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Green trail =staked lake?


Poo Man

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I'm going to be sledding on unfamiliar trails after dark on Friday and just want to make sure. If a trail that goes on a lake is green is it always staked?

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2 hours ago, Poo Man said:

I'm going to be sledding on unfamiliar trails after dark on Friday and just want to make sure. If a trail that goes on a lake is green is it always staked?

Where you headed I'm sure someone on here will be able to offer some help or insight into the area.

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3 hours ago, zoso said:

No, I have been across several lakes that are green on the map and not staked.

According to the OFSC Sign Standards any lake that is not staked requires a Trail Ends sign where the land trail terminates.. Otherwise you need the Ice Crossing sign and a single row of stakes on the ice.

 

 

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The issue could be that the lake in question has not been designated on the ITG in sections to delineate the land portion from the lake trail portion.

 

see last section which I bolted, italicizes and underlined.

 

Personally, I would never fill out an A-03 certifying a Lake Trail is either Limited or Available if it wasn’t properly staked and signed according to the OFSC Snowmobile Dign Guide, some relevant portions copied below.  I will be interested to hear the opinion of other Signage Coordinators.

 

Ice Crossing
 Sign Placement – “Ice Crossing” signs should be installed approximately 5 to 10 metres prior to the ice surface.
 Controls –
 o o o
There should be no signage in the sightline within the distance from the “Ice Crossing” sign to the nearest shoreline.
No other sign can be placed at the same mounting location as the “Ice Crossing” sign.
A “Slow” sign to be installed (per approved guidelines) 100 to 120 metres prior to the “Ice Crossing sign.

 

 

Corridor and Lake Markers
 Corridor and Lake Markers serve for the purpose of defining the trail route and where applicable, the area within to groom the trail. Corridor markers do not necessarily define the absolute edge of the trail.


 Snowmobile Sign Guide – Developed by: Ontario Federation of Snowmobile Clubs (OFSC) 6 of 8
Snowmobile Sign Guide
Trail Signage Guidelines Version 10 – Jan. 9, 2018

 


 Stake or Post Placement –
o “Corridor and Lake Markers” should be approximately one and a quarter to two
meters in height, a minimum of 1 1⁄4 inches in diameter, with at least one full meter, of the marker, being bright orange (i.e. Tremclad Real Orange or equivalent) in colour, with a minimum 1 square inch of white retro reflective material installed approximately 2” from the top of the stake with a minimum of the two sides facing the direction of the trail.
o It’s recommended that stakes be installed a maximum of 100 to 120 metres apart (length) and may be installed closer together at club discretion.
o As a minimum, stakes should be installed in a single row when used to divide a maintained lake trail.
o When used in fields or other land based trails stakes should be installed in a double row, placed 1⁄2 to 1 1⁄2 meters beyond the groomed portion of the trail.
 Controls –
o Any lake trail that is not staked in accordance with the Snowmobile Trail Sign Guide cannot be considered a Prescribed Trail therefore a “Trail Ends” sign should be erected where the land trail terminates. (Note: If a lake trail is shown on a map or the Interactive Trail Guide, it should be signed according to the Snowmobile Sign Guide)

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4 hours ago, zoso said:

No, I have been across several lakes that are green on the map and not staked.

That doesn’t mean that this is the correct way it is to be done!

 

Any lake trail that is not staked in accordance with the Snowmobile Trail Sign Guide cannot be considered a Prescribed Trail therefore a “Trail Ends” sign should be erected where the land trail terminates. (Note: If a lake trail is shown on a map or the Interactive Trail Guide, it should be signed according to the Snowmobile Sign Guide)

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6 hours ago, Poo Man said:

I'm going to be sledding on unfamiliar trails after dark on Friday and just want to make sure. If a trail that goes on a lake is green is it always staked?

Any lake trail that is not staked in accordance with the Snowmobile Trail Sign Guide cannot be considered a Prescribed Trail therefore a “Trail Ends” sign should be erected where the land trail terminates. (Note: If a lake trail is shown on a map or the Interactive Trail Guide, it should be signed according to the Snowmobile Sign Guide)

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Brian, the Signage Guidelines are very clear for lake based trails. A designated Signage Inspector that is signing an A01 Form confirming compliance to signage standards (required in order for trail to be listed as Green/Yellow) when in fact it is not, is taking on huge liability should something happen. 

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2 hours ago, bbakernbay said:

The issue could be that the lake in question has not been designated on the ITG in sections to delineate the land portion from the lake trail portion.

.....

 

Then the club/district should provide the gps data to allow the lake portion to be reported separately. Other wise the whole section must be show as Red.

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2 hours ago, bbakernbay said:

That doesn’t mean that this is the correct way it is to be done!

 

Any lake trail that is not staked in accordance with the Snowmobile Trail Sign Guide cannot be considered a Prescribed Trail therefore a “Trail Ends” sign should be erected where the land trail terminates. (Note: If a lake trail is shown on a map or the Interactive Trail Guide, it should be signed according to the Snowmobile Sign Guide)

Legally there are no prescribed trails on a lake. You cannot enforce the permit on a lake, nor can you enforce the 50kmh speed limit on a lake unless a bylaw in that municipality has been enacted to limit speeds on lakes within their limits. IMO the OFSC does not have any trail on bodies of water.

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5 minutes ago, zoso said:

Legally there are no prescribed trails on a lake. You cannot enforce the permit on a lake, nor can you enforce the 50kmh speed limit on a lake unless a bylaw in that municipality has been enacted to limit speeds on lakes within their limits. IMO the OFSC does not have any trail on bodies of water.

Until somebody goes through the ice and drowns. And then it absolutely was an OFSC trail. Not talking about speed limits or enforcing permits. Its about risk management.

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5 minutes ago, Big Pete said:

Until somebody goes through the ice and drowns. And then it absolutely was an OFSC trail. Not talking about speed limits or enforcing permits. Its about risk management.

sure they will get sued, well maybe, not all people will. however, calling lake es prescribed trails is wrong. The very definition of a prescribed trail is contradictory to what laws on lakes are. So, being that it is a fact that a prescribed trail cannot be on a lake, all trails leading to a lake should have a trail ends sign. Technically the OFSC trail does in fact end as soon as the lake begins.

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To my knowledge there is nothing in the signage guide about placing an OFSC Prescribed Trail regulatory sign on a lake (or river) crossing. However, the club does measure the ice, stake the appropriate path across the lake (or river) to connect trails, and by doing so does assume responsibilty for that crossing.

 

 

 

 

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7 hours ago, Claire Voyant said:

To my knowledge there is nothing in the signage guide about placing an OFSC Prescribed Trail regulatory sign on a lake (or river) crossing. However, the club does measure the ice, stake the appropriate path across the lake (or river) to connect trails, and by doing so does assume responsibilty for that crossing.

 

 

 

 

Any lake trail that is not staked in accordance with the Snowmobile Trail Sign Guide cannot be considered a Prescribed Trail therefore a “Trail Ends” sign should be erected where the land trail terminates. (Note: If a lake trail is shown on a map or the Interactive Trail Guide, it should be signed according to the Snowmobile Sign Guide)

 

So is the above statement that Brian Baker included in a post above NOT in the signage guide???

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1 hour ago, PISTON LAKE CRUISER said:

Any lake trail that is not staked in accordance with the Snowmobile Trail Sign Guide cannot be considered a Prescribed Trail therefore a “Trail Ends” sign should be erected where the land trail terminates. (Note: If a lake trail is shown on a map or the Interactive Trail Guide, it should be signed according to the Snowmobile Sign Guide)

 

So is the above statement that Brian Baker included in a post above NOT in the signage guide???

It is included in the 2018-2019 Signage Guide Best Practices. 

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8 minutes ago, Big Pete said:

It is included in the 2018-2019 Signage Guide Best Practices. 

Yes it its. And damn, if we haven't been doing things wrong all this time. According to the guidelines (and legislation), there should be an OFSC Prescribed Trail sign every 5 kilometres. I'm pretty that there is NOT one on Remi Lake. 

 

Maybe somebody from District 17 can weigh in here, as I understand they have some ice crossings that are tens of kilometres long. 

 

But to get back to the original post: Nope. If it's not staked, I won't ride it. Don't like hard water at the best of times....unless it's chilling my Wiser's.

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1 hour ago, PISTON LAKE CRUISER said:

Any lake trail that is not staked in accordance with the Snowmobile Trail Sign Guide cannot be considered a Prescribed Trail therefore a “Trail Ends” sign should be erected where the land trail terminates. (Note: If a lake trail is shown on a map or the Interactive Trail Guide, it should be signed according to the Snowmobile Sign Guide)

 

So is the above statement that Brian Baker included in a post above NOT in the signage guide???

Yes it is, but there simply cannot be a prescribed trail on a body of water, similar to one that runs on the shoulder of a road. Permits are enforceable on prescribed trails. The permit is not enforcable on a lake, even when a club has staked and placed signage on the lake.

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33 minutes ago, Claire Voyant said:

Yes it its. And damn, if we haven't been doing things wrong all this time. According to the guidelines (and legislation), there should be an OFSC Prescribed Trail sign every 5 kilometres. I'm pretty that there is NOT one on Remi Lake. 

 

Maybe somebody from District 17 can weigh in here, as I understand they have some ice crossings that are tens of kilometres long. 

 

But to get back to the original post: Nope. If it's not staked, I won't ride it. Don't like hard water at the best of times....unless it's chilling my Wiser's.

I fail to see how legislation could demand a prescribed trail sign be posted on an area that the permit is not required.  This contradicts itself. Prescribed trail is protected for exclusive use sans any of the exemptions. A lake cannot be claimed for exclusive use by the OFSC, hence a prescribed trail cannot, by definition be on a lake. It seems to me that the signage guide is wrong. If we want to consider liability, what happens when you stake a water crossing in the only safe area of that body of water and deem it a prescribed trail, and a person without a permit is afraid they are trespassing and do not use that marked area, then have an incident. They would win a law suit based on the error in signage claiming exclusive rights that did not exist.

 

2.1 (1) No person shall drive a motorized snow vehicle upon a prescribed trail except under the authority of, and in accordance with, a trail permit for the motorized snow vehicle issued under subsection (2) or except on lands occupied by the owner of the motorized snow vehicle.  2000, c. 30, s. 3.

Trail permit required

2.1 (1) No person shall drive a motorized snow vehicle upon a prescribed trail except under the authority of, and in accordance with, a trail permit for the motorized snow vehicle issued under subsection (2) or except on lands occupied by the owner of the motorized snow vehicle.  2000, c. 30, s. 3.

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As you quoted, it certainly seems to give the OFSC or any other recreational organization, the right to establish and maintain a trail for use by MSV’s with no exceptions.

 

trail” means the whole of any trail established and maintained by a recreational organization for the use of motorized snow vehicles; (“piste)

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21 minutes ago, bbakernbay said:

As you quoted, it certainly seems to give the OFSC or any other recreational organization, the right to establish and maintain a trail for use by MSV’s with no exceptions.

 

trail” means the whole of any trail established and maintained by a recreational organization for the use of motorized snow vehicles; (“piste)

But you cannot claim exclusive domain on a body of water in Canada. it falls under federal jurisdiction. The OFSC is wrong on this one. The province has nothing to do with it and the MSVA does not say anything about it. 02 has said he owns the land under the water, which he does as per his deed, and even with that ownership he cannot decide who sits over that area and fishes, or who drives a boat over it. If we went by the logic above, the OFSC could claim seasonal roads as prescibed trils and enforce the permit, which they cannot.

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13 minutes ago, zoso said:

But you cannot claim exclusive domain on a body of water in Canada. it falls under federal jurisdiction. The OFSC is wrong on this one. The province has nothing to do with it and the MSVA does not say anything about it. 02 has said he owns the land under the water, which he does as per his deed, and even with that ownership he cannot decide who sits over that area and fishes, or who drives a boat over it. If we went by the logic above, the OFSC could claim seasonal roads as prescibed trils and enforce the permit, which they cannot.

 

Seems that the OFSC isn't the ones making that decision ?  Either way you would think that on a lake the same exemptions as on other prescribed trail would apply 

 

 

Quote

 

Regulations re trail permits

(8) The Lieutenant Governor in Council may make regulations respecting any matter ancillary to the provisions of this section with respect to trail permits and in particular,

(a) prescribing trails or classes of trails, or parts of trails or classes of trails, on which trail permits are required;

(b) respecting the issuance and replacement of trail permits;

(c) prescribing the term of validity of trail permits;

(d) governing the form and manner of displaying evidence of the issue of trail permits on motorized snow vehicles;

(e) prescribing records to be kept by the Ministry, or by a person authorized under subsection (5) to issue trail permits, with respect to the issuance of trail permits.  2000, c. 30, s. 3.

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Nutter said:

 

Seems that the OFSC isn't the ones making that decision ?  Either way you would think that on a lake the same exemptions as on other prescribed trail would apply 

 

 

 

Sorry but the Provincial government has very limited jurisdiction on lakes. the one they just got was impaired charges being tied to the provincial dl, and that had to get the blessing of the feds. So the quote above does not pertain to lakes, nor has the LG attempted to do so. Again, the information the OFSC is providing clubs is wrong. Like I always say, just because you do not like it, does not make it true. i know you love to tow the line, but man, take the blinders off, this one is obvious. Further you should not want a prescribed trail on a body of water, if that were the case the OPP would be doing radar on the stake lines and nobody wants that. Well nobody other than perhaps cops.

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