Ski Doo repair facility - heck, place that ski Doo sign every 10 km, lol): etc. 

 

With technological advances, we'll soon have 'distance to go ' on our phones or GPS ... so this may be moot. Until then - plan well, grin and bear it.

  

 

The 1st time I rode into Kap' I couldn't get over the professional look of the business advertising along the trail. All the signage was (still is) of a common size.

 

From out trek thru PQ in '08:

 

West of Rouyn-Noranda:

870373616_005WestEndofRouyn.thumb.JPG.b08eee68c7d1a6126e286020d51ddbe8.JPG

 

East of Cadillac:

1452570921_016EastofCadillac.thumb.JPG.168caecc764fc644c0f7335319cccdeb.JPG 

 

West of Poulaires:

101167496_027WestofPoulaires.thumb.JPG.d8ef2be94fe84c98400ce0c2084a22e5.JPG

 

Mind you in this pic from WD's trip it would appear the kms are missing from the signage so the FCMQ isn't perfect either:

20190321_161024_zpshiw7r4nn.jpg

 

I do like the distinctness of the arrow on the FCMQ signs, not the little 'smudge' on the OFSC signage.

 

I seem to recall it was in the early 90s when the blue & white destination signs went up across the OFSC. I know Paudash put up their wooden green & white signage around '90 or '91 (I was involved in determining the mileages & painting the signs). Perhaps it's time for a 'refresh' since not everyone has the latest & greatest tech for navigating the trails?

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Another poorly managed aspect of the OFSC.  Having a trail system is a great privilege but running it as a volunteer network provides a lot of excuses for things not done or not done right.

 

An incorrect sign is worse than none at all.  I don't buy the retired folk can't figure it out story.  If they used their own tools they could map it on their ITG like every other user of the system does.  I call it negligence. 

 

Is there a trail signage standard for all clubs to follow?  Do the clubs get audited? 

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36 minutes ago, DOOBEE said:

Another poorly managed aspect of the OFSC.  Having a trail system is a great privilege but running it as a volunteer network provides a lot of excuses for things not done or not done right.

 

An incorrect sign is worse than none at all.  I don't buy the retired folk can't figure it out story.  If they used their own tools they could map it on their ITG like every other user of the system does.  I call it negligence. 

 

Is there a trail signage standard for all clubs to follow?  Do the clubs get audited? 

What tools would that be?

and Yes there is a standard for all clubs to follow, but it does not include mileage, and yes they do get audited.

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The ITG.  It's been in place for several years, we all use it to determine mileage amongst other things.  Failing that, and where trails haven't changed, there is a long history of trail maps with distances indicated between markers.  Many of these distance signs are at major intersections where a marker once was on a map. 

 

If you are going to put in the work to go out and post it wouldn't ask yourself if the sign was complete and if not find a way to get the required information? 

 

I'm not saying it's easy in all cases, but when its done correctly and completely it's a big help.  

 

Why was distance not addressed in the standard since it is often indicated?

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1 hour ago, DOOBEE said:

Another poorly managed aspect of the OFSC.  Having a trail system is a great privilege but running it as a volunteer network provides a lot of excuses for things not done or not done right.

 

An incorrect sign is worse than none at all.  I don't buy the retired folk can't figure it out story.  If they used their own tools they could map it on their ITG like every other user of the system does.  I call it negligence. 

 

Is there a trail signage standard for all clubs to follow?  Do the clubs get audited? 

1

So are you saying that you wouldn't mind paying $500.00or $700.00 for your permit so that all the trail work can be done by paid personnel?

I'm guessing from your statement that you don't volunteer with a snowmobile club. If you did, you would realize that in the majority of clubs there really is a handful of volunteers that do the majority of the work. You obviously have no idea of how much work can be entailed to even put the km's. on a destination sign.

Let me give you an idea of how this might take place done properly. 

The destination signs are ordered by a club volunteer from the district office. The signs get installed in various locations when the volunteer(s) put the trail in late in the fall or early in the winter. A destination sign in many circumstances may be able to be used in multiple locations along the trail(s) which is why they aren't manufactured with the distances on them.

If volunteers wish to install the actual distance on the signs in a particular trail section, they must first figure out what the actual distance is. As you mentioned, that can be calculated on the ITG only after it comes live late in the fall. You have to know how to do that on the ITG and contrary to your opinion, a good percentage of the people that do use the ITG do not know how to find particular distances on the system. The ITG will only give you a non-exact distance and that's only if you can put the beginning and ending icons on the exact locations of the trail section you are looking for a distance on.

The volunteer with the support of the club needs to have the proper person in the club contact the person at the District level in charge of signage to approve the numeric decal purchase for the distances calculated and order the decals from their supplier. After the decals arrive at the club, the volunteer can pick them up and install them when they can get to the proper sign and have what they need with them that will allow the decals to stick to the sign properly. Now the volunteer can go on to another part of the work that needs to be done.

BTW, the vehicle fuel and expenses incurred by the volunteer in completing this project in most cases is borne by that volunteer.

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2 hours ago, DOOBEE said:

The ITG.  It's been in place for several years, we all use it to determine mileage amongst other things.  Failing that, and where trails haven't changed, there is a long history of trail maps with distances indicated between markers.  Many of these distance signs are at major intersections where a marker once was on a map. 

 

If you are going to put in the work to go out and post it wouldn't ask yourself if the sign was complete and if not find a way to get the required information? 

 

I'm not saying it's easy in all cases, but when its done correctly and completely it's a big help.  

 

Why was distance not addressed in the standard since it is often indicated?

All well & said but I know sledders that arent online & have someone help them buy their permits. I bet it's even worse for older people that hunt in Ontario.

 

Don't expect everyone is tech savvy.

 

From what I've seen of signage over the years I have no idea who is doing the auditing. I know making sure our road crossings are properly signed is a big part of opening trails. I've been involved w/ the club for about 4 years now & haven't heard any reports of sign issues other than what those on the board have 'internally' discussed. Nothing has come down from the district saying we need this or that corrected.

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PLC, some of those signs are so old & reroutes have changed the distances.

 

Maybe Ned Nickerson's fees could be better spent on improving signage on the trails. It would be money better spent IMO.

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2 hours ago, PISTON LAKE CRUISER said:

So are you saying that you wouldn't mind paying $500.00or $700.00 for your permit so that all the trail work can be done by paid personnel?

I'm guessing from your statement that you don't volunteer with a snowmobile club. If you did, you would realize that in the majority of clubs there really is a handful of volunteers that do the majority of the work. You obviously have no idea of how much work can be entailed to even put the km's. on a destination sign.

Let me give you an idea of how this might take place done properly. 

The destination signs are ordered by a club volunteer from the district office. The signs get installed in various locations when the volunteer(s) put the trail in late in the fall or early in the winter. A destination sign in many circumstances may be able to be used in multiple locations along the trail(s) which is why they aren't manufactured with the distances on them.

If volunteers wish to install the actual distance on the signs in a particular trail section, they must first figure out what the actual distance is. As you mentioned, that can be calculated on the ITG only after it comes live late in the fall. You have to know how to do that on the ITG and contrary to your opinion, a good percentage of the people that do use the ITG do not know how to find particular distances on the system. The ITG will only give you a non-exact distance and that's only if you can put the beginning and ending icons on the exact locations of the trail section you are looking for a distance on.

The volunteer with the support of the club needs to have the proper person in the club contact the person at the District level in charge of signage to approve the numeric decal purchase for the distances calculated and order the decals from their supplier. After the decals arrive at the club, the volunteer can pick them up and install them when they can get to the proper sign and have what they need with them that will allow the decals to stick to the sign properly. Now the volunteer can go on to another part of the work that needs to be done.

BTW, the vehicle fuel and expenses incurred by the volunteer in completing this project in most cases is borne by that volunteer.

 

I seem to be one of the few who feel this way but yes, I would gladly pay significantly more for a permit to support a better system. I pay it in fuel anyway, travelling to Quebec to get consistently groomed trails.  I am not part of a snowmobile club, I know I should be, but I ride where conditions are best from week to week and have lost interest in my local trails.  I also resent the entitlement club members project.  Thank you for your hard work, I know without it we'd have nothing.  Whether we participate in the club or not, we all contribute, at least financially, and I'd rather pay and ride every moment I can.   Right now we get exactly what we pay for.  I spend more on everything else in any given weekend.  Have you bought a ski pass lately and seen what they provide in return?  It's a business that figured out what is required to provide the system they advertise and charge appropriately.  But it's also owned privately. 

 

Thanks for the process clarification on the signage, it sounds like a real challenge, lots of bureaucracy, and excuses.  A volunteer system just can't be accountable enough and without compensation someones best effort is all that can be expected.

 

All I want is groomed trails, every day it is possible.  I would pay for that.

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3 hours ago, PISTON LAKE CRUISER said:

So are you saying that you wouldn't mind paying $500.00or $700.00 for your permit so that all the trail work can be done by paid personnel?

I'm guessing from your statement that you don't volunteer with a snowmobile club. If you did, you would realize that in the majority of clubs there really is a handful of volunteers that do the majority of the work. You obviously have no idea of how much work can be entailed to even put the km's. on a destination sign.

Let me give you an idea of how this might take place done properly. 

The destination signs are ordered by a club volunteer from the district office. The signs get installed in various locations when the volunteer(s) put the trail in late in the fall or early in the winter. A destination sign in many circumstances may be able to be used in multiple locations along the trail(s) which is why they aren't manufactured with the distances on them.

If volunteers wish to install the actual distance on the signs in a particular trail section, they must first figure out what the actual distance is. As you mentioned, that can be calculated on the ITG only after it comes live late in the fall. You have to know how to do that on the ITG and contrary to your opinion, a good percentage of the people that do use the ITG do not know how to find particular distances on the system. The ITG will only give you a non-exact distance and that's only if you can put the beginning and ending icons on the exact locations of the trail section you are looking for a distance on.

The volunteer with the support of the club needs to have the proper person in the club contact the person at the District level in charge of signage to approve the numeric decal purchase for the distances calculated and order the decals from their supplier. After the decals arrive at the club, the volunteer can pick them up and install them when they can get to the proper sign and have what they need with them that will allow the decals to stick to the sign properly. Now the volunteer can go on to another part of the work that needs to be done.

BTW, the vehicle fuel and expenses incurred by the volunteer in completing this project in most cases is borne by that volunteer.

PLC, Great post ! You sure can tell you don't just talk the talk, you walk the walk. You are so right about the fact that it is usually just a handful of people in each club doing the bulk of the work. It is also getting harder to do said work with all the new rules, regulations and policy from OFSC. And you hit the nail on the head when you say all expenses incurred are borne by that volunteer! 

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We keep hearing the district is looking after this or that. Maybe signage can be arranged by the district (it can't be that difficult to use the ITG to determine the distances) and distribute the signage to the clubs.

 

Also wouldnt it be cheaper to have 1 district wide order go in as opposed to multiple clubs submitting their orders?

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This is not rocket science.  Yes it takes a little work but not that much. 

 

Order the appropriate signs with proper logos for food, gas, accommodations, etc. if necessary and a page of retroreflective numbers and use the OFSC Interactive Trail Guide to calculate the kilometres distance from a particular intersection, then attach the numerals.  Pick a nice day for a trail outing and install them.

 

No destination sign should be installed without the accompanying distance in Kms as there are lots of riders that don’t really know how far a town or other destination may be.

 

unfortunately some Clubs just don’t get it done or do it half-assed which is unfortunate.

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I use to carry a paint stick with me.

Lots of signs up with stickers for milage that have fallen off.

Wipe the sign off and put on the proper mileage. 

We had a print off to carry with all club destinations and intersection milage recorded..

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As previously mentioned the ITG usually is not available at the time the tails are being prepared. So acquiring mileages from it is not possible.

Also it would require that there is cell service available, which in our case (90 mins from the GTA), cell service is spotty at best.

 

This is neither excuses or half-assed, it is fact!

 

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ITG is not necessary just convenient.  Someone at the District can surely provide the length of each section of any Club’s trail if they don’t have them, after all they are updating Trail Status a couple of times a week.

 

Most Districts still have paper trail maps with Kms of each section.  Lacking that most snowmobiles still have odometers.

 

This doesn’t have to be done every year, only if some are missing.  I kept a photo file of every intersection, from all approaches.

 

The Fuel signs were posted at intersections and also between intersections as may be necessary.

ED1EC2C8-37EB-462D-A79F-F961A92A3D56.jpeg

075B7C97-F066-4952-9F49-AC30D41D242C.jpeg

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6 hours ago, bbakernbay said:

This is not rocket science.  Yes it takes a little work but not that much. 

 

Order the appropriate signs with proper logos for food, gas, accommodations, etc. if necessary and a page of retroreflective numbers and use the OFSC Interactive Trail Guide to calculate the kilometres distance from a particular intersection, then attach the numerals.  Pick a nice day for a trail outing and install them.

 

No destination sign should be installed without the accompanying distance in Kms as there are lots of riders that don’t really know how far a town or other destination may be.

 

unfortunately some Clubs just don’t get it done or do it half-assed which is unfortunate.

 

The clubs & their volunteers have to think as if they're tourists. Yes I've ridden back & forth to Eel's Lake for 30 odd years. What about Sledjunk, Big Pussy & Manotick Mike? They may never have ridden thru here. Now I know SJ has a GPS, but he's found 'errors on the maps. These guys (plis others) don't want to be standing around figureing out which trail is the correct direction.

5 hours ago, Bigfish said:

As previously mentioned the ITG usually is not available at the time the tails are being prepared. So acquiring mileages from it is not possible.

Also it would require that there is cell service available, which in our case (90 mins from the GTA), cell service is spotty at best.

 

This is neither excuses or half-assed, it is fact!

 

OK, I used ITG, do the clubs & or districts have access to the GPS tracks that are submitted for the ITG routing?

 

If I can chop up tracks to figure out distances, I'm pretty sure I'm not the only person that can do it.

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11 hours ago, revrnd said:

 

The clubs & their volunteers have to think as if they're tourists. Yes I've ridden back & forth to Eel's Lake for 30 odd years. What about Sledjunk, Big Pussy & Manotick Mike? They may never have ridden thru here. Now I know SJ has a GPS, but he's found 'errors on the maps. These guys (plis others) don't want to be standing around figureing out which trail is the correct direction.

OK, I used ITG, do the clubs & or districts have access to the GPS tracks that are submitted for the ITG routing?

 

If I can chop up tracks to figure out distances, I'm pretty sure I'm not the only person that can do it.

Not that I am aware of!

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13 hours ago, revrnd said:

 

 

OK, I used ITG, do the clubs & or districts have access to the GPS tracks that are submitted for the ITG routing?

 

If I can chop up tracks to figure out distances, I'm pretty sure I'm not the only person that can do it.

I had the gps tracks for our club that were provided for the itg.  I simply uploaded them to google earth.

 

Its a valuable tool..

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Sorry Yukon, but I have no idea how to do that! Sounds complicated, and not something that can be done trailside.

 

My responses were directed at the posters that think its nothing other than laziness on the part of the trail crew,  that they can't just bang up a sign and put some sticky numbers on it!

 

Perhaps because I have never used a GPS, other than the one in my truck, and then only a couple of times, so I'm not up on all the current technology. But somehow I have managed to live 70 years without one!

 

I'm a paper map guy. I consult the ITG only to see if the trails in the area I'm riding are open or not.

I tried to use it once to lay out route, unsuccessfully.

 

 

 

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