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Try Our Trails February 2nd and 3rd!


andreyboater

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12 minutes ago, zoso said:

What you are saying has nothing to do with the price of the permit. It is the money you have wrapped up in something you do not get to use as a total. Sounds to me like you have one foot out the door already.

 

Yes the permit is the cheapest aspect of the sport. One foot out the door but still hanging in there because I love riding and I’m already deep into it. Bigger loss to get out than stay in. 

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1 hour ago, J Feces said:

So would I. Pics are of trail on back of my home farm. To be fair this trail is not listed as open. That doesn’t mean it’s not being ridden though.. I kind of have to question the point of it all. Don’t get me wrong, I’m a life long snowmobiler and supporter of the system. I also own property in the north that has an ofsc  trail cross it. The money, time, and effort to put a trail in place in the south that might get 3 days use, and I say might! When we have areas in the north that have adequate snowfall and temps for a full 90 day season or more, and can’t get decent equipment to work with. It seems to me that it has gone backwards. We have used our trailers in my family for 50 years to access our property and good snow conditions. That will not change for us. Trying to sell permits based on being able to ride from home in the deep southern portions of the province seems crazy to me. Sorry if I have offended anyone..

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That’s what alot of the trails I rode today looked like with limited status. SOME trails were ok. I was expecting it but the sled can handle frozen dirt unlike granite and rock like in the northern regions. Was a fun day anyhow. 

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1 hour ago, J Feces said:

Sorry if I have offended anyone..

 

I have to ask ... does that happen often ?  (just kidding !!!)

 

 

50 minutes ago, IQ TURBO said:

All 3 of our permits went North this year..8-)

 

Mine too.  1st to Hornepayne, 2nd to Greenstone, 3rd to my cousin in Foleyet.

 

 

49 minutes ago, 04nightfire said:

did a bit of a ride on the destroy our trails for free weekend.  Trails are destroyed.  Gonna take a bit to get them back to half decent especially after the next two days weather

 

LMAO on the bold part .... sad but true in the South, hilarious to read it though !!

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1 hour ago, PISTON LAKE CRUISER said:

Unfortunately if what I've heard is correct, the club chosen on your permit application no longer gets a direct financial benefit by the permit purchaser choosing that particular club. Maybe someone with direct knowledge of how this works could chime in.

Here is how the funding model works at a local level. 

 

First all permit money stops at the district. No permit dollars go the club level anymore. And all permit dollar eligible expenses are paid by the district.  The district funding is based on

1) $53per km of land trail and $15 per km natural corridor

2) $68 per hour of grooming as per the gps tracking system. 

3) 10% of gross permit revenue. 

 

These 3 items are called the Cost Allowances. 

 

Now this is where the slight of hand occurs. 

 

District Funds = 10% of Permit Sales + Equalization Funding. Where Equalization Funding is equal to Cost Allowances minus  the 10% of Permit Revenue received. 

 

So, if a district were to receive say 10 incremental permits (at $190) from riders who wanted to support that district/club. The district/club would receive an incremental $190 (10% of $1900 incremental permit revenue) but the Equalization portion of the funding would be reduced by the same $190. So the district/club is no further ahead.  In order to be ahead you (District/club) need to increase trails or increase grooming. 

 

Now before everybody starts complaining what the new funding has done. It has allowed the permit dollars to go were there is snow. The assumption being more snow, more grooming. So who has been the beneficiaries of the new funding model. Overall it’s the rider. Districts that have longer seasons receive proportionately more money regardless of their permit sales. The extra benefit is that surplus permit dollars are centralized at the OFSC and have been used to fund the groomer replacement program. I think it’s 60+ new groomers in the last 4 years. 

 

 

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42 minutes ago, Denis007 said:

 

I have to ask ... does that happen often ?  (just kidding !!!)

 

 

 

Mine too.  1st to Hornepayne, 2nd to Greenstone, 3rd to my cousin in Foleyet.

 

 

 

LMAO on the bold part .... sad but true in the South, hilarious to read it though !!

Said but true with at least 4 sleds today with cans annoying the landowners while destroying the trails and venturing on closed trails after being advised the trails was closed beyond the point i was at. 

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8 minutes ago, Big Pete said:

Here is how the funding model works at a local level. 

 

First all permit money stops at the district. No permit dollars go the club level anymore. And all permit dollar eligible expenses are paid by the district.  The district funding is based on

1) $53per km of land trail and $15 per km natural corridor

2) $68 per hour of grooming as per the gps tracking system. 

3) 10% of gross permit revenue. 

 

These 3 items are called the Cost Allowances. 

 

Now o where is where the slight of hand occurs. 

 

District Funds = 10% of Permit Sales + Equalization Funding. Where Equalization Funding is equal to Cost Allowances minus  the 10% of Permit Revenue received. 

 

So, if a district were to receive say 10 incremental permits (at $190) from riders who wanted to support that district/club. The district/club would receive an incremental $190 (10% of $1900 incremental permit revenue) but the Equalization portion of the funding would be reduced by the same $190. So the district/club is no further ahead.  In order to be ahead you (District/club) need to increase trails or increase grooming. 

 

Now before everybody starts complaining what the new funding has done. It has allowed the permit dollars to go were there is snow. The assumption being more snow, more grooming. So who has been the beneficiaries of the new funding model. Overall it’s the rider. Districts that have longer seasons receive proportionately more money regardless of their permit sales. The extra benefit is that surplus permit dollars are centralized at the OFSC and have been used to fund the groomer replacement program. I think it’s 60+ new groomers in the last 4 years. 

 

 

Ok so the long and the short of it is all clubs need more trails for more money. See my post above...I can’t help but think some of these trails shouldn’t exist. Too costly to operate for the short period of time they are used. I get it, I understand, I live here and support the system. It seems like a waste to have new groomers sitting in a shed that they might be able to use, vs clubs that have snow, traffic and conditions that deserve better equipment. 

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3 minutes ago, J Feces said:

Too costly to operate for the short period of time they are used.

But those areas make up a huge chunk of buyers. Close the trails and people won't buy

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14 minutes ago, Poo Man said:

But those areas make up a huge chunk of buyers. Close the trails and people won't buy

Sad reality I guess. We will continue to pour money into areas that don’t deserve it. I will continue to go north. I will always be a permit buyer. I will always be a cooperative land owner. My land will continue to be used by those that don’t deserve or earn the right to use it. Am I the only one that sees this as a broken system??

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22 minutes ago, J Feces said:

Ok so the long and the short of it is all clubs need more trails for more money. See my post above...I can’t help but think some of these trails shouldn’t exist. Too costly to operate for the short period of time they are used. I get it, I understand, I live here and support the system. It seems like a waste to have new groomers sitting in a shed that they might be able to use, vs clubs that have snow, traffic and conditions that deserve better equipment. 

D2 has been moving their groomers around as there is quite a range of snow cover here.

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Just now, revrnd said:

D2 has been moving their groomers around as there is quite a range of snow cover here.

There needs to be more of this, a lot more of this. 

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25 minutes ago, J Feces said:

Sad reality I guess. We will continue to pour money into areas that don’t deserve it. I will continue to go north. I will always be a permit buyer. I will always be a cooperative land owner. My land will continue to be used by those that don’t deserve or earn the right to use it. Am I the only one that sees this as a broken system??

Putting my permit money into my area is certainly not putting it into an area that"does not deserve it" WTF man, if 10k people buy permits, they sure as heck want trails to be put in and groomed when snow falls, and they have bought that groomer. taking those people money and running trails in the far north is what we already do, take their trails and the north will close next season due to zero funds. If you think the few that travel north on trips and the locals up there pay what it costs to run the northern trail system, you are sadly mistaken. Just be happy enough in the south continue to buy in so you can ride in the north.

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30 minutes ago, J Feces said:

There needs to be more of this, a lot more of this. 

Yesterday I saw a Buckhorn District groomer on Stoney Lake trails. I mentioned this to the prez of Paudash today & he said the groomers are more or less district property & their groomer committee decides where the groomers will be working.

 

I imagine in the future that the only markings on the equipment will be a district, not club logo.

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24 minutes ago, zoso said:

Putting my permit money into my area is certainly not putting it into an area that"does not deserve it" WTF man, if 10k people buy permits, they sure as heck want trails to be put in and groomed when snow falls, and they have bought that groomer. taking those people money and running trails in the far north is what we already do, take their trails and the north will close next season due to zero funds. If you think the few that travel north on trips and the locals up there pay what it costs to run the northern trail system, you are sadly mistaken. Just be happy enough in the south continue to buy in so you can ride in the north.

Zoos I’ve read your posts. I get what what  you think of your position. Do you own any land besides where you live? Do you OWN any land that trail crosses? I do. A few hundred acres worth. I think my opinion has value. I’m an actuall invested landowner and will continue to be. Are you???. As I said before, I’m all in. I just think we need to realign where the money is actually spent. You will continue to bitch about being able to ride out of your yard. I will continue to provide land and support for trails that actually have value. Hundreds of sleds pass through my property on any given weekend on land I OWN. You are going to educate me? I’m sorry I don’t think you can understand my concerns. I’m out. 

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17 minutes ago, J Feces said:

Zoos I’ve read your posts. I get what what  you think of your position. Do you own any land besides where you live? Do you OWN any land that trail crosses? I do. A few hundred acres worth. I think my opinion has value. I’m an actuall invested landowner and will continue to be. Are you???. As I said before, I’m all in. I just think we need to realign where the money is actually spent. You will continue to bitch about being able to ride out of your yard. I will continue to provide land and support for trails that actually have value. Hundreds of sleds pass through my property on any given weekend on land I OWN. You are going to educate me? I’m sorry I don’t think you can understand my concerns. I’m out. 

Well said, and thanks for your dedication and continued support and allowing access on land..

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33 minutes ago, J Feces said:

Zoos I’ve read your posts. I get what what  you think of your position. Do you own any land besides where you live? Do you OWN any land that trail crosses? I do. A few hundred acres worth. I think my opinion has value. I’m an actuall invested landowner and will continue to be. Are you???. As I said before, I’m all in. I just think we need to realign where the money is actually spent. You will continue to bitch about being able to ride out of your yard. I will continue to provide land and support for trails that actually have value. Hundreds of sleds pass through my property on any given weekend on land I OWN. You are going to educate me? I’m sorry I don’t think you can understand my concerns. I’m out. 

I do not bitch about riding from my yard, but I do know if you close trails here and anywhere in the south permit sales will be so low the entire system collapses. It would seem you are oblivious to this simple fact. Not sure what having a trail across your land has to do with this discussion, perhaps you could explain that to me. If you think for one minute you will see 15 million in revenues without the thousands of permit buyers in the south that never go north of barrie, you have no clue. be lucky to sell 20000 permits if that and 1/2 of those would be in Sudbury and North Bay.

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Well here's what I seen of the Free Weekend.  On the only day the trails in the Perth County area will likely be open, I seen lots of girl friends out riding on some nice vintage sleds. I also seen young mothers out with kids riding as a family with papa.  The Grain Bin Inn was busy as always.  Full of people telling stories and having a good time.  A lot of those sleds will go back in storage now until next year when the families can have fun again.

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Read Big Pete’s excellent explanation above on how the money is disbursed.

 

The majority of the money goes to where there is grooming happening.  Grooming hours generates the funds, the kilometers of trails are not significant, meant to cover signage and minor trail maintenance.

 

Moving Groomers around the province as needed is very desirable but quite expensive to float the Groomers 500 - 800 Kms one way.

 

There needs to be a comprehensive Agreement between the parties on a multitude of issues as to who gets the revenue, who operates, what happens if groomer is damaged, or totaled, who pays for repairs & fuel, length of loan, what happens when loaning District gets snow and wants it back, etc.

 

Groomer loans need to be done and is being done for the good of the paying Trail Permit buyers but not always as easy as some think.

 

 

 

 

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12 minutes ago, Big Pussy said:

Well here's what I seen of the Free Weekend.  On the only day the trails in the Perth County area will likely be open, I seen lots of girl friends out riding on some nice vintage sleds. I also seen young mothers out with kids riding as a family with papa.  The Grain Bin Inn was busy as always.  Full of people telling stories and having a good time.  A lot of those sleds will go back in storage now until next year when the families can have fun again.

In the single weekend scenario you report it seems unfathomable to me as to why anyone would insure a snowmobile and only use it once or twice on the trails for the Free Weekend.  I hope that their weekend of enjoyment prompts them to consider buying a Trail Permit next year, most likely it is less than their P.L insurance cost.

 

Hopefully they are not traveling the trails without Insurance.

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2 hours ago, J Feces said:

 It seems like a waste to have new groomers sitting in a shed that they might be able to use, vs clubs that have snow, traffic and conditions that deserve better equipment. 

Catch 22 on that one imo.  Pretend its your local clubs groomer that you support and pay into groom your local trails. It gets sent to 800kms away to help a club in need. 2 days later your club recieves 2ft of snow overnight. Would you expect your local club to have your trails groomed that you support? 

 

Just a question, I have given this lots of thought...

 

 

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I'm sure the sleds would get used more IF there was more snow.  Young families cannot afford to pack up and go riding in the north.  I can only afford one or two trips a year and I'm an old man. The trail pass money is in the south.  No snow in the south and some more of that money will dry up so less to send to the north. Now that you are in the south, you can see first hand what we have to deal with here.  I very much doubt there will be trails open again this winter around Stratford/Mitchell.  There was ground showing on the plowed fields this morning.  The rain tomorrow will likely make the plowed fields all black.

 

I doubt anyone was riding without insurance.  $180 would cover the liability on those old sleds.  They are only 340s, 440s, maybe 583s.  If, by the grace of God, there is another weekend, they can buy a few day pass.

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6 minutes ago, Yukon Cornelious said:

Catch 22 on that one imo.  Pretend its your local clubs groomer that you support and pay into groom your local trails. It gets sent to 800kms away to help a club in need. 2 days later your club recieves 2ft of snow overnight. Would you expect your local club to have your trails groomed that you support? 

 

Just a question, I have given this lots of thought...

 

 

They should be switching these new groomers with no use on them to the north.  Not sure if that's how it goes but the north should have the best equipment in the province given the amount of time they use them.  

 

Even if the groomer was 8 hours away and they got 2 feet there may be no frost in the ground.  Or it might rain in a day and totally screw things up.

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10 minutes ago, Yukon Cornelious said:

Catch 22 on that one imo.  Pretend its your local clubs groomer that you support and pay into groom your local trails. It gets sent to 800kms away to help a club in need. 2 days later your club recieves 2ft of snow overnight. Would you expect your local club to have your trails groomed that you support? 

 

Just a question, I have given this lots of thought...

 

 

I'm of the understanding that the individual clubs do not have groomers. 

 

Also this season there have been some changes around here as to who grooms which trails. Since I can remember in the early 80s E107 from Apsley north was Paudash. It is now assigned to Stoney Lake. 

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3 minutes ago, revrnd said:

I'm of the understanding that the individual clubs do not have groomers. 

 

Also this season there have been some changes around here as to who grooms which trails. Since I can remember in the early 80s E107 from Apsley north was Paudash. It is now assigned to Stoney Lake. 

Is your local club not a grooming club?

 

11 minutes ago, gobills said:

They should be switching these new groomers with no use on them to the north.  Not sure if that's how it goes but the north should have the best equipment in the province given the amount of time they use them.  

 

Even if the groomer was 8 hours away and they got 2 feet there may be no frost in the ground.  Or it might rain in a day and totally screw things up.

But there is frost in the ground 3" and the lakes have been ready for weeks, nobody can predict the weather, not even the weather man...

Each district is treated fairly with groomer replacement and refurbishment. 

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Now the question nobody has asked or answered.

Where does the "north" start ??

Barrie, Parry Sound, French River ??

 

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1 hour ago, Yukon Cornelious said:

Is your local club not a grooming club?

Yes, but we don't own the 2 groomers assigned to the club

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