Caution / Warning - North Bay truck & trailer Blitz

[02Sled]

13 minutes ago, Viperules700 said:

Only other way around it is to remove the plate and put up a slow vehicle moving sign. I do this when I rent dual axle trailers that I go to dump with. No weight restrictions this way, but not suppose to go on major highways though. Any trailers that I just tow temporally that are dual axle, I do this with. 

Hmmm.... can a marina qualify for a dealer plate as a seller of boat trailers and put a dealer plate on the trailer for the trip?

[Viperules700]

12 minutes ago, 02Sled said:

Hmmm.... can a marina qualify for a dealer plate as a seller of boat trailers and put a dealer plate on the trailer for the trip?

Aren't boat trailers exempt since they are recreational though. That is my understanding, can't be used to haul anything but a boat. 

[02Sled]

23 minutes ago, Viperules700 said:

Aren't boat trailers exempt since they are recreational though. That is my understanding, can't be used to haul anything but a boat. 

Boat / sled and ATV trailers are not exempt and are not classified as recreational. Recreational trailers are camper trailers including tent trailers.

[Viperules700]

19 minutes ago, 02Sled said:

Boat / sled and ATV trailers are not exempt and are not classified as recreational. Recreational trailers are camper trailers including tent trailers.

Ok I see. Thanks for clarification. if motorhome pulls the dual axle yacht it is exempt right? 

[02Sled]

18 minutes ago, Viperules700 said:

Ok I see. Thanks for clarification. if motorhome pulls the dual axle yacht it is exempt right? 

What is the GVWR on the tandem axle yacht. I don't believe so. The motorhome is over 4500kg and by itself would be exempt as an RV. The trailer if over 4500kg would require an inspection. So for a trailer over 4500kg that would require an inspection anything that tows it requires an inspection, including a motor home. If the trailer was under 4500kg it wouldn't however;

 

A pickup that is exempt from an inspection alone and a trailer that is exempt from an inspection alone as individual vehicles, but when combined exceed 4500kg, now both the pickup and trailer now need an inspection to be on the road together.

 

I would suspect that the interpretation of the combined weight of the motorhome and the trailer exceeding 4500kg I believe you will find that they are no longer exempt and both now require an inspection.

 

Something like our horse trailer with two 3500 lb. axles (3175kg) would be exempt by itself but anything big enough to pull it would put it well over the 4500kg. The combined weight would require both the F150 and the horse trailer to be inspected if that F150 is what is used to pull it. The F150 and enclosed two sled trailer as a rig are under the 4500kg and therefore exempt (unless the F150 was used to tow the horse trailer and now inspected). Because it has an inspection sticker now the sled trailer needs an inspection as well.

 

Nice and easy isn't it.

 

[Viperules700]

38 minutes ago, 02Sled said:

What is the GVWR on the tandem axle yacht. I don't believe so. The motorhome is over 4500kg and by itself would be exempt as an RV. The trailer if over 4500kg would require an inspection. So for a trailer over 4500kg that would require an inspection anything that tows it requires an inspection, including a motor home. If the trailer was under 4500kg it wouldn't however;

 

A pickup that is exempt from an inspection alone and a trailer that is exempt from an inspection alone as individual vehicles, but when combined exceed 4500kg, now both the pickup and trailer now need an inspection to be on the road together.

 

I would suspect that the interpretation of the combined weight of the motorhome and the trailer exceeding 4500kg I believe you will find that they are no longer exempt and both now require an inspection.

 

Something like our horse trailer with two 3500 lb. axles (3175kg) would be exempt by itself but anything big enough to pull it would put it well over the 4500kg. The combined weight would require both the F150 and the horse trailer to be inspected if that F150 is what is used to pull it. The F150 and enclosed two sled trailer as a rig are under the 4500kg and therefore exempt (unless the F150 was used to tow the horse trailer and now inspected). Because it has an inspection sticker now the sled trailer needs an inspection as well.

 

Nice and easy isn't it.

 

That sums it up. No wonder no one does it and rolls the dice. Easy if you have one trailer, but several what a pain. 

Is this why you see a motor home's now pulling a smart car or mini to get around stickering. 

[PISTON LAKE CRUISER]

6 hours ago, 02Sled said:

I have seen on rare occasion a pickup towing a 5th wheel RV with a boat hitched to the back of the RV. Forget about backing up.  Imagine going down the wrong road and coming to a dead end.

Truck driver's pulling "A" trains or "B" trains often have to back them up. No different than what you are talking about except that the rear trailer may or may not be visible in the mirrors. The "A" train actually has a swivel at the pintle hook on the rear of the first trailer and a dolly converter (AKA Joe Dog) with a fifth wheel on it hooked to the first trailer. The rear trailer hooks to the dolly converter . That setup has 3 swivel points. 

A fellow I know has a Ram diesel with a 35' 5th wheel trailer and a 17' boat. He hauls that combo when he and his family go on holidays. He says he checks things out before you go into a parking lot or other similar spot.

 

[PISTON LAKE CRUISER]

3 hours ago, 02Sled said:

Hmmm.... can a marina qualify for a dealer plate as a seller of boat trailers and put a dealer plate on the trailer for the trip?

I believe a dealer plate cannot be used to haul a load in Ontario. A few years ago if I wanted to demonstrate a dump truck it was legal to put a load on it and drive it on the highway with a dealer plate as long as you took the load back to where you got it. You couldn't deliver the load with a dealer plate. That scenario is no longer legal.

[northstar]

Not sure if this has already been asked or not , if you truck is inspected and has the yellow tag do you need to fill out a log book ? Also when pulling a trailer with a yellow tag do you enter the inspection station when the lights are flashing ?

[Poo Man]

No to both of those as you are not commercial. No need for cvor either 

[tireless]

but yes to daily inspection if a dually ,even if personal use only because of weight class

[Dave K]

13 hours ago, 02Sled said:

What you can't drive with a G license in Ontario

 

Tow a vehicle over 4,600 kilograms: Class D licenses are also required for drivers who want to tow a vehicle over 4,600 kilograms, regardless of whether they are towing with a car, van or truck.

 

That should read class A licence, not D.  D is for a straight truck only.  A is for trailers 

[02Sled]

9 hours ago, Poo Man said:

No to both of those as you are not commercial. No need for cvor either 

Most pickups I see on the road have the black and white commercial plates. If the pickup has a giver of 3000 kg  or more the plates are no longer $120 and the fee is based on the giver. Would that not qualify for the inspection stations if the tow vehicle and trailer have inspection stickers?

[PISTON LAKE CRUISER]

2 hours ago, 02Sled said:

Most pickups I see on the road have the black and white commercial plates. If the pickup has a giver of 3000 kg  or more the plates are no longer $120 and the fee is based on the giver. Would that not qualify for the inspection stations if the tow vehicle and trailer have inspection stickers?

Not sure what a giver is but it does conjure up some images LOL.

I believe there is some wording regarding "not being used for commercial purposes" that allows yellow stickered units with sled trailers or boat trailers to drive past scales. If all the sled trailers going past the scales at North Bay this year had to cross the plate, the MTO boys STRIKE THAT  MTO PEOPLE (I'm catching on Gustin)  would be protesting for more pay or extra staff.

Except for possibly personalized plates, don't all pickups get registered with black & white plates and with or without a personal use sticker?

[02Sled]

2 hours ago, PISTON LAKE CRUISER said:

Not sure what a giver is but it does conjure up some images LOL.

I believe there is some wording regarding "not being used for commercial purposes" that allows yellow stickered units with sled trailers or boat trailers to drive past scales. If all the sled trailers going past the scales at North Bay this year had to cross the plate, the MTO boys STRIKE THAT  MTO PEOPLE (I'm catching on Gustin)  would be protesting for more pay or extra staff.

Except for possibly personalized plates, don't all pickups get registered with black & white plates and with or without a personal use sticker?

Damned auto correct... giver was gvwr.

 

http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/trucks/commercial-vehicle-faq.shtml

 

The Highway Traffic Act considers all pickup trucks to be commercial motor vehicles, but a pickup truck only needs a Commercial Vehicle Operator's Registration (CVOR) certificate if it has an actual or registered gross weight of more than 4,500 kg.

A personal-use pickup truck means a pickup truck that:

• is being used for personal purposes without compensation
• has a manufacturer's gross vehicle weight rating of 6,000 kg (13,227 lb) or less, and is fitted with either:
  • the original box that was installed by the manufacturer, which has not been modified, or
  • a replacement box that duplicates the one that was installed by the manufacturer and has not been modified
• is not carrying or towing a trailer carrying commercial cargo or tools or equipment of a type normally used for commercial purposes

So typically light duty pickups i.e. F150 Ram 1500 have a gvwr under 4500kg  they don't need a CVOR and can be defined as personal use since the trailers they tow are not containing commercial cargo / tools / equipment.

 

However... that brings up the earlier question about the marina, towing a large number of trailers. That is for commercial purposes and changes the situation for them. They no longer qualify for personal use.

 

I have been looking for something I read on one of the mto websites where it seemed to suggest that a pickup which has an inspection sticker no longer falls under personal use exemptions. I haven't found it yet but will keep looking.

[Proxrider]

My bad if this has already been answered.  So an F150 with a tandem 14' enclosed trailer used for sleds and ATV's only does require truck and trailer to have stickers.  Fine, I don't agree but I can deal with that.  The part that is hard to take is that other utility trailers now require stickers because of the truck sticker.  Does this also include my 17' camper trailer?  Does this recreational trailer require a sticker as well because of truck sticker?

[PISTON LAKE CRUISER]

2 hours ago, Proxrider said:

My bad if this has already been answered.  So an F150 with a tandem 14' enclosed trailer used for sleds and ATV's only does require truck and trailer to have stickers.  Fine, I don't agree but I can deal with that.  The part that is hard to take is that other utility trailers now require stickers because of the truck sticker.  Does this also include my 17' camper trailer?  Does this recreational trailer require a sticker as well because of truck sticker?

Good question. This thing gets more complicated the further we get into it. I am going to GUESS that because RV's are exempt it wouldn't need the sticker even when the truck has a sticker.  Somebody can try and figure that one out in the E Laws because I get dizzy trying to understand them.

[02Sled]

1 hour ago, PISTON LAKE CRUISER said:

Good question. This thing gets more complicated the further we get into it. I am going to GUESS that because RV's are exempt it wouldn't need the sticker even when the truck has a sticker.  Somebody can try and figure that one out in the E Laws because I get dizzy trying to understand them.

I'm going to guess you're right. You see the RV dealers that have 1 ton dual wheel pickups which would be inspected on their own running across the border to pick up RV's and bring them back as well as deliver them to customers. Those RV trailers don't have inspections. But like anything the government is involved in seldom is there anything that is simple.

[Poo Man]

4 hours ago, Proxrider said:

My bad if this has already been answered.  So an F150 with a tandem 14' enclosed trailer used for sleds and ATV's only does require truck and trailer to have stickers.  Fine, I don't agree but I can deal with that.  The part that is hard to take is that other utility trailers now require stickers because of the truck sticker.  Does this also include my 17' camper trailer?  Does this recreational trailer require a sticker as well because of truck sticker?

I believe your exempt with the rv. Before I got a sticker for the enclosed and truck I would load it up and hit the scales sinces it's a half ton. You might be ok depending on trailer construction. The other crazy thing is anyone could get themselves a Tahoe or suburban and tow no problem aslong as you keep the seats in it!

[revrnd]

When were the 'personal use' stickers introduced & what are the requirements? Some LD trucks you see have them while others don't, even when you know the truck isn't commercial. You almost think it's @ the whim of the person @ the Service Ontario counter.

 

The reason I ask is that I had 2 different black & white plates on 1/2 tons from '81 to '99. When I ordered my 1st 3/4 ton in '99, I ordered a personalized plate for the truck.

[Big Pussy]

My BIL bought a new 79 Sierra Heavy Half and he had a personal use sticker.  That truck didn't carry anything other than some building materials from Beaver Lumber.

 

My 06 Dakota has one.  The Dodge dealer asked me if I wanted it licensed that way when they registered it.

 

BP

[soupkids]

Way to many if's, and, or but's in the last 7 pages for me to even wrap my head around.

I'm just going to connect whatever I need behind my truck and drive on.

[muddy tires]

8 hours ago, Proxrider said:

My bad if this has already been answered.  So an F150 with a tandem 14' enclosed trailer used for sleds and ATV's only does require truck and trailer to have stickers.  Fine, I don't agree but I can deal with that.  The part that is hard to take is that other utility trailers now require stickers because of the truck sticker.  Does this also include my 17' camper trailer?  Does this recreational trailer require a sticker as well because of truck sticker?

Confusing!  Can somebody please show me where in the rules it says that having half of your truck/trailer combination stickered requires the other half to also be stickered (ie a small utility trailer has to be stickered to be towed by a stickered truck)?  For example, my truck (Silverado Duramax 2500)  is GVWR 4,173 kg and my dual axle enclosed trailer is 3,171 kg.  Total 7,344 kg > 4,500 kg therefore both require stickers.  However I use a small utility trailer that is GVWR 325 kg (homemade and it was registered low by the person who built it, probably to avoid inspection) so that total is 4,173 plus 325 equals 4,498 < 4,500 kg.  Since under the weight threshold, there is no sticker requirement based on weight.  Unless somebody can show me somewhere else in the law, there is no basis for requiring an inspection of this small trailer to be towed by my truck, whether or not the truck is stickered.  And don't tell me that your neighbour's friend's, cousin's, dog's brother in law told you or that you read on the internet about somebody who heard that his friend got a ticket because that won't hold any weight with a judge so doesn't hold any weight with me either.

 

A recreational vehicle (camper trailer) never requires stickers.  Although I have mine inspected regularly (but not the full sticker safety routine) for my own peace of mind.

[PISTON LAKE CRUISER]

23 minutes ago, muddy tires said:

Confusing!  Can somebody please show me where in the rules it says that having half of your truck/trailer combination stickered requires the other half to also be stickered (ie a small utility trailer has to be stickered to be towed by a stickered truck)?  For example, my truck (Silverado Duramax 2500)  is GVWR 4,173 kg and my dual axle enclosed trailer is 3,171 kg.  Total 7,344 kg > 4,500 kg therefore both require stickers.  However I use a small utility trailer that is GVWR 325 kg (homemade and it was registered low by the person who built it, probably to avoid inspection) so that total is 4,173 plus 325 equals 4,498 < 4,500 kg.  Since under the weight threshold, there is no sticker requirement based on weight.  Unless somebody can show me somewhere else in the law, there is no basis for requiring an inspection of this small trailer to be towed by my truck, whether or not the truck is stickered.  And don't tell me that your neighbour's friend's, cousin's, dog's brother in law told you or that you read on the internet about somebody who heard that his friend got a ticket because that won't hold any weight with a judge so doesn't hold any weight with me either.

 

A recreational vehicle (camper trailer) never requires stickers.  Although I have mine inspected regularly (but not the full sticker safety routine) for my own peace of mind.

Have you tried to find the regulation in question?

[muddy tires]

4 minutes ago, PISTON LAKE CRUISER said:

Have you tried to find the regulation in question?

Yes I have.  Looked through the elaws site and also through some MTO materials and the MTO website (not very helpful).  Very similar threads have appeared on several forums I frequent.  Always lots of people confused and lots of falsehoods and rumours but few statements that can be backed up by reference to a law, rule or regulation. 

 

What have I found to be supportable?  4,500 kg threshold (greater of GVWR, registered weight or actual weight), exemption for campers, no requirement for log books or to cross scales when for personal use.  Most everything else seems to be fake news.