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MOTS deadline September 6/2018


Greggie

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MOTS has a deadline to move all assets from the clubs to the District what is paid by  permit money. Also the permit bank account need to move to the District. If I am right, this need to be done September 6/2018. If not all clubs of the District have done this, the District will not be in good standing. That means no permit sales for the District, also not receiving any funding from the OFSC. You guys think that this is an easy move??

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makes no scene to do it when its being held for you in an account  for your club  to use but we have not heard  about the rules that will be set  up on what you use it for   and if you don't do it then you are not a club  i guess they have not found out how to take fund raising money yet ether  some may take them to court or just say here is the whole thing you run it  

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34 minutes ago, mike37 said:

makes no scene to do it when its being held for you in an account  for your club  to use but we have not heard  about the rules that will be set  up on what you use it for   and if you don't do it then you are not a club  i guess they have not found out how to take fund raising money yet ether  some may take them to court or just say here is the whole thing you run it  

Are you sure that the full amount of a Club’s funds are to be held in a District Account for use only by the source Club and at the Club’s full discretion?

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9 minutes ago, bbakernbay said:

Are you sure that the full amount of a Club’s funds are to be held in a District Account for use only by the source Club and at the Club’s full discretion?

The MOU document that is being prosed is full of problems. Lets look at the groomer section. It says the listed groomer(s) will be for the exclusive use of the club unless the club authorizes other uses. So what happens when the provincial groomer coordinator writes the District and says the groomer is being cascaded to another district? Or has been targeted for a fleet reduction. Where does that leave the club?

 

As to Permit Account Funds transferred to the District. What prevents the District from just cutting off any other funding to the club (possible since permit sales stop at the District) and forces them to use up the funds covered under the MOU. The same might be said for Fundraising dollars too. Or what happens when a club goes to call on the District because they want to use the MOU funds for a special project that is outside their normal funding and the District doesn't have it. What is the clubs recourse should the District break their contractual obligations.

 

From a District perspective, I believe its Clause 6 that says the District is responsible for timely repairs of all equipment covered by the MOU. So what happens when the hydraulic pumps fail on my BR180 and its a $30k repair bill and the District is not willing or able to effect the repair. The MOU contract binds the District to the repair in a timely fashion. Has the District board fully considered its obligations under this MOU.

 

On a separate but related note, I wonder how many districts have adopted the new Standardized District By-laws and Standardized District Operating Procedures. These documents provide the governance framework for operating under MOTS. Without them its like playing a game without a set of rules agreed to by all. How do we ever expect to have an effective and efficient organization when we can't get the fundamentals right.

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25 minutes ago, Big Pete said:

The MOU document that is being prosed is full of problems. Lets look at the groomer section. It says the listed groomer(s) will be for the exclusive use of the club unless the club authorizes other uses. So what happens when the provincial groomer coordinator writes the District and says the groomer is being cascaded to another district? Or has been targeted for a fleet reduction. Where does that leave the club?

 

As to Permit Account Funds transferred to the District. What prevents the District from just cutting off any other funding to the club (possible since permit sales stop at the District) and forces them to use up the funds covered under the MOU. The same might be said for Fundraising dollars too. Or what happens when a club goes to call on the District because they want to use the MOU funds for a special project that is outside their normal funding and the District doesn't have it. What is the clubs recourse should the District break their contractual obligations.

 

From a District perspective, I believe its Clause 6 that says the District is responsible for timely repairs of all equipment covered by the MOU. So what happens when the hydraulic pumps fail on my BR180 and its a $30k repair bill and the District is not willing or able to effect the repair. The MOU contract binds the District to the repair in a timely fashion. Has the District board fully considered its obligations under this MOU.

 

On a separate but related note, I wonder how many districts have adopted the new Standardized District By-laws and Standardized District Operating Procedures. These documents provide the governance framework for operating under MOTS. Without them its like playing a game without a set of rules agreed to by all. How do we ever expect to have an effective and efficient organization when we can't get the fundamentals right.

As is the usual Pete, you have researched and brought to light potential issues that may come up. Now, has anyone listened to you in regards to these concerns?

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I understand (and know) how it works Here, pretty simple.

Biggest problem (in some areas) is fleet reduction and classification.

Fleet reduction was painted with a BIG brush not taking into account physical barriers and commen sense barriers.

Classification is a whole different pile of turds.

The club's and districts have to prove the above.

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Seems to me that it is suddenly a big rush and destined to have many issues.  I suspect that the rush is so that it will be done before the AGM so that even if the clubs complain, it will be too late.  Without money, there is no power.

 

And for any club that does not comply, they will not be in good standing and will lose their representation at the AGM.  Talk about being between a rock and a hard place.

 

My complaint has always been that without some authority, why would anyone want to step up to run a club.

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I can’t see it happen that the District will always repair the groomer in an acceptable time and what if the District is broke?

If the District get again $58 for a grooming hour but has to pay wages for every groomer operator, the total cost will be more then $58...

Does that mean that every club get a target grooming hours and they can’t groom anymore when they want?

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3 hours ago, Greggie said:

I can’t see it happen that the District will always repair the groomer in an acceptable time and what if the District is broke?

If the District get again $58 for a grooming hour but has to pay wages for every groomer operator, the total cost will be more then $58...

Does that mean that every club get a target grooming hours and they can’t groom anymore when they want?

Greg, you need to get a copy of the MOU and refer to Clause 6 on page 2. That is exactly what the District is agreeing to. Failure to do so would constitute a breach of contract. And there are legal remedies for that.

 

As I understand it (grooming hours) that is exactly what will happen. Here is your budget. If you go over you need to get approval for extra or shut it down.

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You all realise the clubs are the district right ?  that all district decisions  and policies should  or shall be voted on by the clubs, As far as who's groomer belongs to who and whether or not it should be repaired or when and if you should stop or start grooming these are all decisions that require input from all of the clubs. you should by now have a grooming comittee that is reviewing all equipment and trails  utilization and making decisions to the benefit of all in the district, not still stuck in the old world of its all about my club. Those days are long gone and we need to move ahead with the new reality of organised snowmobiling in Ontario

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Here's a club that's extremely committed to helping their neighbour:

 

 

tri-town sno travellers and club echo.jpg

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2 hours ago, Big Pete said:

Greg, you need to get a copy of the MOU and refer to Clause 6 on page 2. That is exactly what the District is agreeing to. Failure to do so would constitute a breach of contract. And there are legal remedies for that.

 

Pete, 

So the District has to have a fat Bank account and write a cheque for every breakdown of a groomer? Also if the driver is responsible for the break down or will the District fire that groomer operator? 

How I read this: if you break something, call the District and it will be repaired in a timely matter? Why will a club do the repairs by themselves....

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Greg, 

 

1) Yes 

2) Yes they should

3) Yes

4) don’t know 

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1 hour ago, Greggie said:

Why will a club do the repairs by themselves....

 

Not sure, but perhaps volunteer groomer repairs would make the club's allocated grooming money stretch farther, in case the funding (based on $ per grooming hour plus $ per kilometer) is insufficient to meet the actual grooming costs?

 

If a club could quantify the value of their volunteer groomer repair time, perhaps they could make a better case for receiving some of the district's discretionary money?

 

Understandably, most supporters identify with and volunteer for their local clubs. Fewer identify with and volunteer for their district.

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So what happens when a club purchases a special piece of equipment ie the big brusher that polar bear riders bought through fund raising?  Just curious as I don't really know the ins and outs of all of this.  Thanks

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I don't think that groomer ownership has changed with MOTS. For many years prior to MOTS, groomers  purchased by OFSC clubs with any portion paid by permit dollars have been owned by the OFSC according to what I have been told. I don't know of any instance where that created an issue. The only difference now is that the district controls the groomers rather than the clubs or grooming associations. 

Long story short as far as I'm concerned its working. Case in point this season when Polar Bear Riders had a groomer go down, they asked on Facebook if any southern clubs would consider sending a groomer north for their use. Southern clubs couldn't make such a decision because their district control the groomers. The Polar Bears' district office took care of finding a groomer for their use from within their district and said groomer was moved to Cochrane. The MOTS system worked the way it is supposed to.

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4 hours ago, Greggie said:

Pete, 

So the District has to have a fat Bank account and write a cheque for every breakdown of a groomer? Also if the driver is responsible for the break down or will the District fire that groomer operator? 

How I read this: if you break something, call the District and it will be repaired in a timely matter? Why will a club do the repairs by themselves....

So with 2 years of your moaning and groaning about mots.   Now you get it figured out..  I thought you might of done a little bit of research. 

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7 minutes ago, PISTON LAKE CRUISER said:

I don't think that groomer ownership has changed with MOTS. For many years prior to MOTS, groomers  purchased by OFSC clubs with any portion paid by permit dollars have been owned by the OFSC according to what I have been told. I don't know of any instance where that created an issue. The only difference now is that the district controls the groomers rather than the clubs or grooming associations. 

Long story short as far as I'm concerned its working. Case in point this season when Polar Bear Riders had a groomer go down, they asked on Facebook if any southern clubs would consider sending a groomer north for their use. Southern clubs couldn't make such a decision because their district control the groomers. The Polar Bears' district office took care of finding a groomer for their use from within their district and said groomer was moved to Cochrane. The MOTS system worked the way it is supposed to.

Your right.  In district is real easy.  Out of is a little more confusion.   But it can work.

At least groomers are going to help.where needed and when needed. 

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4 hours ago, Greggie said:

Pete, 

So the District has to have a fat Bank account and write a cheque for every breakdown of a groomer? Also if the driver is responsible for the break down or will the District fire that groomer operator? 

How I read this: if you break something, call the District and it will be repaired in a timely matter? Why will a club do the repairs by themselves....

I guess it depends on how the district sets things up.  Our district/grooming association has a system where regular maintenance is paid by the clubs currently but the district keeps a pool of money aside for significant unforeseen issues.  If the groomer or trail issue exceeds a clubs ability they go the the district and request additional funding.  Kind of like an insurance plan if you will, each club doesn't have to have funds on hand to deal with the worst case situation as it can happen to anyone but unlikely to happen to everyone.  

 

As to the responsibility placed on operators I have a bit of an interesting view on that as my second trip out I had a little incident (with the guy training me taking a nap in the passenger seat on an 18 hour run) and pretty much snapped on of the wings off the bush side on a Pisten Bulley.  Sometimes I wish I got "fired" (we were and are still primarily volunteer operators in our district) after that as I would have 100s of hours of extra time and way less stress as it is unlikely I would end up in the position as president I am now. I guess that explains why I have a bit more sympathy for issues such as this, sometimes "poop" happens.  

 

  As to the repairs in that instance and others we (volunteers) got the repairs done as quickly as possible and the district providing some funds (can't remember exact cost but it was well into the thousands and thus ).  There was never really any discussion or debate on how things would get repaired, they just were done in as timely a manner as we could to ensure that we could continue to provide the best trails possible for the permit buyers, isn't that why we all do what we do with respect to volunteering with our clubs/district/ofsc?

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45 minutes ago, PISTON LAKE CRUISER said:

I don't think that groomer ownership has changed with MOTS. For many years prior to MOTS, groomers  purchased by OFSC clubs with any portion paid by permit dollars have been owned by the OFSC according to what I have been told. I don't know of any instance where that created an issue. The only difference now is that the district controls the groomers rather than the clubs or grooming associations. 

Long story short as far as I'm concerned its working. Case in point this season when Polar Bear Riders had a groomer go down, they asked on Facebook if any southern clubs would consider sending a groomer north for their use. Southern clubs couldn't make such a decision because their district control the groomers. The Polar Bears' district office took care of finding a groomer for their use from within their district and said groomer was moved to Cochrane. The MOTS system worked the way it is supposed to.

Have you heard of the Hells Angels? Join that club and your Harley becomes the clubs, sounds like the OFSC took a page out of their book.

 

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I'm not sure why every is so against MOTS, Sudbury has been running that way since its inception and it works pretty good.

Some will argue otherwise (step in here ceaig).

Most issues are specific to an individual not the system in place.

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3 hours ago, soupkids said:

I'm not sure why every is so against MOTS, Sudbury has been running that way since its inception and it works pretty good.

Some will argue otherwise (step in here ceaig).

Most issues are specific to an individual not the system in place.

Sorry, but it sure didn't look like it was working last year when we visited.  A few years ago, I was touting the Sudbury area as a great area, after last year, not so much.

 

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15 hours ago, matt17 said:

I guess it depends on how the district sets things up.  Our district/grooming association has a system where regular maintenance is paid by the clubs currently but the district keeps a pool of money aside for significant unforeseen issues.  If the groomer or trail issue exceeds a clubs ability they go the the district and request additional funding.  Kind of like an insurance plan if you will, each club doesn't have to have funds on hand to deal with the worst case situation as it can happen to anyone but unlikely to happen to everyone.  

 

As to the responsibility placed on operators I have a bit of an interesting view on that as my second trip out I had a little incident (with the guy training me taking a nap in the passenger seat on an 18 hour run) and pretty much snapped on of the wings off the bush side on a Pisten Bulley.  Sometimes I wish I got "fired" (we were and are still primarily volunteer operators in our district) after that as I would have 100s of hours of extra time and way less stress as it is unlikely I would end up in the position as president I am now. I guess that explains why I have a bit more sympathy for issues such as this, sometimes "poop" happens.  

 

  As to the repairs in that instance and others we (volunteers) got the repairs done as quickly as possible and the district providing some funds (can't remember exact cost but it was well into the thousands and thus ).  There was never really any discussion or debate on how things would get repaired, they just were done in as timely a manner as we could to ensure that we could continue to provide the best trails possible for the permit buyers, isn't that why we all do what we do with respect to volunteering with our clubs/district/ofsc?

Matt, under MOTS, that will change as the clubs now have NO MONEY.  All permit funds have to be turned over to the district,  so even the small bills are paid by the district.  As for volunteer repairs, I fear that they will dwindle as the volunteer efforts would be only saving the district money, with no benefit to the club.  Yes, the equipment gets repaired, but there is no difference to the club if it gets repaired for free, or if there was a labour cost attached.

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