Caution / Warning - North Bay truck & trailer Blitz

[Poo Man]

6 minutes ago, PISTON LAKE CRUISER said:

I would completely agree with your interpretation.

Yea anything over a really light enclosed 2 sled trailer and you gotta sticker them. You see 1/2 tons with one sled in bed pulling a two place with 3 adults and gear, gotta be over. But same guy can hook a 15000lbs 5th wheel on, and it's good to go!

[PISTON LAKE CRUISER]

23 minutes ago, Poo Man said:

Yea anything over a really light enclosed 2 sled trailer and you gotta sticker them. You see 1/2 tons with one sled in bed pulling a two place with 3 adults and gear, gotta be over. But same guy can hook a 15000lbs 5th wheel on, and it's good to go!

Would the under 2,800 kg. trailer weight limit exemption rule not make your scenario above exempt from needing the stickers?

[Poo Man]

33 minutes ago, PISTON LAKE CRUISER said:

Would the under 2,800 kg. trailer weight limit exemption rule not make your scenario above exempt from needing the stickers?

I don't think you could be under 10,000lbs. 6500lbs truck+1000lbs in gear and people+1600lbs sleds+1500lbs trailer=600lbs over. Even worse in a 3/4 ton since its probably a good 1000lbs more. I think you would be fine if it was just a light 2 place and 2 people, but if you ever wanted to haul more your risking it. 

[Panther340]

Maybe my grey haired brain is showing, but can some one tell me if I am legal. I have 2014 GMC Sierra 1500 Double cab 4 x4 with 5.3 litre , I tow at times my double axle landscape trailer , it weighs 2400 lbs ,  my load is a Kubota side by side that also weighs 2400 lbs. I chain it down at all four corners. So my weight of trailer and load is under 5000 ( that is 1000 lbs less than my trailer manufacturer sticker allows me to carry ) , I have always thought I was all legal. ( and I haul that to my daughters and she lives a kilometer south of that MTO weigh station Buoy Boy is talking about being a stickler this week.  )  Now assuming I am right and I am legal , I also at times haul my Kubota small tractor with various attachments on that same trailer , but at most the load is maybe at most 2400 lbs and trailer is 2400 so total is less than the 5000 ,  but a tractor might be seen as a working tool wheras the side by side is a recreational vehicle.

What thoughts are out there or should I visit a MTO office?

 

edit I confirmed in my truck owners manual and my truck is spec'd to pull a trailer up to 9600 lbs so that part is okay ...just MTO aspect is ????

[02Sled]

1 hour ago, PISTON LAKE CRUISER said:

Would the under 2,800 kg. trailer weight limit exemption rule not make your scenario above exempt from needing the stickers?

The weight of the trailer becomes irrelevant in some cases. If the truck pulling it is over 4500kg the truck and trailer both require inspection. If the truck and trailer combined are over 4500kg they need inspection.

[PISTON LAKE CRUISER]

20 minutes ago, 02Sled said:

The weight of the trailer becomes irrelevant in some cases. If the truck pulling it is over 4500kg the truck and trailer both require inspection. If the truck and trailer combined are over 4500kg they need inspection.

He mentioned a half ton which would typically be approx 3000 kg. GVWR. A 11' Triton open bed is approx. 775 kg. GVWR. so the total of the 2  would only be 3775 kg. and so in this case the 2800 kg. figure would be useable I believe.

Actually even with an enclosed 2 place it might be less than 4,500 kg. total.

[Poo Man]

38 minutes ago, Panther340 said:

Maybe my grey haired brain is showing, but can some one tell me if I am legal. I have 2014 GMC Sierra 1500 Double cab 4 x4 with 5.3 litre , I tow at times my double axle landscape trailer , it weighs 2400 lbs ,  my load is a Kubota side by side that also weighs 2400 lbs. I chain it down at all four corners. So my weight of trailer and load is under 5000 ( that is 1000 lbs less than my trailer manufacturer sticker allows me to carry ) , I have always thought I was all legal. ( and I haul that to my daughters and she lives a kilometer south of that MTO weigh station Buoy Boy is talking about being a stickler this week.  )  Now assuming I am right and I am legal , I also at times haul my Kubota small tractor with various attachments on that same trailer , but at most the load is maybe at most 2400 lbs and trailer is 2400 so total is less than the 5000 ,  but a tractor might be seen as a working tool wheras the side by side is a recreational vehicle.

What thoughts are out there or should I visit a MTO office?

 

edit I confirmed in my truck owners manual and my truck is spec'd to pull a trailer up to 9600 lbs so that part is okay ...just MTO aspect is ????

Weigh your truck at a dump or something. I think your easily over with your Kubota. Your truck is probably 6500lbs give or take a few hundred with you in it full of gas. It would need to weigh 5200lbs for you to be under with your trailer. That said it's a gamble if your bothered. Personally I would sticker it due to the fact that your tandem with Kubota is likely to attract some attention.

[Poo Man]

6 minutes ago, PISTON LAKE CRUISER said:

He mentioned a half ton which would typically be approx 3000 kg. GVWR. A 11' Triton open bed is approx. 775 kg. GVWR. so the total of the 2  would only be 3775 kg. and so in this case the 2800 kg. figure would be useable I believe.

Actually even with an enclosed 2 place it might be less than 4,500 kg. total.

Problem is more with the enclosed trailers. Guys pulling 7x14 v noses weighing 2000lbs unloaded. Also the mto doesn't care what your trailer says it weighs, it's what it actually weighs. Same with gvwr on your truck. Very easy to exceed when your full of gear and people with extra fuel. 

[zoso]

21 hours ago, 02Sled said:

Nope - as soon as you connect that trailer the combined weight is over the 4500kg and both need to be inspected. See the very last line in bold.

 

Let’s begin by defining what the term ‘vehicle’ includes when pertaining to this safety inspection.  It includes, but not limited to, pickup trucks, truck tractors, trade vans, mini van or a two- and four-wheel drive sport utility vehicles (SUV) being used to transport cargo with the vehicle’s seats removed. The ‘trailer’ being towed can be, and not limited to, general purpose utility trailers, a boat, snowmobile, livestock or cargo trailers.

 

• Total Gross Weight is determined by adding the weight of the driver, passenger, fuel, equipment, tools, cargo, etc. carried by the vehicle and/or trailer.
• Registered Gross Weight (RGW) is the maximum weight used to determine the fee paid for the motor vehicle’s licence plates which can be found on the right (plate) portion of a vehicle’s ownership next to “REG. CROSS WT.” This weight is based on, and must be at least equal to, the actual weight of the vehicle and its heaviest load.
• Manufacturer’s Gross Vehicle Weight Rating (MGVWR) is established by the manufacturer and is the maximum weight the vehicle can be safely loaded. This can be found on the vehicle identification number (VIN) plate, on the driver’s door or door post on a vehicle or in the glove compartment.

The yellow sticker which is granted upon passing the Annual Inspection and Safety Certificate (SSC)?  According to the Ministry of Transportation (MTO), a SSC is required if:

• the total gross weight, registered gross weight (RGW) or manufacturer’s gross vehicle weight rating (MGVWR) of the vehicle exceeds 4,500 kg or 9,920 lbs.

OR

• the combined weight of the vehicle and towed trailer or converter dolly exceeds 4,500 kg or 9,920 lbs.

This seems pretty clear. Lets say my vehicle has mgvwr of 6300 pounds, no yellow sticker needed. Now, lets say the trailer I am towing weighs 1500 lbs, and has two axles. I have a truck that weighs 5000 lbs, so now my total empty weight with the trailer is hooked on is lbs6500, the cargo weight in the truck including passengers is 1000 lbs, now I am at 7500 lbs, and can load 2419 lbs in the trailer have a total gross combines weight of 9919lbs and legally tow it with no inspection sticker. How is this not clear cut. According to what you posted it seems to be pretty easy to figure out and nowhere does it say anything about what the trailer is rated for, only mentions the need if it would bring the total weight of the non yellow sticker pick up above the 9920 threshold. So, as I read this, it seems if the total weight of the vehicle and trailer are under the 9920lbs, and the vehicle does not require a yellow sticker on its own, you are fine to tow a trailer that may well be rated for more. Had this said the rated weight for the trailer, combined with the rated weight for the vehicle had to be added regardless of actual weight, then there is an issue with a trailer with two 3500 lb axles, but that is not what it says. Now, being cops and mto seem to be confused themselves and may not understand the law, if in fact what you posted is the law, then you are screwed because they will be judge and jury on the side of the road and will make you drop your trailer if the officer thinks the rated capacity of the trailer is used to calculate legality.

[02Sled]

16 minutes ago, PISTON LAKE CRUISER said:

He mentioned a half ton which would typically be approx 3000 kg. GVWR. A 11' Triton open bed is approx. 775 kg. GVWR. so the total of the 2  would only be 3775 kg. and so in this case the 2800 kg. figure would be useable I believe.

Actually even with an enclosed 2 place it might be less than 4,500 kg. total.

Basically any combination which totals less than 4500 kg is exempt. UNLESS I.E.

 

A sled trailer which would normally be exempt has been typically towed by a truck which is over 4500kg alone. Then the sled trailer needs to be inspected. Once the sled trailer has been inspected whatever tows it also needs to be inspected as well. So now you have a truck and trailer combination that is under 4500kg but since the trailer is inspected the pickup towing it (which would normally be exempt) requires an inspection. Now once that pickup has been inspected and has the yellow sticker, whatever it tows needs inspection even if the trailer normally wouldn't require it.

 

[PISTON LAKE CRUISER]

29 minutes ago, Poo Man said:

Problem is more with the enclosed trailers. Guys pulling 7x14 v noses weighing 2000lbs unloaded. Also the mto doesn't care what your trailer says it weighs, it's what it actually weighs. Same with gvwr on your truck. Very easy to exceed when your full of gear and people with extra fuel. 

Actually the MTO can figure it based on the actual weight (G.V.W.) of the combined trailer and the truck as they see it   OR  on the combined GVWR of the truck and of the trailer. If they have portable scales with them they will use whichever method will let them write you a ticket.  By either method you are good up to 4,500 kg. (approx. 9900 lb.) without stickers or added license weight if neither unit already has a sticker on it.

[Poo Man]

21 minutes ago, PISTON LAKE CRUISER said:

Actually the MTO can figure it based on the actual weight (G.V.W.) of the combined trailer and the truck as they see it   OR  on the combined GVWR of the truck and of the trailer. If they have portable scales with them they will use whichever method will let them write you a ticket.  By either method you are good up to 4,500 kg. (approx. 9900 lb.) without stickers or added license weight if neither unit already has a sticker on it.

Then you would automatically need a sticker on both if you tow any non recreational tandem.

[PISTON LAKE CRUISER]

1 hour ago, Poo Man said:

Then you would automatically need a sticker on both if you tow any non recreational tandem.

That is a reasonably safe statement IMHO.

[GTC]

6 hours ago, PISTON LAKE CRUISER said:

He mentioned a half ton which would typically be approx 3000 kg. GVWR. A 11' Triton open bed is approx. 775 kg. GVWR. so the total of the 2  would only be 3775 kg. and so in this case the 2800 kg. figure would be useable I believe.,

Actually even with an enclosed 2 place it might be less than 4,500 kg. total.

We have scales in our yard, my brother weighed his ram 1500 with triton enclosed 2 place trailer and 2 sleds, total weight was 3700kg, I would think most trucks and 2 place trailers should be ok.

 

[PISTON LAKE CRUISER]

21 minutes ago, GTC said:

We have scales in our yard, my brother weighed his ram 1500 with triton enclosed 2 place trailer and 2 sleds, total weight was 3700kg, I would think most trucks and 2 place trailers should be ok.

 

As long as the truck is a 1500. Once you go to a 3/4 ton the combined GVWR will often be over 4500 kg. and so then would require stickers. The half ton with a 2 bed Triton is a safe bet as long as neither the truck or the trailer don't already have a yellow sticker.

[catinental couch]

.....  unless you are like me and overload everything you drive. That was the reason I wound up with a dually.

[grover_yyz]

I hope this picture will help cut through the confusion as I still find it confusing when switching between lbs and kg. I believe my 2014 RAM eco-diesel of a GVWR of 3153kg and my enclosed 21ft trailer 3181kg (never realized how heavy the trailer was when I bought it). Total weight will be 6334kg empty so I am over the 4500kg so stickers are required on both. I am considering selling the trailer now and getting a lighter two spot trailer to avoid all the hassle of inspections. 

 

Jerry

[catinental couch]

Well Grover. Half tons are not exempt. No stickers = MTO argument. 

Both units stickered = less MTO argument. 

Bottom line = If you get a crappy MTO officer or cop, there will be an argument either way. Find someone you can trust and get the yearly inspections done and stickers installed. This problem is not going away and will probably get worse. 

Your experiences WILL vary

[GTC]

I havent actually weighed my 2500 and trailer yet, I think the truck and trailer empty is around 4100kg, so i should be good for 1.5 sleds, no passengers and no gear. 

Im ok with yellow stickers on both, its just the pain in the ass of other trailers i tow that dont need a sticker

[catinental couch]

I agree GTC but I don't make the rules. I just have to abide by them.

if I felt like writing a novel on this topic you wouldn't believe the horror stories I could tell you. Since we have so many trying to bend the rules, government dad( or mom in Ontario's case) feels they have to step in to protect us from ourselves. Personally, I would like to go up to the bush and hide the rest of my life there and if I see a bureaucrat of any kind then bush rules would prevail.

[zoso]

1 hour ago, PISTON LAKE CRUISER said:

As long as the truck is a 1500. Once you go to a 3/4 ton the combined GVWR will often be over 4500 kg. and so then would require stickers. The half ton with a 2 bed Triton is a safe bet as long as neither the truck or the trailer don't already have a yellow sticker.

9832 is the gvwr on an f250 scab 4x4. truck weighs 6200lbs empty, add gear and passengers at 600lbs you can tow a trailer weighing 3000lbs loaded without the sticker.

[grover_yyz]

53 minutes ago, catinental couch said:

Well Grover. Half tons are not exempt. No stickers = MTO argument. 

Both units stickered = less MTO argument. 

Bottom line = If you get a crappy MTO officer or cop, there will be an argument either way. Find someone you can trust and get the yearly inspections done and stickers installed. This problem is not going away and will probably get worse. 

Your experiences WILL vary

 I agree, it will get worse with more travelling to the snow. I recently found out our local Midas Muffler in Ajax does the inspections for both trucks and trailers. My issue in the past was finding a local place to certify the trailer. 

 

Jerry

[catinental couch]

Yes Jerry. But can you trust them? If so, go for it. I know of other franchise operations that I would never set foot in their door. That does not mean that they are all like that.

[grover_yyz]

2 minutes ago, catinental couch said:

Yes Jerry. But can you trust them? If so, go for it. I know of other franchise operations that I would never set foot in their door. That does not mean that they are all like that.

"Trust them" Are you saying some places are shady and do not do a proper inspection? I have to trust a repair shop to do their job so i can get my sticker. If MTO finds a serious problem, would the certifier/mechanic not be liable? 

[revrnd]

14 minutes ago, grover_yyz said:

"Trust them" Are you saying some places are shady and do not do a proper inspection? I have to trust a repair shop to do their job so i can get my sticker. If MTO finds a serious problem, would the certifier/mechanic not be liable? 

 

This:

 

https://www.mykawartha.com/news-story/7353912-lakefield-man-pleads-guilty-to-dangerous-driving-causing-death/

 

https://www.autoserviceworld.com/jury-finds-tech-guilty-issuing-fraudulent-safety-certificate/

 

I know of friends that are techs & tell of people wanting them to look the other way on defects. This is a family forum or else I'd quote their replies.