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Caution / Warning - North Bay truck & trailer Blitz


Boy Oh Buoy

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19 minutes ago, PISTON LAKE CRUISER said:

Actually BP says in his last line that he has mirror extensions that let him see down the side of the trailer on both sides so he has that covered.

What is the measurement or scale for braking capacity and is it a written regulation? I have never seen or heard of anything to do with that in MTO regulations when it comes to light trucks towing trailers with no brakes. 

The need for trailer brakes is based upon the weight of the trailer. In Ontario every trailer or semi-trailer having a gross weight of 1,360 kilograms (3,000 Ibs) or more shall be equipped with brakes adequate to stop and to hold the vehicle.


 

 

 

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12 minutes ago, 02Sled said:

looks like you've got everything covered. Under 4,500 kg. Everything properly secured and sight lines on the mirrors. Crossed chains etc. I used to wonder about why the crossed chains. I had one MTO guy tell me when checking the horse trailer years ago that the concept is if the trailer comes off the ball, the crossed chains will create a cradle to stop the tongue from hitting the road. Some chains I've seen have been so long that even crossed you see the occasional spark as the scrape the road.

My father got his first sled trailer in '70. I remember him crossing the chains back then so it's not a new development.

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43 minutes ago, PISTON LAKE CRUISER said:

Actually BP says in his last line that he has mirror extensions that let him see down the side of the trailer on both sides so he has that covered.

What is the measurement or scale for braking capacity and is it a written regulation? I have never seen or heard of anything to do with that in MTO regulations when it comes to light trucks towing trailers with no brakes. 

My apologies to BP. I missed that line. The brake size argument comes from the gross vehicle weight sticker in the door. Some officers feel that if the truck rating is 3000 kg then that is all the brakes will stop as well. No brakes on the trailer could result in an argument. 

Your results WILL vary.

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47 minutes ago, 02Sled said:

I haven't gotten anything inspected in a few years. The horse trailer hasn't been used since my wife stopped competing. It used to be that from time to time you would see the MTO set up on the road checking trailers arriving and leaving some of the horse shows. I used to have stickers on the truck and the 3 trailers since she used to spend a lot of time on the road with the horse trailer. If the truck has an inspection sticker everything it tows requires an inspection even if you are under 4,500 kg. combined.

 

The truck we just picked up Feb 1 has a GVWR of 3,561 kg but with the heavy duty payload package adds another 1,188 kg to that for a total of 4,749 kg. The King Ranch includes the payload package.  You can however register it when you get your plates for less weight. A commercial vehicle for personal use less than 3,000 kg. the license plate is only $120.00. Go above that and you pay more. I had the dealer register it so plates don't cost more than the $120.

 

https://www.ontario.ca/page/register-vehicle-permit-licence-plate-and-sticker#section-2

 

Capture1.JPG.b138343a6200a9720897b919b7de5d83.JPG

 

I don't recall how much we were paying for the inspections. It was a pain in the butt. The place which did the truck would do the sled trailer but not the boat trailer or the horse trailer. They didn't want to do them since the aluminum horse trailer has electric brakes and the boat trailer has hydraulic surge brakes. I did a bunch of back and forth getting them done one at a time.

 

I suspect that there are a lot of people running the roads in Ontario with F150, Ram 1500 etc. towing trailers not realizing they are taking their chances. With a GVWR of 2,999 kg on the light duty pickup that only leaves 1500 kg available for the GVWR of the trailer. My enclosed sled trailer has a dry weight of 450 kg and a GVWR of 1,360 kg. My combined GVWR truck and sled trailer is 4,359 kg. just under the 4,500 kg. requiring inspection.

 

Get a tandem axle sled trailer you're going to be over the 4,500 kg for sure.

Ok thanks for the info. Yea I have black plates on the truck but it's "personal use" defined.  The big reason we haven't stickered anything is due to what we anticipate to be a lot of added cost and PITA regarding inspections. We figure $150-$200 per trailer and truck so that's an additional $600/year. Am I even close to reality on those costs? That's alot of sled fuel or truck pull fuel right there.

 

Whenever we pull to a big sled destination in North Ontario we also scout the rigs in the parking lot for stickers. I'd say less than 20% have upto date stickers on both power unit and trailer. Same goes for most hunt events the wife pulls to. Seems barely anyone in the horse business gets stickers.

 

The wife is getting ready to take her Merhow trailer in for it's first once over since she got it new 2 years ago. Now I'm thinking that we bite the bullet and go thru this damn sticker business. Pisses me right off though, it's a damn money grab.  

 

Hey if your horse trailer is idle sell that puppy! It's a gold mine. Damn horse trailers are like real estate, just keep getting more and more expensive. 

20170827_085544.jpg

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4 minutes ago, mcZEd382 said:

Ok thanks for the info. Yea I have black plates on the truck but it's "personal use" defined.  The big reason we haven't stickered anything is due to what we anticipate to be a lot of added cost and PITA regarding inspections. We figure $150-$200 per trailer and truck so that's an additional $600/year. Am I even close to reality on those costs? That's alot of sled fuel or truck pull fuel right there.

 

Whenever we pull to a big sled destination in North Ontario we also scout the rigs in the parking lot for stickers. I'd say less than 20% have upto date stickers on both power unit and trailer. Same goes for most hunt events the wife pulls to. Seems barely anyone in the horse business gets stickers.

 

The wife is getting ready to take her Merhow trailer in for it's first once over since she got it new 2 years ago. Now I'm thinking that we bite the bullet and go thru this damn sticker business. Pisses me right off though, it's a damn money grab.  

 

Hey if your horse trailer is idle sell that puppy! It's a gold mine. Damn horse trailers are like real estate, just keep getting more and more expensive. 

20170827_085544.jpg

I seem to recall I was around $100 to $125 per trailer the last time we did them which would have been about 5 years ago. I think he gave me a break on the price since I had him do 3 trailers.

 

My wife used to compete in the Quarter Horse shows around Ontario and I agree there are lots of people that take their chances. That is likely why the MTO targeted the horse shows, setting up just down the road from the show grounds.

 

She has a two horse step up Jamco bumper pull with tack compartment under the manger. She rode western. The Jamco trailers have a unique wall construction method. They are essentially thick tongue and groove aluminum wall boards that interlock.

 

After she quit competing we held onto the trailer because she always had good intentions to trailer her horse to places like the Bruce Trail to go for a ride. We did trailer to Wasaga Beach a couple of times for her to ride the beach front in the fall.

 

Since her horse is no longer with us we will be selling the trailer, saddles etc. but I'm not going to push her on that. She can sell what she wants when she is ready. She likely has $5,000 in saddles and other show equipment. The western discipline is big into silver on the saddles, bridles, halters etc.

 

Nice rig for heading to the horse shows.... wish your wife well.

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49 minutes ago, catinental couch said:

My apologies to BP. I missed that line. The brake size argument comes from the gross vehicle weight sticker in the door. Some officers feel that if the truck rating is 3000 kg then that is all the brakes will stop as well. No brakes on the trailer could result in an argument. 

Your results WILL vary.

There seems to be a real disconnect between manufactures design specs and the MTO.  My truck was advertised to pull up to 6000 lbs .  I guess that requires trailer brakes on every size of trailer including a utility trailer to take junk to the dump.  Those brakes would be seized up every year.

 

Ray Charles could see that the D rings in my trailer would never do the job screwed down with two #10 wood screws.  I added four more and used bolts and 1/4" sandwich plates under the floor.  As well added a very large through floor pull ring at the front of each sled.  This was designed to use a come along to recover blown sleds if there are not enough people to push the sled in the trailer.  Also tough finding good tires.  I won't use the Carlisle junk.  I got some 10 PR Kenda tires from Ohio and hot dip galvanized the rims.

 

I think that real world testing would find that the fancy locking slide brackets would deform the rail and pull the lock out as well.

 

It seems the Lester Boys heavily endorse the use of Super Clamps only, front and rear when holding two large sleds on a deck on top of a truck box.  I wonder if they have been stopped by the MTO ?

 

BP

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If the Lester boys ever got stopped and charged, they would jerk the story around to make for good press. 

The Feds have jurisdiction over vehicle manufacturing and the MTO made up their own rules as they went along. As of July 2016 the MTO was changing over to Federal rule and they said at the meeting for us inspection stations to cover our a$$e$ because they won't stand behind us. Apparently the memo on the Federal rule was not read by Ontario officers.

BP, your truck being advertised to pull 6000 lbs was not advertised to stop said weight without additional trailer brakes.

 The going rate for yellow sticker inspections is  1.5 hours on light trucks with drum rear brakes up to 2.5 hours on 2500-3500 series trucks with floater rear hubs and /or rear disc brakes with rotor hat parking brake systems. I know there are some places charging 6 hours to inspect 1 tons.  For trailers, 3/4 of an hour to one hour should do any single axle trailer and tandems with 4 wheel brakes can be 2.5 hours. These prices are calculated with whatever inspection door rate the station

sets. There are at least 2 additional taxes/fees added to the price.

 If you find an inspection station

that charges 1.5 hours or more for a single axle trailer, walk away.

 I agree on the Carlisle tires but most people want cheap, cheap, cheap so the tire dealers won't stock good trailer tires.

mcZEd382, I realize the price is not without consideration but think of it this way. $600.00 to inspect 3 trailers or get caught 3 times for no stickers and suffer a possible set of fines worth $3,000.00. As far as it being a money grab, yes the government is getting money from it but the responsibilities are laid on the inspection station hence an increase in insurance premiums. I swear the government and the insurance companies are in bed with each other.

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2 hours ago, catinental couch said:

If the Lester boys ever got stopped and charged, they would jerk the story around to make for good press. 

The Feds have jurisdiction over vehicle manufacturing and the MTO made up their own rules as they went along. As of July 2016 the MTO was changing over to Federal rule and they said at the meeting for us inspection stations to cover our a$$e$ because they won't stand behind us. Apparently the memo on the Federal rule was not read by Ontario officers.

BP, your truck being advertised to pull 6000 lbs was not advertised to stop said weight without additional trailer brakes.

 The going rate for yellow sticker inspections is  1.5 hours on light trucks with drum rear brakes up to 2.5 hours on 2500-3500 series trucks with floater rear hubs and /or rear disc brakes with rotor hat parking brake systems. I know there are some places charging 6 hours to inspect 1 tons.  For trailers, 3/4 of an hour to one hour should do any single axle trailer and tandems with 4 wheel brakes can be 2.5 hours. These prices are calculated with whatever inspection door rate the station

sets. There are at least 2 additional taxes/fees added to the price.

 If you find an inspection station

that charges 1.5 hours or more for a single axle trailer, walk away.

 I agree on the Carlisle tires but most people want cheap, cheap, cheap so the tire dealers won't stock good trailer tires.

mcZEd382, I realize the price is not without consideration but think of it this way. $600.00 to inspect 3 trailers or get caught 3 times for no stickers and suffer a possible set of fines worth $3,000.00. As far as it being a money grab, yes the government is getting money from it but the responsibilities are laid on the inspection station hence an increase in insurance premiums. I swear the government and the insurance companies are in bed with each other.

Good, solid info. Thanks. Good to get some guess-timates on the fines because then we can weigh the pro's and con's within some context. 

So next step is to gather all the GVWR ratings for Ram, Neo trailer and Merhow horse trailer. But based on info here and what I already know we should be stickered. 

Then visit local garage and trailer places to get a baseline for pricing. 

Reading this post out to da wife and the $3000 fine caught here attention and she's starting to get on board with stickers. 

 

Do you suppose the fine would be less for having an out dated sticker as compared to no sticker at all?

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Last year I was told by a buddy that the "J" and "S" style hooks on the ratchet straps were even gonna be a no go soon. He was told only hooks that have a spring loaded closing tab on them would be allowed. 'Tis true or rumour? 

 

MTO prefers these?

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10 minutes ago, mcZEd382 said:

Good, solid info. Thanks. Good to get some guess-timates on the fines because then we can weigh the pro's and con's within some context. 

So next step is to gather all the GVWR ratings for Ram, Neo trailer and Merhow horse trailer. But based on info here and what I already know we should be stickered. 

Then visit local garage and trailer places to get a baseline for pricing. 

Reading this post out to da wife and the $3000 fine caught here attention and she's starting to get on board with stickers. 

 

Do you suppose the fine would be less for having an out dated sticker as compared to no sticker at all?

The Ram 1500 and horse trailer combination will need a sticker for both without any doubt. Once the Ram is inspected and the yellow sticker applied whatever it tows needs to be inspected. One if your sled trailer is able to squeeze in under the mark one person I know used to cheat the system for his boat trailer. The yellow sticker for his truck was applied to a piece of clear vinyl. When he towed his horse trailer he stuck the yellow sticker to the window of the truck (clear packing tape I think). When he wasn't towing the horse trailer he took it off the window.

 

I suspect if you have a recently expired inspection sticker you may get an MTO guy in a good mood who may let you go.

 

It seems that there isn't a set fine for the inspection stickers.

 

http://www.ontariocourts.ca/ocj/how-do-i/set-fines/set-fines-i/schedule-43/

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10 minutes ago, mcZEd382 said:

Last year I was told by a buddy that the "J" and "S" style hooks on the ratchet straps were even gonna be a no go soon. He was told only hooks that have a spring loaded closing tab on them would be allowed. 'Tis true or rumour? 

 

MTO prefers these?

I haven't heard of this being a required change. Our boat trailer has the S style hooks but rubber straps on each hook. It also has cables instead of chains.

Capture1.JPG.611421dcd9194a2e3a3a6ecb07b06c68.JPG

 

The sled and horse trailer have this style

 

Capture1.JPG.70b662455352f097056f0ec8537b706c.JPG

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3 hours ago, mcZEd382 said:

Good, solid info. Thanks. Good to get some guess-timates on the fines because then we can weigh the pro's and con's within some context. 

So next step is to gather all the GVWR ratings for Ram, Neo trailer and Merhow horse trailer. But based on info here and what I already know we should be stickered. 

Then visit local garage and trailer places to get a baseline for pricing. 

Reading this post out to da wife and the $3000 fine caught here attention and she's starting to get on board with stickers. 

 

Do you suppose the fine would be less for having an out dated sticker as compared to no sticker at all?

Having an outdated sticker means you knew you needed a sticker. 

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1 hour ago, PISTON LAKE CRUISER said:

Having an outdated sticker means you knew you needed a sticker. 

Agreed PLC. That is a blatant admission of guilt unless you plead stupidity that you forgot and they believe you.

 The safety hooks are not mandated as of yet but they have been on the debate table for years now just as some other gray area components that have just been decided as of July 2016.

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mcZEd382, did the trailer dealer put a yellow sticker on your wife's trailer when it was new? If not then a phone call and report to the MTO will lead to the dealer being charged and fined. We went through this a few years ago when the dealer said they didn't have to install the yellow sticker on a new unit. The MTO was in the dealership office the next day ready to give the paperwork for the fine.

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13 hours ago, catinental couch said:

mcZEd382, did the trailer dealer put a yellow sticker on your wife's trailer when it was new? If not then a phone call and report to the MTO will lead to the dealer being charged and fined. We went through this a few years ago when the dealer said they didn't have to install the yellow sticker on a new unit. The MTO was in the dealership office the next day ready to give the paperwork for the fine.

They offered. At the time we were bombarded with opinions, everything from tandem, to electric brakes to if the trailer was built on a day with a blood moon, then it needed a sticker. The whole 4500kg GVWR thing didn't seem to be such common knowledge as it is today. So we declined. The blame for this mess, imo falls at the feet of the MTO and whatever PR company they have under contract. Why can this gov't put out marketing campaigns  for pretty much every petty little project the launch but important facts like this lie buried on websites? Would not take much, just a poster to be displayed at dealerships and ONRoute stops would be a big help.  

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4 minutes ago, mcZEd382 said:

They offered. At the time we were bombarded with opinions, everything from tandem, to electric brakes to if the trailer was built on a day with a blood moon, then it needed a sticker. The whole 4500kg GVWR thing didn't seem to be such common knowledge as it is today. So we declined. The blame for this mess, imo falls at the feet of the MTO and whatever PR company they have under contract. Why can this gov't put out marketing campaigns  for pretty much every petty little project the launch but important facts like this lie buried on websites? Would not take much, just a poster to be displayed at dealerships and ONRoute stops would be a big help.  

When it comes to commercial vehicles they don't really advertise changes in laws much at all except for major stuff like speed limiters and electronic log books. The MTO and police seem to take the view that it is up to you as the owner of the vehicle or the driver to stay up to date on new law changes. That's hard to do when they don't advertise coming changes and then after they become law, they put them on the E laws site which seems to have been designed by the same company that did the new ITG.

 

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18 hours ago, 02Sled said:

The Ram 1500 and horse trailer combination will need a sticker for both without any doubt. Once the Ram is inspected and the yellow sticker applied whatever it tows needs to be inspected. One if your sled trailer is able to squeeze in under the mark one person I know used to cheat the system for his boat trailer. The yellow sticker for his truck was applied to a piece of clear vinyl. When he towed his horse trailer he stuck the yellow sticker to the window of the truck (clear packing tape I think). When he wasn't towing the horse trailer he took it off the window.

 

I suspect if you have a recently expired inspection sticker you may get an MTO guy in a good mood who may let you go.

 

It seems that there isn't a set fine for the inspection stickers.

 

http://www.ontariocourts.ca/ocj/how-do-i/set-fines/set-fines-i/schedule-43/

Yup that's what we figured. Hence the decline on the offer of sticker when we picked up the new Merhow.  At the time we really didn't understand costs or the legalities. We did know that once the power unit is stickered stuff behind it needs one too.

Along with costs there's a concern of jumping into the bureaurcratic whirlpool and having to follow up on this stuff every year moving forward.  Plus what if the brakes are found to be crap on either trailer when it is in for inspect? Does the inspecting garage HAVE to do the repair work? Or can I DIY the repair and bring it back? 2 years ago the NEO needed all 4 brake systems replaced. 

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16 minutes ago, mcZEd382 said:

Yup that's what we figured. Hence the decline on the offer of sticker when we picked up the new Merhow.  At the time we really didn't understand costs or the legalities. We did know that once the power unit is stickered stuff behind it needs one too.

Along with costs there's a concern of jumping into the bureaurcratic whirlpool and having to follow up on this stuff every year moving forward.  Plus what if the brakes are found to be crap on either trailer when it is in for inspect? Does the inspecting garage HAVE to do the repair work? Or can I DIY the repair and bring it back? 2 years ago the NEO needed all 4 brake systems replaced. 

Some shops may let you get the actual repair work done elsewhere but if the repair being done elsewhere is a hidden thing like brake wheel end components, legally the shop issuing the permit would have to remove the wheels and drums a second time to reinspect that the work done elsewhere was done correctly. This is necessary because it is the inspecting mechanics' license and the sticker issuing shops' inspection license on the line as well as liability if something goes wrong later. When it's all said and done you are better to find a shop that you trust as fair and reputable and let them do everything needed. IMHO.

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16 hours ago, PISTON LAKE CRUISER said:

Having an outdated sticker means you knew you needed a sticker. 

 

14 hours ago, catinental couch said:

Agreed PLC. That is a blatant admission of guilt unless you plead stupidity that you forgot and they believe you.

 The safety hooks are not mandated as of yet but they have been on the debate table for years now just as some other gray area components that have just been decided as of July 2016.

There is an azzhat in the area has a Dodge crew cab dually. He was pissed off a couple of years ago that the MTO had caught up to him after 3 years & he needed inspecting. 

 

I have no idea whats up w/ the 3500 as the TT he tows isnt huge. Maybe it's for his furnace oil business? He buys diesel @ Curve Lake (always 2 45 gal drums & a hose reel in the back) & sells it as furnace oil.

 

You can imagine how he felt when the garage failed the tires. I told the guys @ the garage, "That's too bad..."

 

Karma sucks is my motto.

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2 minutes ago, revrnd said:

He buys diesel @ Curve Lake (always 2 45 gal drums & a hose reel in the back) & sells it as furnace oil.

I've never had  anything to do with purchasing heating oil. Is it cheaper to buy retail pump diesel fuel (dyed I would imagine) than home heating oil?

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6 minutes ago, PISTON LAKE CRUISER said:

I've never had  anything to do with purchasing heating oil. Is it cheaper to buy retail pump diesel fuel (dyed I would imagine) than home heating oil?

No idea, but probably a scam Ralph Kramden would be proud of.

 

I do recall when my oil company ran me out of oil. The service guy asked me if there were any gas stations nearby that sold diesel. He came back w/ 10 gallons.

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1 hour ago, mcZEd382 said:

They offered. At the time we were bombarded with opinions, everything from tandem, to electric brakes to if the trailer was built on a day with a blood moon, then it needed a sticker. The whole 4500kg GVWR thing didn't seem to be such common knowledge as it is today. So we declined. The blame for this mess, imo falls at the feet of the MTO and whatever PR company they have under contract. Why can this gov't put out marketing campaigns  for pretty much every petty little project the launch but important facts like this lie buried on websites? Would not take much, just a poster to be displayed at dealerships and ONRoute stops would be a big help.  

The permutations and combinations of what does require and not require a permit are convoluted as you have seen here. The regulations have been in place for a VERY long time. There used to be a week long Quarter Horse show held each spring in the CNE Coliseum. (Quarterama). The year all this mess came into effect they did a lot of "promotion" to inform the public. I would have been in my early/mid 20's at the time. Each day of the show they had an MTO representative providing a seminar on the "new" regulations. Needless to say the questions were endless. Things like we have seen in this discussion.

 

If I tow my fishing boat with my truck I don't need an inspection but if I tow my horse trailer with my truck the truck and horse trailer need an inspection? Yes. If my truck needed an inspection to tow the horse trailer and now when I tow my boat the boat trailer needs an inspection as well even though it normally wouldn't since the truck now has one? Yes.

 

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It all boils down to what type of person you are. If you want to be 100% legal and never worry, or if your ok knowing that your towing a few times a year and chances are high you won't be bothered. Personally I think they need to get rid of the rule where every trailer needs a sticker even if under 4500kg combined. Even better include sled/atv/boat in the recreation exemption.

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A friend who has towed a lot over the years said @ the time, the crackdown came as a result of the 'landscaping/contracting' trailers that seemed to proliferate all of a sudden.

 

Last night I saw parked by a cottage an old boat trailer that had a box built on it. You guys that look after your stuff regardless of weights are being punished because people think garbage like that is road worthy to take up the 115 or 400 on a Fri' night, overloaded @ 120 kph.

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12 minutes ago, Poo Man said:

It all boils down to what type of person you are. If you want to be 100% legal and never worry, or if your ok knowing that your towing a few times a year and chances are high you won't be bothered. Personally I think they need to get rid of the rule where every trailer needs a sticker even if under 4500kg combined. Even better include sled/atv/boat in the recreation exemption.

Some of the sled/atv/boat trailers I have seen on the road simply shouldn't be on the road period. There isn't a regulation that requires trailers with combinations under 4500kg to be inspected unless you are referring to them needing inspection only if the truck already has an inspection sticker.

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