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QC puts the hammer down.


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2 hours ago, pt3189 said:

I bet ya they know about it by now. My neighbour has 5 sleds , every one has a can.they are a loud and proud group. And a real part of the problem.

Go give each of them a hug. Tell them you understand them but they need to change their ways. They will respond by getting rid of their cans right away!

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Why doesn’t the government or police in Ontario or Quebec go after the manufacturers/ suppliers of such exhaust?

 

in the USA the EPA went after the manufacturers of diesel truck tuners as they were against the law and the manufacturers who claimed only to be selling for race or off road were selling 100 or more times the number of tuners that would be required for off road.

 

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2 hours ago, Sksman said:

Why doesn’t the government or police in Ontario or Quebec go after the manufacturers/ suppliers of such exhaust?

 

in the USA the EPA went after the manufacturers of diesel truck tuners as they were against the law and the manufacturers who claimed only to be selling for race or off road were selling 100 or more times the number of tuners that would be required for off road.

 

because they are perfectly legal to buy and use.

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I dont like cans. I agree they have no place on the trails, I even mentioned this last year on this board in another thread. I support efforts to remove them but the approaches being called for, and the amount of anger involved and the level of intolerance towards understanding the "rebel yell" of those who use them concerns me FAR greater than the use of cans. The black and white absolutist thinking and tribal Lord of the Flies justice efforts so many people willingly pound around with such conviction is the worst and most dangerous behavios we humans possess.

 

The fact that I speak to this in an effort to have a discussion on solutions that make sense and get labelled so many completely false things by so many of you here? Should concern you all deeply.

Your futures are very un fun if you refuse to learn how to be a grown person who takes autonomous responsibility for yourself while respecting the rights of others as they too are YOUR RIGHTS. You cannot trample the rights of someone else without also trampling yours. The first thing that OUGHT to happen with this particular issue is to let the anger go and take control over your emotions.

 

Didnt you learn that when you were 5 years old? Perhaps regression is something some of you pride yourselves. To that end, I wish you good luck

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8 hours ago, crispy said:

I dont like cans. I agree they have no place on the trails, I even mentioned this last year on this board in another thread. I support efforts to remove them but the approaches being called for, and the amount of anger involved and the level of intolerance towards understanding the "rebel yell" of those who use them concerns me FAR greater than the use of cans. The black and white absolutist thinking and tribal Lord of the Flies justice efforts so many people willingly pound around with such conviction is the worst and most dangerous behavios we humans possess.

 

The fact that I speak to this in an effort to have a discussion on solutions that make sense and get labelled so many completely false things by so many of you here? Should concern you all deeply.

Your futures are very un fun if you refuse to learn how to be a grown person who takes autonomous responsibility for yourself while respecting the rights of others as they too are YOUR RIGHTS. You cannot trample the rights of someone else without also trampling yours. The first thing that OUGHT to happen with this particular issue is to let the anger go and take control over your emotions.

 

Didnt you learn that when you were 5 years old? Perhaps regression is something some of you pride yourselves. To that end, I wish you good luck

You offer no solution. There is only one solution. Enforce the laws we already have in place. You make out like there is no law against there use, and that the punishment is draconian, it is a simple fine. A smaller fine than a minor speeding ticket, and yet it causes far more harm than travelling 15 over.  You keep advocating we take a different path in addressing the issue, well a different path fails, and there is no time to wait until the dickwads grow up, by then our trails are closed. Sorry buddy, you are way off base here.

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Sorry Crispy....But the " rebel yell" as you call it has been coddled by parents and school systems that don't apply the discipline required anymore. So instead the rebel " Just Do It " generation thinks they can just do it without needing to respect anyone elses rights. The only thing left to get them to toe  the line is the law. 

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500 dollar fine. That’s my answer. Can be applied very easily I would think.

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The article from the Sudbury paper about the North Bay enforcement has been shared 657 times on Faceplant.

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8 hours ago, revrnd said:

The article from the Sudbury paper about the North Bay enforcement has been shared 657 times on Faceplant.

 

... mostly by kids with cans I'm sure ....

 

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There is no rush. The only issue is anger is being fueled and police powers are being pushed to solve it and that is my main concern. I dont profess to have all the answers to this problem I had hoped that a discussion on how to solve this could take place with PR efforts to the people lodging complaints and to the noise violators who are causing them. Its not a one sided solution imo this is a social problem that is growing all around us these days and its to that pattern I wish to see us all snap out of it. The goal for me was to have a discussion and table options and see if we could solve this without involving the police and that is not a bad thing is it?

Its this black/white absolutist thinking around here and some sort of tribal anger that leaves me the only one willing to speak out about it while I continue to attempt to stay towards my concerns with these efforts all your efforts are pointed at me, when the problem is cans and noise and PR for the club to which I dont believe this police solution is the best one. Thats it

 

Not rocket science, not a conspiracy, just some simple small town thinking that the best way to solve this is with some dialogue and respect rather than screaming for power over those who clearly annoy the hell out of some of you. I learned LOOOOOOOONG ago that you cannot understand what goes through a persons mind by guessing or assuming which I see a lot of, and even worse I see actions based on that. That attitude is not an isolated one towards can users and THAT is what you all taught me here in this very thread and it is a very concerning thinking pattern.

 

Historically when ANY society uses those tactics? Bad things soon happen.

 

White arm bands anyone? Papers, do you have papers to be here? Etc. Mock this all you like Im not the one blanket assuming anything about anyone im trying to keep the problems as they truly are; case by case and respect due process. Immediacy? Not in Canada, no WAY. Only fools rush in and only totalitarians scream for immediate solutions. Some patience and some PR efforts to have a dialogue with LUP providers could help here. Looking for some patience and some cooler heads, thats it.

 

To my earlier remarks I wonder how many of you are aware how unwell most young men are these days. The intense pressure from all the anger cast upon the younger folks has a deeper reach that EVER before on an exponential level and its leaving BAD MARKS on them. Keep it up at your future peril

 

https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/youth-mental-illness-costs-the-ontario-economy-421m-a-year-report-finds-1.4286084

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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My aversion to using the police is two fold

 

1. When the police are called on the youth? Its US WHO FAILED THEM, not the youth who failed themselves. We lead the way and teach them how to be and we do that as a nation, not as a them/us deal. So my core issue is this is something we need to take more responsibility for and use a lot less judgement and force.

 

2. Police is a job. When we grow this scope of work we require more police to do the job. When thing slow down police DO NOT RETIRE TO SOMETHING ELSE. They start looking around at other things they can politicize to make their jobs justified.

 

 

Those are my issues with how we are handling cans, vs Canada.

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Well by the length of your posts Crispy I would question who is the angry one. I imagine you would want to hand out blue ribbons for " participation" to these rebels on the trails or on the streets with illegal cans. But I do know that the ONLY thing these rebels will react to is fines and courts. Now we just need the police to do their job and less bleeding heart lefties giving  in to rebel actions.

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Im not angry in the least, im concerned over our approach. To that I offer a different solution entirely. Im willing to put my money where my mouth is

 

I am not capable nor involved with the social reach to create such a thing but if anyone here has the courage to call out can users on FB and start a funding page of some sort for our community to literally BUY quiet mufflers for can users I got a hundred bucks here for that effort. To receive funds you have to publicly post on SM your sleds can and list the quiet muffler system you want and lets start solving this issue by leading and inspiring instead of judging and hating

 

lets quiet these guys down and put some smiles on peoples faces for once

 

 

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Now that is really funny ....a funding drive to buy them mufflers to replace their cans. You cant be serious. What will that teach them...." if I break the law for any issue, someone will pay my way out" .......yep excellent teaching method!

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31 minutes ago, Panther340 said:

Now that is really funny ....a funding drive to buy them mufflers to replace their cans. You cant be serious. What will that teach them...." if I break the law for any issue, someone will pay my way out" .......yep excellent teaching method!

X2    I would expect that most people who have installed cans still have the stock exhaust.

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2 hours ago, Panther340 said:

Now that is really funny ....a funding drive to buy them mufflers to replace their cans. You cant be serious. What will that teach them...." if I break the law for any issue, someone will pay my way out" .......yep excellent teaching method!

Something tells me that is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. Someone has a sled with a stock muffler. They may not have a lot of money but they come up with the cash to buy a braap braap can anyhow. Then someone says to one of these people, you need a hug and need to understand cans aren't good for the trails. Landowners are complaining about the noise. Here's a $100, please remove the can and use the money to buy a stock muffler. $100 will cover the taxes on an OEM muffler.

 

How foolish can someone be to think for one second that this will work.

 

Reminds me of the post someone made here about the guy riding off trail on private property. The poster caught up to him at the gas station and tried talking to the offender. No hug, no sorry I'll never do that again. He gave him the finger. At least nobody was stupid enough to offer him $100 not to ride off trail on private property again.

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3 hours ago, crispy said:

There is no rush. The only issue is anger is being fueled and police powers are being pushed to solve it and that is my main concern. I dont profess to have all the answers to this problem I had hoped that a discussion on how to solve this could take place with PR efforts to the people lodging complaints and to the noise violators who are causing them. Its not a one sided solution imo this is a social problem that is growing all around us these days and its to that pattern I wish to see us all snap out of it. The goal for me was to have a discussion and table options and see if we could solve this without involving the police and that is not a bad thing is it?

Its this black/white absolutist thinking around here and some sort of tribal anger that leaves me the only one willing to speak out about it while I continue to attempt to stay towards my concerns with these efforts all your efforts are pointed at me, when the problem is cans and noise and PR for the club to which I dont believe this police solution is the best one. Thats it

 

Not rocket science, not a conspiracy, just some simple small town thinking that the best way to solve this is with some dialogue and respect rather than screaming for power over those who clearly annoy the hell out of some of you. I learned LOOOOOOOONG ago that you cannot understand what goes through a persons mind by guessing or assuming which I see a lot of, and even worse I see actions based on that. That attitude is not an isolated one towards can users and THAT is what you all taught me here in this very thread and it is a very concerning thinking pattern.

 

Historically when ANY society uses those tactics? Bad things soon happen.

 

White arm bands anyone? Papers, do you have papers to be here? Etc. Mock this all you like Im not the one blanket assuming anything about anyone im trying to keep the problems as they truly are; case by case and respect due process. Immediacy? Not in Canada, no WAY. Only fools rush in and only totalitarians scream for immediate solutions. Some patience and some PR efforts to have a dialogue with LUP providers could help here. Looking for some patience and some cooler heads, thats it.

 

To my earlier remarks I wonder how many of you are aware how unwell most young men are these days. The intense pressure from all the anger cast upon the younger folks has a deeper reach that EVER before on an exponential level and its leaving BAD MARKS on them. Keep it up at your future peril

 

https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/youth-mental-illness-costs-the-ontario-economy-421m-a-year-report-finds-1.4286084

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The only thing you are speaking out about is, the solution to the problem. The new enforcement on trail IS working. I am reading all over social media that people are getting rid of their noise makers. If you think that being pressured into following a simple law causes too much resentment in young people and turn them into some sort of sociopath, you have a grim outlook in the resilience of the young. Or, perhaps your desire is to have our trails closed. I say this because while you profess to want to engage in discussion, you have offered no viable alternative to us asking police to enforce the law. All I have read from you on this subject is how enforcing the law is somehow wrong.What about enforcing the tril permit, would you view that as wrong as well. Where do you draw the line. As to your assertion that there is some sort of tribal anger going on. You bet your ass their is. People volunteer thousands of hours to build these trails, pour in their heart and soul, and to see what you built being torn down by a few people that have zero respect for the vast majority, will rally the troops and get us angry and motivated to see it put to a stop. Your hatred for government is distorting your outlook and making you look like a fool. Ask anyone here how I view our freedoms and police in general, much of it aligns with your opinions on the subject, but I do see the value in asking to have what are reasonable laws enforced, as a matter of fact, the enforcement of reasonable laws is why we have police. There is no breach of any rights taking place here.  I also support the police in investigating violent crimes, theft etc,, you know all the things we as a whole in society deem to be a detriment to the enjoyment of our lives. Ruining what we built is a direct attack upon all that participate in legal on trail riding, and when we are attacked, you are damn right every tool at our disposal will be used to shut the attack down, and one of those tools is law enforcement officers.

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The city of Sault last night voted in to raise their city parking fines  because last raise in fines was 1989...perhaps instead they should have arranged for social support meetings explaining to the parking rebels the effect of their transgressions.....and if they can't pay fine a Facebook funding page will help them......sarcasm intended.  ;) 

 

 

 

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50 minutes ago, Panther340 said:

The city of Sault last night voted in to raise their city parking fines  because last raise in fines was 1989...perhaps instead they should have arranged for social support meetings explaining to the parking rebels the effect of their transgressions.....and if they can't pay fine a Facebook funding page will help them......sarcasm intended. ;)

 

 

 

They should have eliminated the parking fines completely and just leave notes on the windshields explaining it's not nice to occupy a parking space they haven't paid for.

 

I'm thinking for those that choose not to buy a trail permit we should give them a hug and a free trail permit and explain that we understand they would rather not pay for one.

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Ontario is broke. Police cost a lot of money. The ROI of policing cans isnt good value in my mind and your right I have issue with the endless growth of operating costs for Ontario and Canadas gov't vs GDP. All of my gripes and issues stem from this primarily and the secondary issue is the rights stomping red tape increasing BS we have to deal with as the gov't bloats. Thats my issue and I look at everything we do and ask "is this worth it?" and almost always that reasons up as a no.

 

In the issue of cans which as said I can relate I thought the same. Not $ worth it mostly because its the toss of responsibility towards a government solution pattern Im trying to break. Plus I can only really speak to the can users I know or have known and that is going to bias my opinion as you all have yours.

The fund idea to me was a PR based solution. Think of the average complaint that comes in to a gov't office or the police against sledders. Its NOT a fellow sledder making this complaint and its likely someone who already has a negative opinion on sleds and their riders. Soon as the police are used this serves to validate their anger as justified, and it also damages the PR of sledding as some sort of underbelly activity. The idea of offering as a community to equip sleds with quiet exhausts ( most old sleds for sale already have cans on them and there is seldom a stock exhaust that comes with the sale ) was to be responsible for the PR that the complainers have. Its a volunteer built network and I was trying to keep it that way.

If you get angry at someones activity and they willingly clean up their own act it earns respect and thats what I want to see. This is of NET BENEFIT TO THE OFSC on a PR front. Maybe theres a better way than crowd funding exhausts heck not one persons or company has offered additional input here, this was a quick idea I had the other day and if there was to be better ideas that lead to a positive outcome that dont involve the police Id support that quickly. Surely you can understand my efforts here are being lambasted but you can rest assured my goals are for the betterment of all of us.

 

So to recap; If we solve the noise issue using

 

no police?

1. No cost to us in more debt

2. can riders happier

3. complainers happier, and hopefully impressed which grows mutual respect for ALL sides of this issue

4. pride in the sledding community, less division, more thumbs up because "we did it ourselves"

etc etc etc

 

use police?

 

1. Admit sledders having fun are now some sort of criminal

2. increased cost to drive more debt and make more demands on those who already wrap us in too think red tape

3. BAD pr, news etc no good comes of this for us. Its another cinching of the noose

etc etc etc

 

 

Will the police efforts work? If you say so perhaps they will. Its to the above I try my best to speak to and I only want what I believe is best for all. Thats my goals I wish to offend none of you or upset any of you by stating this. I only wish to try and get some thinking and discussion happening towards a net positive outcome that doesnt require the Police. How can that possibly be looked at as bad?

 

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So out on the trails yesterday (Saturday) for a few hours seen at least half a dozen sleds without trail passes. Met no police or patrol. Asked one asshat what's up with riding without a pass ( no license sticker either) he says" didn't have time ".

He was probably too busy finishing his trail signage and brushing......NOT.

 

While at this intersection talked with another rider from Quebec with both passes. He said he can't believe how far behind Ontario is in comparison with on trail enforcement. No $#1t  I said.

 

We need our patrol officers to have more powers reinstated as they are actual riders out there more frequently compared to the OPP who are sent out on occasion that may or may not be riders. 

 

I know I'm not alone here. Beyond tired of putting so much time, effort and financial investment into this for these free-loading, ignorant people. The longer the lack of enforcement continues, the worse the disregard and disrespect for the system will get. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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I just had a great idea. Let's pull all the police cars off the road. We will just have a bunch of social media posts asking people nicely to not drink and drive, run red lights, drive way over the speed limit especially school zones, not Rob stores not steal from other people. Surely that will work better than police and penalties

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9 minutes ago, 02Sled said:

I just had a great idea. Let's pull all the police cars off the road. We will just have a bunch of social media posts asking people nicely to not drink and drive, run red lights, drive way over the speed limit especially school zones, not Rob stores not steal from other people. Surely that will work better than police and penalties

 

Its not an all or nothing concept. We need to be specific and look each issue and decide value on its individual merits and hit repeat. The math is cost vs gains and thats the recipe of the future

 

To elaborate How much does it cost to do "x" and what are the gains to the public? Then compare that data over time and improve as we go with each and every day/month/year and if we could grow our society to the level of respect where we no longer needed "traffic police" that would be such a huge win and a MASSIVE goal to aim for. Thanks for the input its well worth considering this in the future

 

Then we add compounds into this. Metrics, social goals etc. How does the public receive these actions? What does doing "x" reinforce or what does doing "x" ease for the public morale? How do we help more people have a more enjoyable life and live with the good spirited nature that brand Canada has previously created? This conversation is LOOOOOOOOOONG over do.

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Just wanted to provide some ideas on this topic. 

 

Many people are arguing for fines and policing however in my opinion, policing and fines won’t work at all.  It’s simply a cost issue.

 

First, if you pay two officers to stand on the trail to hand out fines (let’s say $100) they basically need catch something like 6-8 people per day to cover just costs.

 

Secondly, when a few people get caught, then the population of offenders decreases thus making it harder to get the 6-8 offenders to break even cost wise. 

 

Lastly, once people know there are police out, they avoid them.  I’m sure you’ve all stopped for lunch and heard people talking about where they just went thru a police check on the trails. 

 

For these reasons, policing simply doesn’t work and isn’t feasible.  On top of these reasons, the fine values simply don’t deter many people.  Many people could easily pay a $100 fine everyday they ride.  I’d honestly have no trouble paying a $500 fine every day I ride so the threat of finacial penalty changes very little especially the likelihood of being caught by the very limited amount of police per km of Ontario trails.  

 

Others have ave mentioned to target the manufactures.  This would be equivalent to targeting drug dealers and not drug users.  This is good in theory but also not practical as the manufacturers have more leverage and money to fight off a threat, have rights to make products and backings of courts/government etc... and targeting a manufacturer would also cost money; which someone has to pay for.  

 

Putting the the onus on OFSC to kick off offenders or making an OEM change to make their sleds harder to modify are also both non starters as neither want to invest money in something like this.  OFSC wants to spend money on trails not spend money to keep people off the trail. The OEM want to keep products easy to assemble not weld on exhausts so they are harder to remove or modify. 

 

One post sarcastically said to stop policing but for the reason I highlighted above, this is exactly what should happen - stop wasting money and police time fighting losing battles. The only real way to make change without major investment is to make people want to change.  

 

Think about impaired driving which was a major problem 20 years ago and now it’s only a fraction of the problem it was back then.  Sure there was money thrown at it and policing done but the significant change was peer pressure and society stopping it.  Some 20 years ago it wouldn’t be a stretch to see people leave a party half in the bag and drive home and now there’s no way anyone would let them do that. I’m quite certain almost every person here would also stop someone that is impaired from getting behind the wheel whether you know the person or not. The a social change from the way it was so to laugh off how much power society has 

 

So I feel the solution must come thru the community. Clubs can post signs in there clubhouse, people can write newspaper articles, trail patrol can influence in non confrontational ways, social media can be used there’s all kinds of ways to put onus on the offenders but most importantly the offenders need to be convinced it’s socially unacceptable.

 

We cannot sit back and hope more police will do it.  You can put Quebec on a pedestal for policing the trails but think about what that costs. How many less groomers does Quebec get since they have to pay police and tow trucks to haul off offenders? Their permit fees are crazy high and that’s not fair at all to use non-offenders money and take away from the trail quality so they can pay a tow truck to haul people off.  It’s not right to pay hundreds of thousand of dollars from snowmobiler funded money that could be used for better trails and waste it chasing a small percentage of problematic riders.  

 

To note, I have a modified exhaust on one of my sled and I’m 45. I also know people who have cans or modified exhaust systems and many are between 40 and 65 years old. It would be good if we stopped profiling our youth and saying they are the can users.  

 

Lastly Im certain some will point out I have a modified exhaust however there’s a major difference between a modified exhaust and a can. A can is simply to make a sound change where some people must modify exhaust for sled modification reason.  That difference is a large one but best left for another post. 

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I could barely afford a 100 dollar fine every time I go for a ride.

Very, very few snowmobilers I know could afford to pay a 500 dollar fine every time they ride. I can think of two friends that could cover that , but I suspect they are both too intelligent to be in the situation of having to do so repeatedly.

I may be wrong , but I believe that insurance is a factor in the purchase of a permit in Quebec.

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