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Who's attending the OFSC AGM this weekend?


Blake G

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44 minutes ago, catinental couch said:

That is exactly what I have conveyed to the examiners of the boaters exam very verbally and with loud emotion. This manner of licensing teaches no one anything and increases the risk of incidents. 

Rick, instead of joining them there should be motions made to abolish  this method of testing/licensing. Just because your neighbour jumped off a cliff, does that mean you should?

 

 

That analogy of jumping off a cliff really doesn't fit in this case CC, the MTO was/is allowing it to happen with or without our org's input and another org was/is already in position to provide that service. I'd rather see our org doing it or at the very least leading it, than someone else doing it with no connection to the OFSC.   

 

I can only hope most parents will still want their kids to do the traditional hands on classroom training (which is still going be available) alongside the online training, not only for the safety standpoint but also for the connection to their local club. 

 

I will say I was pretty peeved to hear a blurb about it on the Haliburton radio station not 30min after leaving Huntsville yesterday morning, with them using the Boat Smart course as a reference. 

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9 hours ago, sledjunk said:

OFSC, I believe.

I don't see a problem with the geofence. If there is an explanation for deviating from the groomers route it's not a problem. i.e. bypass an obstacle. get fuel. If it becomes a regular route change add it to the system. It would avoid things like groomers making a trail down a summer road so his buddies can get to their cottages and things like that. They do happen.

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1 hour ago, catinental couch said:

That is exactly what I have conveyed to the examiners of the boaters exam very verbally and with loud emotion. This manner of licensing teaches no one anything and increases the risk of incidents. 

Rick, instead of joining them there should be motions made to abolish  this method of testing/licensing. Just because your neighbour jumped off a cliff, does that mean you should?

The content and presentation of the material is the most important and if prepared well can be effective. My wife did the online boaters exam and had to watch the videos before taking it. In some cases the content i.e. questions in the exam were stupid. One of the questions showed a marker buoy and asked what it was called. Who cares if you know what the buoy is called. How about what the buoy indicates? In that question you had to answer bifurcation buoy. How damn important is knowing the name rather than knowing that the marker tells you the channel splits The exam has a number of questions like that. Personally there should be more focus on the safety aspects of the boaters exam rather than the technical. There was another question on the calculation of fuel that for most people would never apply.

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Better to take a Power Squadran course

Gets into more detail regarding operation, safety and navigation of the crqaft. Plus as a bonus, if you are successful passing the Power Sqadran course you automatically receive the Ontario Boaters Licence!

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1 hour ago, 02Sled said:

Is this not the license for the 12 - 16 year old kids so that they can ride with mom & dad? In some ways having a truly standardized course where the exact same information is available to everyone could be a good thing. As it is now we are relying on club volunteers to teach a course. It seems there are fewer and fewer volunteers doing this with a lot of clubs not having anyone to do it, nobody near their area doing it and perhaps only once or twice a year. You miss those dates and you are out of luck. You have to be 12 or older when the course takes place. 11 years 360 days old when the course takes place and you're out of luck. How many will decide to ride without that license because there wasn't a course available. Online it would seem you could get the education and license any time as soon as you are 12.

I'm confused by this as well. Is it going to be for people even with a drivers license? 

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32 minutes ago, Poo Man said:

I'm confused by this as well. Is it going to be for people even with a drivers license? 

no. It's for people 12 and up who do not have a driver's license. 

 

People with a suspended license due to infractions and fines are not allowed...

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2 hours ago, 02Sled said:

The content and presentation of the material is the most important and if prepared well can be effective. My wife did the online boaters exam and had to watch the videos before taking it. In some cases the content i.e. questions in the exam were stupid. One of the questions showed a marker buoy and asked what it was called. Who cares if you know what the buoy is called. How about what the buoy indicates? In that question you had to answer bifurcation buoy. How damn important is knowing the name rather than knowing that the marker tells you the channel splits The exam has a number of questions like that. Personally there should be more focus on the safety aspects of the boaters exam rather than the technical. There was another question on the calculation of fuel that for most people would never apply.

Some of the most important aspects of a 'manned' course are anecdotal lessons from the instructor.  There are still lessons learned when I took my firearms course when I was 15 (just a few years ago :-) ) that were not directly related to firearms, but were more related to survival.

 

Many instructors that I have spoken to, use similar techniques to impress upon the young students to use their heads to think about an issue / problem to solve it in a deliberate manner. 

 

In this day and age of immediate gratification, I can see older siblings or parents 'helping' to answer the questions with very little being absorbed into the minds of the named student.  Then they will be let loose on a 100+ HP machine with little to no supervision.  For example, in our area, the trails come alive after about 3:30 when the kids are out of school and it is time to blow off some steam.  This happens year round, even though the trail (part of the Trans Canada system and converted rail line) is not open to any motorized traffic other than snowmobiles in the winter.

 

Rick, I am not sure who came up with this hair brained idea, but if truly the boater exam people were pushing for this, we, as the voice of organized snowmobiling, should have pushed back against it, hard!  This is a safety issue, not a convenience issue.  As risk averse as the OFSC is, IMO they are opening themselves (us) up to huge liabilities for endorsing this idiocy.  The MTO does not allow any other licencing online and due to the age and emotional immaturity of the participants, this is NOT the place to start.  The boating license is just as ridiculous, IMO, but not nearly as dangerous.

 

 

 

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Sled Junk    I agree totally with your statements ,personal taught the course for 7 years .When you get a class room of eager young  students questions  are asked that  an online course could not deal with at all . You nailed it instant gratification . If parents can,t find the time to get their kid into a safety course like this keep them off the trail till they are older or they should get their prioritys straight .  Snowmobile is fun with a element of danger .  J.M.O.

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Devils advocate here, but how many of you were riding sleds before you were 16 and able to legally operate one? I get the idea of having a operators licence for legal reasons (liability and all that), but the online aspect will make riding much more easily accessed for families to participate. I know for myself, my kids birthday is early December. For that past 5 yrs, the courses were always offered in Nov. locally. That would mean another full year before he could ride with me, which sucks. Even though that date is still 2 yrs away, he already rides with me at home and locally on our property (50acres) and neighboring property for the last 4yrs on his own machines. I am excited for the day he turns 12 so that I can take him north, and put on some miles.

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1 hour ago, Yukon Cornelious said:

no. It's for people 12 and up who do not have a driver's license. 

 

People with a suspended license due to infractions and fines are not allowed...

Does this licence allow kids with no drivers license to drive on the trails? 

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3 minutes ago, snapper said:

Does this licence allow kids with no drivers license to drive on the trails? 

This is their first drivers license.  All of the information is stored at the ministry and will be carried forward as their license class increases.

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12 minutes ago, Zertrider said:

Devils advocate here, but how many of you were riding sleds before you were 16 and able to legally operate one? I get the idea of having a operators licence for legal reasons (liability and all that), but the online aspect will make riding much more easily accessed for families to participate. I know for myself, my kids birthday is early December. For that past 5 yrs, the courses were always offered in Nov. locally. That would mean another full year before he could ride with me, which sucks. Even though that date is still 2 yrs away, he already rides with me at home and locally on our property (50acres) and neighboring property for the last 4yrs on his own machines. I am excited for the day he turns 12 so that I can take him north, and put on some miles.

Yes, I was riding when I was 10, but not on public trails and certainly not anywhere near the potential for traffic that we have today.  However, there were no licensing requirements or DT courses in the late sixties. 

 

As for the availability of courses, that does vary on a club by club basis.  In the past, we have tried to hold a class through the winter months, but much of that is dependent on the instructors time availability and then pre-enrollment numbers.  With a trainer in the house, I have seen how much pre and post course time is required.  There is a listing on the OFSC site of all courses available, so you might have to travel a bit to get him trained.  Not exactly convenient, but, IMO, the personal training is well worth the investment in time.

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2 hours ago, sledjunk said:

Some of the most important aspects of a 'manned' course are anecdotal lessons from the instructor.  There are still lessons learned when I took my firearms course when I was 15 (just a few years ago :-) ) that were not directly related to firearms, but were more related to survival.

 

Many instructors that I have spoken to, use similar techniques to impress upon the young students to use their heads to think about an issue / problem to solve it in a deliberate manner. 

 

In this day and age of immediate gratification, I can see older siblings or parents 'helping' to answer the questions with very little being absorbed into the minds of the named student.  Then they will be let loose on a 100+ HP machine with little to no supervision.  For example, in our area, the trails come alive after about 3:30 when the kids are out of school and it is time to blow off some steam.  This happens year round, even though the trail (part of the Trans Canada system and converted rail line) is not open to any motorized traffic other than snowmobiles in the winter.

 

Rick, I am not sure who came up with this hair brained idea, but if truly the boater exam people were pushing for this, we, as the voice of organized snowmobiling, should have pushed back against it, hard!  This is a safety issue, not a convenience issue.  As risk averse as the OFSC is, IMO they are opening themselves (us) up to huge liabilities for endorsing this idiocy.  The MTO does not allow any other licencing online and due to the age and emotional immaturity of the participants, this is NOT the place to start.  The boating license is just as ridiculous, IMO, but not nearly as dangerous.

 

 

 

 

 

Dave the boating license people have been after this for a long time, I remember first hearing of it back when I was on the Trails Committee. It came to our table a few times over and we did push against it, after TC was disbanded I have no idea where things went with it within the OFSC with it.  All I do know is that if we didn't get on board now we would have been left out of it. 

 

I have to say that in a small way I'm almost hoping that the province makes it mandatory for anyone riding a sled to take it, like the boaters card.  I have come across many who didn't get involved in sledding through their family at young age, who didn't learn from riding with Dad, uncle or grandparent... ect, they just dropped $15-$20k on a sled with never being on one, no clue how to ride it or maintain it, and no idea of the laws, safe practices and trail etiquette that are all part of sledding. Those are the ones I'm more afraid to meet on a blind corner or hill then a kid that just started riding.  I honestly think the percentage of kids under 16 getting their sled license not riding with and receiving good instruction from family is very slim.  Of course I do think that all parents should still be enrolling their kids in the in class courses that will still be offered, but fully understand why this route is now being taken. 

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My sled history is about the same as SJ. Parents do need to teach kids under controlled conditions on private property with permission and no traffic. Only then would online licensing work out. As for convenience, because Johnny doesn't turn 12 until January and I want to take him sledding is no reason for him to be able to get his license. Training first, license later. That is the problem with the boating course. There is NO training unless you go through the power squadron.

Rick, I agree that if this hair brained scheme was to be administered, then the clubs/ OFSC should be doing it. NOT a bunch of license salesmen like what is happening with the boaters license.

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I didn't think the current classroom course had actually on-sled training does it?  You can still walk away with your sled licence and never have been on a sled before no matter what age. 

1 hour ago, snapper said:

Does this licence allow kids with no drivers license to drive on the trails? 

Yes.  They can ride the trails, but technically until they get their car driver's license they can't ride on/along  the road, or cross the road (they need a licensed individual to do it for them).

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5 hours ago, 02Sled said:

Online it would seem you could get the education and license any time as soon as you are 12.

 

The general concensus is, you won't learn jack sh!t. 

 

I took the boating course years ago and didn't learn a damned thing.  I've been operating a boat all my life though.  My son took the online boating course and prolly didn't learn anything of proper value either.  I taught him more about boating & safety in his first hour behind the wheel of our 14' than he'd learn in a lifetime of online courses.  He also took his Snowmobile Safety course a coupla springs ago, taught proper by volunteers, and I guarantee he remembers everything that was taught.  Hell, even I remember what was taught me in 1980 or 81 .... 

 

If you miss the classroom date by 5 days, too bad, it is what it is.  I'm quite sure those same kids would have been riding anyways whether they passed the course or not (seen regularly around here).  No different than if it was me missing my M2 course deadline 'cause I wasn't available to road test that day, no permit, don't ride.  Gotta make do with what you've got dealt to you.

 

The mention above about other people taking the course for someone else for beer money is exactly the reason we don't want or need this kind of BS training.  Buddy's gonna buy a guy a case of beer in exchange for passing the course, go pile up a $100,000 boat on the rocks 'cause he's a friggin idiot anyways... now it's an insurance claim, maybe a court case, all of which we're paying into with our insurance premiums and tax dollars.  At the very least, he might have a chance to learn something in a proper classroom course.  

 

02, I totally respect that you're entitled to your opinion and way of thinking, we're all granted that right.  However I have to strongly disagree with you on this.

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46 minutes ago, paulslund said:

I didn't think the current classroom course had actually on-sled training does it?  You can still walk away with your sled licence and never have been on a sled before no matter what age. 

Yes.  They can ride the trails, but technically until they get their car driver's license they can't ride on/along  the road, or cross the road (they need a licensed individual to do it for them).

Can see huge liability issues here if a 12 year old has an at fault accident and kills another rider.

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6 minutes ago, snapper said:

Can see huge liability issues here if a 12 year old has an at fault accident and kills another rider.

Not sure what you are getting at.  It's been this way for many years that you can get your MSV Operator's license at the age of 12.  Still need to ensure that they are insured on the sled just like with any other vehicle... 

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8 hours ago, Nutter said:

 

 

 

 

I will say I was pretty peeved to hear a blurb about it on the Haliburton radio station not 30min after leaving Huntsville yesterday morning, with them using the Boat Smart course as a reference. 

That's what reporters do.

 

When you consider that the only real qualification to snowmobile is to be able to afford it or at least have the ability to make monthly payments, some instruction is better than none. People are generally proud of learning a new thing though - maybe a small percentage will fudge the testing.

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3 hours ago, Nutter said:

 

 

  I honestly think the percentage of kids under 16 getting their sled license not riding with and receiving good instruction from family is very slim.  Of course I do think that all parents should still be enrolling their kids in the in class courses that will still be offered, but fully understand why this route is now being taken. 

This is exactly what I believe as well.

And Nutter, I agree while I agree with the theory of having everyone who owns a sled having an operator card like the boater example, I would see it causing more people to leave the sport who have been riding all their lives, due to feeling intruded upon. Some way of grandfathering would be required, but that would cause WAY too many hoops to jump through and new issues.

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I think that the kids should be able to take the sledders driver training as early as 10 years old but can't physically get their paper license until their 12th birthday. That way it doesn't matter when the courses are or when your birthday is, you can get your license right after your birthday

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3 hours ago, paulslund said:

I didn't think the current classroom course had actually on-sled training does it?  You can still walk away with your sled licence and never have been on a sled before no matter what age. 

Yes.  They can ride the trails, but technically until they get their car driver's license they can't ride on/along  the road, or cross the road (they need a licensed individual to do it for them).

Not necessarily a sled at the course but good driver trainers will have parts and pieces so the kids can do the touchy feely thing and ask real life questions if they are really interested. Pictures and slides can demonstrate much as well.

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11 hours ago, catinental couch said:

That is exactly what I have conveyed to the examiners of the boaters exam very verbally and with loud emotion. This manner of licensing teaches no one anything and increases the risk of incidents. 

Rick, instead of joining them there should be motions made to abolish  this method of testing/licensing. Just because your neighbour jumped off a cliff, does that mean you should?

The boaters exam is not designed to increase on water safety. It was designed to give police an excuse to stop and board vessels when no other reason is evident. 

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25 minutes ago, zoso said:

The boaters exam is not designed to increase on water safety. It was designed to give police an excuse to stop and board vessels when no other reason is evident. 

 

I could believe that.... 

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2 hours ago, catinental couch said:

Not necessarily a sled at the course but good driver trainers will have parts and pieces so the kids can do the touchy feely thing and ask real life questions if they are really interested. Pictures and slides can demonstrate much as well.

 

 

Back in the early 70's when our club house was built an oversized door was put in so a sled could be brought in to use as a hands on instructional tool, then sleds got to wide for the door. Our trainers also used to take the kids down to the groomer shed and show them the groomers and the rest of the stuff we use to run the club and provide trails. 

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