Wake up Ontario. This is how it's done.

[Big Pete]

On 2018-03-02 at 11:06 AM, SteveB said:

POO Man, government funding is alive and well. There is plenty of funds available IF you know where to look and how to apply for it. The application process can be gruelling and political but the rewards are there. The process to apply for funding has to come from the OFSC not the clubs or districts. Therefore you need some professional talent within the OFSC to gain access to these funds. Currently the OFSC has directional issues as well as the clubs, this is not a one sided problem. There are paid positions within the OFSC but without being privileged to job responsibilities it is hard to comment on responsibilities for who does what. At this time it does not appear there  is a person engaged in government relations within. This also holds true for district/club relations positions. If the OFSC does not have a person at the top with a clear and defined vision on direction for the industry, how to get there and what is needed to get there, then the whole organization is in trouble which will be filtering down to the clubs. Change starts at the OFSC level and the change required is a total restructure of the OFSC. This is evident by the way the current organization is managed. There needs to be accountability and responsibility attached to the OFSC paid positions. IMO 

SteveB, could you enlighten us as to sources of govt funding that are alive and well? The lobbyist portfolio was held by Mike C up until his departure a year or so ago. I thought he did a reasonable job representing the snowmobile interests in the Bill 100 debate. As I understand it now Paul S has the lobbyist accountabilities along with his insurance/risk management functions. But I would agree that the overal effort is haphazard and ineffectual at best. Case in point. One of the key planks in the OFSC strategy for reorganization was “Sustainable Funding” which was to focus on an increased val tag being paid to the OFSC. They have been chasing that dream for about 20+ years now and they are no farther along that path now. You would think that somebody might say it’s time to try something different. 

 

As to the the local level, I think the situation is far better than the provincial one. Many clubs have great relationships with the local town/municipal representatives which paves the way for dealing with issues like access to road allowances and other municipal properties. You might want to talk to the clubs that were involved with the OVRT or the KOC trail to see the level of local support.  I think local level politicians “get itl more than their provincial counterparts. They face the local business owner or permit buyer every day rather than hide in an office in Queens Park..

[SteveB]

43 minutes ago, Big Pete said:

SteveB, could you enlighten us as to sources of govt funding that are alive and well?

There is funds available through the Federal and Provincial governments tourism departments. Getting to the distribution of these funds is a land mine field and if approached in the wrong way will not get any organization to first base. The application process has to be a detailed business plan advocating the need for the funding. The platform could be built around the fact the each year OFSC is losing ridership to other markets (Michigan, Quebec, NB) at a rate of ????? The clubs would also need to get the local municipalities involved at their level as they would have a keen interest in seeing the local economy prosper. The bottom line is there is government funding available for tourism and the OFSC needs the right person that knows how to approach these government bodies in regards to achieving a positive response. The case for funding would also need to be a combined joint effort between the OFSC and the clubs.

[SteveB]

15 hours ago, skidooboy said:

steve, who do you think is better educated on when and what should be groomed... the club, and district with eyes, and boots on the ground on their trails, or a paid ofsc "manager" in Barrie, "thinking they know what is better for a district or club?" this isn't one size fits all. traffic, weather, snow depth, geography, all play into when, and how much you can groom. the geographic differences alone are mind boggling. close all trails, groom all trails, when, and for how long?

There is a formula in Quebec (don't ask me what it is) that they use to address trail grooming. It is based on two factors - amount of snow fall and or amount of trail use. Once one of these two factors are met they go out and groom - day or night. It is as simple as this on when to groom. 

[skidooboy]

and again... who is better to understand the needs of a trail, the people in the area, or the people in the big white castle, making the policy? Ski

[SteveB]

12 minutes ago, skidooboy said:

nd again... who is better to understand the needs of a trail, the people in the area, or the people in the big white castle, making the policy? Ski

Well I am not sure what you do not understand?  The club would need to be involved in this and drive the "grooming" program based on the tolerance of snow fall and trail use. Once this has been established all clubs would conform to this grooming model achieving trail consistency across all districts.

It has nothing to do with "big white castles" making policy, I am confused by this comment.

I trust this explains things in a clearer perspective for you!

[skidooboy]

On ‎3‎/‎2‎/‎2018 at 7:48 AM, SteveB said:

The first thing that needs to be done is fix the issues within the OFSC. It is a broken system where clubs dictate to the association. It is a classic case of the tail wagging the dog.

steveb... from your first post... now you you are re-positioning yourself to contradict yourself. so, which is it... clubs make the grooming decisions, or  the ofsc...

 

understand "my confusion" now? help me, help you. LOL!  Ski

[Big Pete]

On 2018-03-03 at 9:41 AM, SteveB said:

There is funds available through the Federal and Provincial governments tourism departments. Getting to the distribution of these funds is a land mine field and if approached in the wrong way will not get any organization to first base. The application process has to be a detailed business plan advocating the need for the funding. The platform could be built around the fact the each year OFSC is losing ridership to other markets (Michigan, Quebec, NB) at a rate of ????? The clubs would also need to get the local municipalities involved at their level as they would have a keen interest in seeing the local economy prosper. The bottom line is there is government funding available for tourism and the OFSC needs the right person that knows how to approach these government bodies in regards to achieving a positive response. The case for funding would also need to be a combined joint effort between the OFSC and the clubs.

SteveB, the OFSC and clubs already access govt funding through the the Ministry of Tourism via the annual TDF Grants. The last couple of years it has been $1 million per year. It was $1.5 million for a few years before that and has been as high as $3,0 million in my recollection. Those funds can only be used for trail work ( not equipment)  on designated tourism trails and the club needs to kick in 15% of the project. 

 

Given that we can hardly afford the 30km of trails we have now, building new does not seem logical but perhaps a concerted effort to improve some trails is necessary. I keep hearing about the tough terrrajn in some districts. This could be an opportunity to address that. But having said that the real priority for the last 3 years and the next few at least, is the groomer fleet replacement and there have been no grants or govt funds for that in a very long time. 

[Big Pete]

On 2018-03-02 at 7:48 AM, SteveB said:

The first thing that needs to be done is fix the issues within the OFSC. It is a broken system where clubs dictate to the association. It is a classic case of the tail wagging the dog. 

 

That’s only true if you see this organization as a top down centralized control head office type of organization. However it’s the clubs and all those pesky volunteers that make everything happen and have got 50 years. We seemed to be locked into this 1 size fits all, magic bullet solution being forced on everybody which nobody has proven to be more efficient rather than accepting the fact that there are numerous ways to get the job done in a manner acceptable to all riders and trusting local leadership to get the job done. So in your perspective the OFSC is not the dog, it’s the tail. 

[SteveB]

46 minutes ago, Big Pete said:

That’s only true if you see this organization as a top down centralized control head office type of organization.

I am not part of the OFSC or any club/district other than I pay my fees to use the trails. I do talk to the groomers and buy them lunch when I cross their paths thanking them for the job well done. The volunteers within each club goes unappreciated and unrecognized for their efforts to get the trails in riding condition as well as "begging" landowners for the right to use their property during the season. The "behind the scene efforts" to get this industry moving goes without saying very challenging. In order to keep the Ontario market a viable snowmobile industry it needs to have leadership and representation. I cannot explain in this forum at any length what the fix is in a condensed version. I am not even trying to indicate I have the "magic"  fix in my pocket. I am a retired business owner and understand that cooperation at all levels is required to get things done. At the present in Ontario there is no consistency in the trail conditions between districts hence it forces people like me to go to Quebec and enjoy their trails. I will be going for the 6th time next week this year alone to Quebec to ride. I spend on average $250 per day on food, fuel, accommodations and usually travel with a minimum of 4 friends each spending the same. I would love to spend this in Ontario but ...Most people  I talk to in the hotels etc. are from Ontario riding in Quebec. 

The Quebec trail pass is around $250.00 without their insurance package (I think it is around there i did not want to look it up). If funding is an issue start by raising the trail pass rates but make sure the trails are groomed. Funding and governance are a topic that needs direction from the top of the OFSC in order for the funds to be filtered down to the clubs. The OFSC needs to act and be responsible/accountable for the snowmobile industry and ALL districts. This cannot be done through individual clubs efforts. I believe in your assessment that the OFSC needs to be a "top down centralized control head office type of organization".  If you need riders keep the trials smooth and they will come, the alternative is they go elsewhere to ride. 

Sorry but I am way off topic here. 

[02Sled]

45 minutes ago, Big Pete said:

That’s only true if you see this organization as a top down centralized control head office type of organization. However it’s the clubs and all those pesky volunteers that make everything happen and have got 50 years. We seemed to be locked into this 1 size fits all, magic bullet solution being forced on everybody which nobody has proven to be more efficient rather than accepting the fact that there are numerous ways to get the job done in a manner acceptable to all riders and trusting local leadership to get the job done. So in your perspective the OFSC is not the dog, it’s the tail. 

Sometimes those pesky volunteers can be the problem. Often those with that 50 years you refer to. Everyone has heard the stories of the "old boys club" which is it seems more prevalent in some clubs than others. People say they want to volunteer and never hear from anyone in the club is also something we hear about. At times the new blood will if they get their foot in the door will feel discouraged or devalued by those pesky volunteers. I am not saying this is an all encompassing statement but it happens.

 

People by nature are resistant to change and prefer what they are used to. That is why you will hear from time to time.... that's the way we have done it for the past 25 years and it works just fine. The new blood sees an opportunity to do things better. It doesn't mean the old way doesn't work but there are always opportunities for improvement. He makes his suggestion and the old boys dismiss it. The new blood then feels that discouragement.

 

The same can be said for changes in process brought forward by the OFS in terms of acceptance. We don't need to, don't want to and won't change the way we do things.

 

Applying that to grooming you may see clubs grooming a trail multiple times mid week, mid day even though they haven't had the traffic or new snow to warrant it. Why, because that's what they have always done. Perhaps it's because a small group of well connected locals want pristine trails for their mid week ride. Who knows. The reality is that things must and will change over time. People need to work with those changes rather than fight tooth and nail about a changing ideology.

[SteveB]

1 hour ago, skidooboy said:

steveb... from your first post... now you you are re-positioning yourself to contradict yourself. so, which is it... clubs make the grooming decisions, or  the ofsc...

 

understand "my confusion" now? help me, help you. LOL!  Ski

I am surprised to see you are confused. You appear to be a very well informed and an educated person with a great depth of knowledge. Would you mind sharing your constructive thoughts on how to improve the Ontario snowmobiling industry? What changes would you like to make? You may have something positive to contribute and I am sure we would all like to hear it.

[skidooboy]

now you are just being obtuse.

 

my confusion, is your inability to stop flip flopping from "your views" of how the ofsc "should" be run. I wasn't suggesting I know how to fix the ofsc, you were the one complaining on how it is ran. then you flipped and flopped, and are now trying to turn things around to make me look bad for "my confusion", when I pointed out your posts were contradictory, which is solely based on your inability to communicate your point. do you have a point? and if so, can you be clear, and not flip from the clubs are wagging the dog, or the ofsc is wagging the clubs?

 

 

being you have ridden in Quebec, I am sure you have saw the signs on the trail... "if you have time to complain, you have time to help".  

 

Ski

[02Sled]

I've seen the same signs in Ontario as well. If you have time to complain you have time to help. There are some for whom that is most appropriate. I know of one who can be counted on to vilify the club for not having trails open within a couple of days of that first snowfall. He is oblivious to the swamps, mud and water that still hasn't frozen. He wants to know why the volunteers aren't doing their jobs.

 

 

[Viperules700]

17 hours ago, slomo said:

Exactly. This and the many partnerships that might be developed  - have laid this out to various marketing concerns who may be interested in the OFSC contract when the current contract is up for renewal.

When does 8 year contract expire? 

[SteveB]

5 hours ago, skidooboy said:

if you have time to complain, you have time to help".  

Well it seems this particular forum/link/thread has gone completely sideways and off topic. Some people are still confused on the topic and I cannot help that. Sorry for my lack of clarity on responding. 

 

This link was started on the ability of the Quebec snowmobile clubs getting $11K to support their industry and the OFSC seems to have an issue on getting government support. The Ontario government will and does support business and or organizations that can show the money they (government) invests is going to have a positive return and impact. There are government funding programs (Federal and Provincial) available to organizations like the OFSC. Securing these funds takes a strong business plan and approach to advocating the need for the funds in the first place. Quebec has done that. There is multiple reasons why the OFSC has not secured funds and or help from the Ministries. If there was not a reason, the OFSC would have financial support from the likes of Tourism Ontario and land issue support on crown land from the Natural Resources. The real question is why is there no government support of the OFSC??? There is a flaw in the OFSC system on their ability to to secure this support and relay the distribution of funds to each district. Why is (I think Sudbury district) recently announced they have no more funds to groom their trails when the season is only 3/4 of the way done??. There is an issue in the system (whether district or at the OFSC level) for this to happen. There just might be a confidence issue at stake here when it comes to managing money or simply the OFSC has not presented a supporting case  of need.

 

It appears that some people think I am complainingI. Not in the least, I would pay the same amount in trail fees in Ontario as in Quebec if that would help - raise the trail fees. In the mean time I will just go to Quebec and spend my money until the trails are rideable in Ontario or take my chances here. If anyone has a positive suggestion for the OFSC, start a new link and pass your thoughts along. Don't think for a minute the OFSC does not monitor this web site.  

 

[revrnd]

7 hours ago, 02Sled said:

I've seen the same signs in Ontario as well. If you have time to complain you have time to help. There are some for whom that is most appropriate. I know of one who can be counted on to vilify the club for not having trails open within a couple of days of that first snowfall. He is oblivious to the swamps, mud and water that still hasn't frozen. He wants to know why the volunteers aren't doing their jobs.

 

 

Saw this on a club's Faceplant page this season, "Club A has their railbed open why haven't you guys got your trails (typical Canadian Shield terrain) open yet?"

Some people haven't got a clue. They hear (fill in the blank) got a foot of snow on Tues' early in the season & figure the trails will be groomed to perfection on Fri' night.

[crispy]

 

If you really want to wake up people the biggest issue of today is criticism is not a political strategy of benefit. Critical thinking COMBINED with critically inspired maps for improving what someone is criticizing? Is ideal.

 

Thats the trouble with literally the entire world these days. Everyone has something to say, or should I say COMPLAIN about especially when they have no skin in the game its finger pointing, blame, victimization and down the negative turd pile the whole she bang goes.

 

If you can find something to complain about the only question you need to be asking is this; What can I do to improve this problem I have found worthy of criticism?

If you cant answer that? Keep learning and reading until you can answer that, and when you can? Apply it or communicate with others. If you cant find the answer? Maybe thats as good as its going to get, or maybe you need to find someone brighter than you to solve it and support them. The approach being taken by and large by so many these days is spiraling the world down a pit of no fun, and over regulation.

 

Take it easy, make the best of each day. Try focusing on good things to say, and listening to others. Surely this will help on all fronts. In my time of club support? We had a lot of fun. Isn't that why we are snowmobilers after all? 

[FROSTYNUTZ]

Sometimes, you can lead a horse to water, but it can be very hard, and frustrating, trying to make him drink, when he doesn,t want to .

Lots of folks have had good suggestions, and tried to help,. only to be shunned away, and neglected.

it,s only a matter of a short time, I,m guessing 5 years max, and the OFSC will be loosing 60-70 % of its aging volunteers, and then the crap will be hitting the fan, bigtime.

[zoso]

2 hours ago, crispy said:

 

If you really want to wake up people the biggest issue of today is criticism is not a political strategy of benefit. Critical thinking COMBINED with critically inspired maps for improving what someone is criticizing? Is ideal.

 

Thats the trouble with literally the entire world these days. Everyone has something to say, or should I say COMPLAIN about especially when they have no skin in the game its finger pointing, blame, victimization and down the negative turd pile the whole she bang goes.

 

If you can find something to complain about the only question you need to be asking is this; What can I do to improve this problem I have found worthy of criticism?

If you cant answer that? Keep learning and reading until you can answer that, and when you can? Apply it or communicate with others. If you cant find the answer? Maybe thats as good as its going to get, or maybe you need to find someone brighter than you to solve it and support them. The approach being taken by and large by so many these days is spiraling the world down a pit of no fun, and over regulation.

 

Take it easy, make the best of each day. Try focusing on good things to say, and listening to others. Surely this will help on all fronts. In my time of club support? We had a lot of fun. Isn't that why we are snowmobilers after all? 

When you have a user pay system you are always going to have to deal with complaints from those paying. Your post sounds as if permit buyers are not paying. Mind you, I agree they are not paying the true costs. However that is not their problem nor concern, there is no demand they volunteer, unlike a yacht for instance that may demand a certain number of hours you volunteer and annual dues. When volunteering is not part of the contract, advertising promises groomed trails, and all marketing shows nothing but perfection, people cannot be expected to not complain when they ride crap for 200 kms and have a bad experience. The OFSC markets groomed trails, not moguls, they advertise a connected network, not 5 km dirt road runs on open trails. They do suggest you volunteer, but not in the forefront, and now do not even share permit buyer emails so a club can solicit. Perhaps it is time to find out which sledders really want trails, and charge the proper amount of money to ride. The fact is, we will see a drastic drop off in permit sales next fall year due to low snow this winter. I do not think it was ever price that caused the drop of sales exclusively when we raised the permit price, I think it was a combination of factors that was never fully understood and the easy answer was drop the price. The price needs to reflect the real cost of running a first class system with consistent grooming that actually provides what is sold. Advertise to a guy he can buy a trail pass and ride groomed trails, then groom once per week and the days he rides are the sixth day after grooming, of course he complains. Tell him what does he expect for 190 bucks and that if he has time to complain he has time to help is asinine. We advertised groomed trails, we set the price, we failed to provide what we advertised and his help will not put an operator and fuel in a groomer. so basically, a smart person would understand your answer is rude, condenscending, and a turn off. You cannot bully people into volunteering, and you should not advertise what you cannot provide. 

[Blake G]

Crispy, thank you for sharing your thoughts.

 

Zoso, I agree with your points about permit pricing.

[02Sled]

3 hours ago, zoso said:

When you have a user pay system you are always going to have to deal with complaints from those paying. Your post sounds as if permit buyers are not paying. Mind you, I agree they are not paying the true costs. However that is not their problem nor concern, there is no demand they volunteer, unlike a yacht for instance that may demand a certain number of hours you volunteer and annual dues. When volunteering is not part of the contract, advertising promises groomed trails, and all marketing shows nothing but perfection, people cannot be expected to not complain when they ride crap for 200 kms and have a bad experience. The OFSC markets groomed trails, not moguls, they advertise a connected network, not 5 km dirt road runs on open trails. They do suggest you volunteer, but not in the forefront, and now do not even share permit buyer emails so a club can solicit. Perhaps it is time to find out which sledders really want trails, and charge the proper amount of money to ride. The fact is, we will see a drastic drop off in permit sales next fall year due to low snow this winter. I do not think it was ever price that caused the drop of sales exclusively when we raised the permit price, I think it was a combination of factors that was never fully understood and the easy answer was drop the price. The price needs to reflect the real cost of running a first class system with consistent grooming that actually provides what is sold. Advertise to a guy he can buy a trail pass and ride groomed trails, then groom once per week and the days he rides are the sixth day after grooming, of course he complains. Tell him what does he expect for 190 bucks and that if he has time to complain he has time to help is asinine. We advertised groomed trails, we set the price, we failed to provide what we advertised and his help will not put an operator and fuel in a groomer. so basically, a smart person would understand your answer is rude, condenscending, and a turn off. You cannot bully people into volunteering, and you should not advertise what you cannot provide. 

Actually the email addresses of those that indicate they are willing to be contacted when they are buying their trail permits are available to the club. Each year we request the information from the district office and they provide us full detail of those who have bought permits and designated our club. We then use that information to reach out to those people in the fall requesting assistance for trail prep and other things they may assist with. We send club updates throughout the season and we have just sent out a notice of our upcoming club AGM.

 

We get our core group of volunteers that consistently help out and from time to time add new volunteers to the pool. Some are able to help only from time to time while others join that group of core volunteers you know will be there almost every time.

 

If your club isn't taking advantage of that information to reach out to their members they are missing an opportunity.

[Wildbill]

11 minutes ago, 02Sled said:

Actually the email addresses of those that indicate they are willing to be contacted when they are buying their trail permits are available to the club. Each year we request the information from the district office and they provide us full detail of those who have bought permits and designated our club. We then use that information to reach out to those people in the fall requesting assistance for trail prep and other things they may assist with. We send club updates throughout the season and we have just sent out a notice of our upcoming club AGM.

 

We get our core group of volunteers that consistently help out and from time to time add new volunteers to the pool. Some are able to help only from time to time while others join that group of core volunteers you know will be there almost every time.

 

If your club isn't taking advantage of that information to reach out to their members they are missing an opportunity.

The addresses were very late getting to us this year with the OFSC I.T. issues however we put 4 of the contacts to work we did contact all of them 

[Viperules700]

7 minutes ago, Wildbill said:

The addresses were very late getting to us this year with the OFSC I.T. issues however we put 4 of the contacts to work we did contact all of them 

Good to know they are using that information, finally. 

[Wildbill]

6 minutes ago, Viperules700 said:

Good to know they are using that information, finally. 

we always got the information and used it 

[bbakernbay]

1 hour ago, Wildbill said:

we always got the information and used it 

Exactly, I do a MailChimp mailing at least once a year and always surprised by so few Unsubscribes.

 

I never wait for the list to be supplied, I just keep merging with MailChimp.

 

With the new system over last 5 years or thereabouts the Choose Your Club selection isn’t as financially significant as previously but still good PR.