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Disappointing to read this.


ZR SLEDHEAD

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45 minutes ago, Bigfish said:

The logbooks are submitted to the district, and  payment is sent to the club for the hours groomed.

If there is a problem with the club being paid, they (the club) should be discussing  it with their district,

Can you please explain to me the role of the district plays verses the role of the club? Why does a club need a district? Why does the club not deal with the OFSC directly? 

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1 hour ago, 02Sled said:

The fuel aspect doesn't seem to make sense. From what you posted they are suggesting that fuel consumption in the cold days was almost doubled. The only thing I can see accounting for the added fuel consumption to that level is they simply kept the groomer idling all the time rather that stop and start it.

Their groomer(s) are kept in a shed.

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19 minutes ago, SteveB said:

Can you please explain to me the role of the district plays verses the role of the club? Why does a club need a district? Why does the club not deal with the OFSC directly? 

Clubs deal with the District office for their District. The District offices deal with the OFSC directly. Like many businesses and governments, the OFSC would rather have direct dealings with approx. 16 organizations rather than approx. 200.

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I think better communication from the ofsc on how the system works would help the average permit holder understand better.

I sat in a restaurant in Cochrane over the weekend listening to two guys from different groups talking about the current state of grooming and how things are done and neither one of them had a clue. As a volunteer groomer operator it was very difficult to listen to.

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17 minutes ago, PISTON LAKE CRUISER said:

Their groomer(s) are kept in a shed.

So how does the fuel consumption almost double. Doesn't make sense unless the groomers were out on the trails almost double the amount of time.

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30 minutes ago, 02Sled said:

So how does the fuel consumption almost double. Doesn't make sense unless the groomers were out on the trails almost double the amount of time.

Just stated what he told us. Didn't ask for further explanation so will not guess at the reason.

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47 minutes ago, PISTON LAKE CRUISER said:

Clubs deal with the District office for their District. The District offices deal with the OFSC directly. Like many businesses and governments, the OFSC would rather have direct dealings with approx. 16 organizations rather than approx. 200.

 

1 hour ago, SteveB said:

Can you please explain to me the role of the district plays verses the role of the club? Why does a club need a district? Why does the club not deal with the OFSC directly? 

Piston Lake Cruiser answered your question

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3 hours ago, PISTON LAKE CRUISER said:

When are you going?

Plan is to head up next weekend and ride the week after march break. If I can find accomdation may head up later next week. 

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1 hour ago, PISTON LAKE CRUISER said:

Clubs deal with the District office for their District. The District offices deal with the OFSC directly. Like many businesses and governments, the OFSC would rather have direct dealings with approx. 16 organizations rather than approx. 200.

So are you saying that there are 16 districts that report to the OFSC? Within the 16 districts there are over 200 clubs? So does the OFSC treat each "district" as a profit centre or "break even centre" and make them accountable for the club spending? I am retired after running a successful business for over 40 years and controlled corporate expenses as it was critical to making or losing money. The OFSC is a member driven business accountable to the trail pass holders and should be run as such. With trail passes being  the only source of revenue (maybe some advertising is filtered in there along the way and possible government funding) the OFSC  has to control the expenses in order to satisfy the membership for its undertaking of providing groomed trails. How does the OFSC "police" the expenditures to the districts? There has to be a reporting system of expenses to the OFSC. What i am understanding here is the OFSC controls the bank of funds but does not have accountable control of the expenditures. With 16 districts managing 200 plus clubs this appears to me that there is a huge opportunity mismanagement of funds considering the districts and clubs are for the most part volunteer based. No one seems to be accountable to the OFSC (from a paid career perspective) to manage the OFSC funds being directed to the districts/clubs. It is hard to discipline a volunteer for mismanagement of funds. How does the OFSC know if the people they are directing the funds to within the district have the ability to manage the funds in the fist place? There certainly must be some vetting process in place. Can this model of management not be streamlined to a degree as it appears there is some fragmentation of accountability and responsibility. Is there no other paid positions outside of the OFSC other than a groomer?

 

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16 minutes ago, SteveB said:

So are you saying that there are 16 districts that report to the OFSC? Within the 16 districts there are over 200 clubs? So does the OFSC treat each "district" as a profit centre or "break even centre" and make them accountable for the club spending? I am retired after running a successful business for over 40 years and controlled corporate expenses as it was critical to making or losing money. The OFSC is a member driven business accountable to the trail pass holders and should be run as such. With trail passes being  the only source of revenue (maybe some advertising is filtered in there along the way and possible government funding) the OFSC  has to control the expenses in order to satisfy the membership for its undertaking of providing groomed trails. How does the OFSC "police" the expenditures to the districts? There has to be a reporting system of expenses to the OFSC. What i am understanding here is the OFSC controls the bank of funds but does not have accountable control of the expenditures. With 16 districts managing 200 plus clubs this appears to me that there is a huge opportunity mismanagement of funds considering the districts and clubs are for the most part volunteer based. No one seems to be accountable to the OFSC (from a paid career perspective) to manage the OFSC funds being directed to the districts/clubs. It is hard to discipline a volunteer for mismanagement of funds. How does the OFSC know if the people they are directing the funds to within the district have the ability to manage the funds in the fist place? There certainly must be some vetting process in place. Can this model of management not be streamlined to a degree as it appears there is some fragmentation of accountability and responsibility. Is there no other paid positions outside of the OFSC other than a groomer?

 

Steve, give us a break on your OFSC 101 theories.

 

It certainly appears you have zero experience with your local Club or OFSC operations and I suggest getting involved in your area Club and learning how a Club, District and Head Office are organized.

 

There has been a fairly radical reorganization of how the OFSC works over the last 5 years and it has been a difficult transition but headway is being made.

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1 hour ago, bbakernbay said:

Steve, give us a break on your OFSC 101 theories.

No need to get frustrated with the questions. I am not sure why you would say my questions are theories??? They are simple questions of understanding that majority of the trail pass buyers don't know. If you don't share the knowledge you cannot expect to get help. Volunteers like to know where they are going to fit in and I am trying to find that slot - if there is one. You don't have to like the questions or even respond but you did and have basically told me not to ask questions I know nothing about. Why would you do that? Do you not think the OFSC could use some help? The OFSC web site offers little direction. For that matter there is not a discussion forum on the OFSC site to ask questions or look for answers. I am trying to learn whether it would be worth my time to get involved with the OFSC. I have government lobbyist experience that has raised millions of dollars for companies in the form of loans or grants, 40 years of successful business experience and time now that I am retired. If I cannot get help in understanding basic operation of the OFSC on this site, why would I want  to apply my services in real time? The "radical" reorganization with headway being made has lead a club to saying they are out of money to groom anymore this year. I don't need a job but have some depth and I think could help providing there is some open minded people willing to listen. Just saying! 

Here is another nagging question for you: Who would I approach within the OFSC about providing the my services of writing for a business plan on the OFSC behalf to apply for a government grant or interest free loan? Again the OFSC web site does not list its directors or employees with contact information. If the simple questions I asked above are an issue for you (assuming you are a volunteer) then they are  going to be a terrible issue for the paid people of the OFSC. Applying for successful government sponsorship is contingent on answering tough questions. By your comment It appears there is some substance to what I hear and read about people saying this is an "old boys network" that is resistant to change. 

 

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6 hours ago, PISTON LAKE CRUISER said:

Do the clubs in Northern Ontario receive more $ per grooming hour to help cover the cost of  items like the extra fuel used during extreme cold periods? A gentleman volunteering at the Moonbeam clubhouse told me on Feb.24th that they were getting the fuel tank for the groomers refilled every 7-9 days during the extreme cold they had for a number of weeks before we were there. He said that in "normal" weather they get it refilled every 14 days. 

The volume of traffic that the clubs from Kirkland Lake north are dealing with this year is far higher in February than what I have seen there on any of our past trips. Even the Moose Motel in SRF was apparently full this past weekend according to an Arctic Riders facebook post. It appears from what I have read that the cost of the extra grooming required since the first of February in some areas, to deal effectively with this volume will not result in those clubs getting more money until next year when it will be slightly reflected in their 4 year average. I stand to be corrected on that thought.

As I remember, one of the primary selling points of MOTS was to deal with issues like we are seeing this year where money would get moved from where it isn't being used for grooming to where more/extra grooming was being done. Is it working as advertised and if so is it working as quickly as required?

I would think that the Barrie office staff should be able to use the red on their new map to quickly determine which districts have extra money available and reduce payments (or claw back part of past payments) to get the dollars quickly moved to where they are needed. What are the District offices doing to help correct the shortfalls in the affected areas?

Also, I get the impression that there are some on this forum implying that if a club needs more funds to get through this busy season then those managing said clubs must be the funds they have received. Personally, I'm going to go on believing that the vast majority of those VOLUNTEERS are just doing the best they can with what they have to work with.

Rant over.

PLC, there is no different rate for northern clubs. Everybody gets $58.24 per hour of grooming. If the reason for double the fuel consumption is not double the grooming hours then something is amiss. Are they experiencing “inventory shrinkage”. Might want to make sure the pumps are locked and you know who has the keys. 

 

MOTS does not really deal with the funding formula but deals with the organizational structure and the relationship between club, district and OFSC. It was Framework For Change (FFC) that replaced the old Matrix funding formula with the current one. Is it working? My answer is a qualified yes. If you have no snow and don’t groom you don’t get paid. If you have snow and you groom you do get paid (eventually). The biggest issue to me is a timing issue. Because the model uses current season actuals it becomes more difficult to make interim payments. The way it works for each payment is the OFSC makes annual forecasts for the variable data inputs (permit sales, trails, grooming hours). Some of these are easier to do than others. At the scheduled payment date you get a cumulative percentage of your annual payment. Nov is 30%, Dec is 45%, Jan is 60%, Feb is 70% and the final reconciliation in March is 100%. 

 

Now with the increased traffic up north north which did not happen until early/mid Feb, I suspect the forecasted annual grooming hours does not accurately reflect  the current situation. Yes it will all get sorted in at the end of March but that does not get you diesel fuel today. So that’s why I say it is primarily a timing issue. Easy solution would be for the District Gov to request a recalculation based on today’s data and ask for a special advance. Maybe this has happened. I don’t know. 

 

And yes I would agree, the vast majority of volunteers are doing the best they can with what they have. 

 

 

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3 hours ago, -crz- said:

I think better communication from the ofsc on how the system works would help the average permit holder understand better.

I sat in a restaurant in Cochrane over the weekend listening to two guys from different groups talking about the current state of grooming and how things are done and neither one of them had a clue. As a volunteer groomer operator it was very difficult to listen to.

Crz, I think that accountability belongs with the club and permit buyer. Of course that would mean that joe permit buyer might have to go to a meeting and ask some questions and get informed. And the club needs to recognize that joe permit buyer is our life blood and we need to take reasonable steps to endure they se informed correctly. 

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1 hour ago, SteveB said:

No need to get frustrated with the questions. I am not sure why you would say my questions are theories??? They are simple questions of understanding that majority of the trail pass buyers don't know. If you don't share the knowledge you cannot expect to get help. Volunteers like to know where they are going to fit in and I am trying to find that slot - if there is one. You don't have to like the questions or even respond but you did and have basically told me not to ask questions I know nothing about. Why would you do that? Do you not think the OFSC could use some help? The OFSC web site offers little direction. For that matter there is not a discussion forum on the OFSC site to ask questions or look for answers. I am trying to learn whether it would be worth my time to get involved with the OFSC. I have government lobbyist experience that has raised millions of dollars for companies in the form of loans or grants, 40 years of successful business experience and time now that I am retired. If I cannot get help in understanding basic operation of the OFSC on this site, why would I want  to apply my services in real time? The "radical" reorganization with headway being made has lead a club to saying they are out of money to groom anymore this year. I don't need a job but have some depth and I think could help providing there is some open minded people willing to listen. Just saying! 

Here is another nagging question for you: Who would I approach within the OFSC about providing the my services of writing for a business plan on the OFSC behalf to apply for a government grant or interest free loan? Again the OFSC web site does not list its directors or employees with contact information. If the simple questions I asked above are an issue for you (assuming you are a volunteer) then they are  going to be a terrible issue for the paid people of the OFSC. Applying for successful government sponsorship is contingent on answering tough questions. By your comment It appears there is some substance to what I hear and read about people saying this is an "old boys network" that is resistant to change. 

 

The challenge with providing a direct line of communication from the approximately 35,000 +  permit buyer to the small group of people at the OFSC office in Barrie is that they would never get anything done. They would spend their entire day answering phone calls and emails. Liken it to the corporate environment. Try and find a phone number for their executive level or even an email. Good luck with that.

 

You can find the names of the OFSC leadership online and in most cases a bio of the individual. The district offices that I am familiar typically have one, maybe two paid employees with some being perhaps full time and others part time. The district offices that I know of have phone numbers and emails available.

 

District 7 for example http://www.msrsnowtrails.com/Contact-Us/

 

As was suggested the best avenue to start getting the answers to your questions is through your individual club. They are the volunteers that work within the system and send representatives to the OFSC Annual General Meeting where each club gets 2 votes on the direction the OFSC operates under. They are the ones who are best equipped to answer your questions or get answers for you. There are district meetings held regularly where each club in the district has the opportunity to attend be represented and vote on decisions that are in the scope of the district responsibility.

 

We have an AGM for our club. We send an invitation to well over 600 individual emails. Typical attendance at the AGM is quite low. They tend to be the same people that we see as regular volunteers throughout the year.

 

What is your local club. Perhaps we can help you get in touch with someone from that club executive. They would likely welcome your assistance and help you to understand the structure better.

 

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2 hours ago, SteveB said:

No need to get frustrated with the questions. I am not sure why you would say my questions are theories??? They are simple questions of understanding that majority of the trail pass buyers don't know. If you don't share the knowledge you cannot expect to get help. Volunteers like to know where they are going to fit in and I am trying to find that slot - if there is one. You don't have to like the questions or even respond but you did and have basically told me not to ask questions I know nothing about. Why would you do that? Do you not think the OFSC could use some help? The OFSC web site offers little direction. For that matter there is not a discussion forum on the OFSC site to ask questions or look for answers. I am trying to learn whether it would be worth my time to get involved with the OFSC. I have government lobbyist experience that has raised millions of dollars for companies in the form of loans or grants, 40 years of successful business experience and time now that I am retired. If I cannot get help in understanding basic operation of the OFSC on this site, why would I want  to apply my services in real time? The "radical" reorganization with headway being made has lead a club to saying they are out of money to groom anymore this year. I don't need a job but have some depth and I think could help providing there is some open minded people willing to listen. Just saying! 

Here is another nagging question for you: Who would I approach within the OFSC about providing the my services of writing for a business plan on the OFSC behalf to apply for a government grant or interest free loan? Again the OFSC web site does not list its directors or employees with contact information. If the simple questions I asked above are an issue for you (assuming you are a volunteer) then they are  going to be a terrible issue for the paid people of the OFSC. Applying for successful government sponsorship is contingent on answering tough questions. By your comment It appears there is some substance to what I hear and read about people saying this is an "old boys network" that is resistant to change. 

 

Steve, these are all good questions, however your not going to get accurate answers to your questions on a snowmobile public forum.

I see you are in Orangeville in District 4, I suggest you contact the Orangeville Snowmobile Club and speak to the president or treasurer. I'm sure they will be able to point you in the right direction.

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9 hours ago, 02Sled said:

The fuel aspect doesn't seem to make sense. From what you posted they are suggesting that fuel consumption in the cold days was almost doubled. The only thing I can see accounting for the added fuel consumption to that level is they simply kept the groomer idling all the time rather that stop and start it.

Well O2. There are very long and complex answers to the fuel consumption question. Correct answers depend on what diesels are being used. Tier 1, tier 2, tier 3, or tier 4 diesels all have different mechanical, electronic and electro- mechanical systems in place not to mention the methods of exhaust treatments. Fuel economy in any engine is not a subject for a forum or thread such as this. There are many hours of lecturing on the effects of all systems. I don't have a problem with the groomers using whatever for fuel amounts as long as all the designated fuel is actually getting in the groomer fuel tanks and they are being used on our trails.

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10 hours ago, 02Sled said:

The fuel aspect doesn't seem to make sense. From what you posted they are suggesting that fuel consumption in the cold days was almost doubled. The only thing I can see accounting for the added fuel consumption to that level is they simply kept the groomer idling all the time rather that stop and start it.

Every vehicle I've owned or operated uses more fuel in colder temperatures, not twice as much but from 30% to 60% more than summer usage.

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16 hours ago, Bigfish said:

Steve, these are all good questions, however your not going to get accurate answers to your questions on a snowmobile public forum.

I see you are in Orangeville in District 4, I suggest you contact the Orangeville Snowmobile Club and speak to the president or treasurer. I'm sure they will be able to point you in the right direction.

I have reached out to the snowmobilers on this public forum and have followed a list of issues within this sport in Ontario. The one forum that caught my attention was the one where Quebec just received $11mil for the industry. I reached out and said there is money in Ontario as well if you know where to look and how to apply. I was surprised that I could not be directed to an OFSC person to bring this to their attention. People said go to the district level with my ideas. So here is an opportunity for you made available at this time. The Ontario Sport & Recreation Communities (OSRCF) has a grant that supports a vision of getting and keeping Ontarians active in community sport, recreation & physical activity. Here is the link to the application: http://www.grants.gov.on.ca/GrantsPortal/en/OntarioGrants/GrantOpportunities/PRDR006918

Getting to these funds is all about the way the application is written and how you are going to allocate the funds use. Some people will look at this and say "we cannot qualify" but this is far from the truth. Think about how you want to introduce new people to the sport and what you need the funds for. Attracting a new person to the sport not only helps keep them fit but generates X amount of revenue for the province in spending. It takes a bit of creative thinking but is very doable. Please advise if I could be of further assistance, Steve

PS: as suggested by a reader, I did send this to the Orangeville club but really think the OFSC needs to apply.

 
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Lots of clubs are aware of opportunities to apply for funding. The paperwork can be onerous. Our district office makes us aware of the opportunities and will assist with the completion of the paperwork if needed. Often these initiatives come with strings attached. You must contribute a specific amount of money that your club simply may not have or the funds may be available for a very specific purpose only.

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On Sat' when we rode to Matheson, you could see where the groomer had turned around on TOP A just north of Matheson @ the 1st ice crossing. Saw a Golden Corridor billboard in the vicinity. Sun' as we drove south on 11 TOP A looked good @ the road crossings.

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3 hours ago, 02Sled said:

Lots of clubs are aware of opportunities to apply for funding. The paperwork can be onerous.

Well here is a suggestion for those how can't seem to get through the application process successfully, hire a firm to do this for you. They will not charge you anything to do the research or submit the application on your behalf. They do however take 10-15% of the grant or loan that has been made available upon successful completion of the application. 

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2 hours ago, SteveB said:

Well here is a suggestion for those how can't seem to get through the application process successfully, hire a firm to do this for you. They will not charge you anything to do the research or submit the application on your behalf. They do however take 10-15% of the grant or loan that has been made available upon successful completion of the application. 

Do you think that Quebec hired a firm in order for them to receive $11 million in government funding?  Not likely.  Comparing Ontario and Quebec is not a fair comparison, they definitely do not play by the same rules.  Ontario has become a generation of complete pansies, where winter is tolerated and endured, and organized snowmobiling is view as a redneck backwoods activity.  Look at the uphill battle that many clubs/districts have with municipal governments.  Quebec has a very different mindset when it comes to motorized activities and tourism, we've elected socialist governments here in Ontario and immigrated so many people here, that will never change.  Ontario also has different insurance laws that dictate what accident benefits, liability and the amount that can be sued for, and those laws are not going to be changed for organized snowmobiling. 

 

The Ontario that once embraced winter, snowmobiling, and motorized activities is gone, and its not the fault of the OFSC. 

 

If you truly believe that Queens Park cares whatsoever about organized snowmobiling, you really do need to get to a club meeting and get involved to see what they are up against. 

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3 hours ago, SteveB said:

Well here is a suggestion for those how can't seem to get through the application process successfully, hire a firm to do this for you. They will not charge you anything to do the research or submit the application on your behalf. They do however take 10-15% of the grant or loan that has been made available upon successful completion of the application. 

Steve, how is your success rate accessing Federal Government funds?  

 

Quebec snowmobiling has been granted millions of $$$ over the years for trails and groomers and Ontario and the other provinces are continually left out of this political largesse.  Very, very unfair but of course everyone know Quebec receives special treatment.

 

The OFSC has senior people whose role it is to lobby the senior levels of government for funding but as has been pointed out previously the Tourism Development Fund (TDF) has shrunk from 3 million a year to 1 million a year and only can be used on ‘tourism’ trails.  This has been an excellent program but 1 million really doesn’t go that far.  

 

Also as pointed out previously, cost sharing is mandated and the percentages are such that individual Clubs are unable to do this on their own.  Generally, the OFSC, District and Club all need to share in the funding.  With all $$ being now administered at the District level, many Clubs do not have sufficient $$ to participate now.

 

Our local ATV Club were just successful in getting funding for a Trails Manager so if you can qualify there is $$$ Available but history has shown that grants for snowmobiling funding in Ontario is very difficult to access.

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This was lifted off the Tourism. Cultural, Sport web site when it comes to funding amount. Like the OFSC and districts there are 13 regions within this sector. I know people say "I have tried but got know where with the government" and I understand that. The alternative is to hire a firm to do this for you and pay them based on performance. If it cost you 15% so be it as these firms spend a lot of time preparing the application for approval. Many international companies do not try to write the business plans for government funding because of the time involved and expertise that is needed to get the application correct for consideration. The likes of Tim Hortons, Nestle, Dairy Farmers of Ontario, Coke all pay outside services to attract government funding. As you can see $38K was allocated in the 2017-18 year to support tourism. Someone with the OFSC would need to sign a contract of performance for an outside firm to act on behalf of the OFSC.

I am retired and do not need a job as stated earlier. But i will help to direct those interested in trying to access these funds. This really should not be done on a public forum but I do not know who to approach at the OFSC level. I really think this type of funding has to start with the OFSC. There is common ground with 13 tourism regions and the blend of 16?? snowmobile districts. You need the OFSC to pull this together as a team with tourism Ontario. It is political posturing. and will take time to build the relationships.  Anyway thats all I can do from here at this time. I hope it helps.

Funding

How much funding is the province providing to the tourism regions?

The Ontario government is supporting the tourism regions with $38 million in annual funding in 2017-18.

How will the funding for each region be used?

Tourism partners will use this funding to enhance destination marketing and management. This will help tourism in each region continue to grow and support local jobs and businesses.

Who decides how these funds are used?

The Regional Tourism Organizations (removed apostrophe) are independent, not-for-profit organizations governed by the Board of Directors. The board is responsible for developing annual business plans and determining how to use the region's funding. The business plans are reviewed by the ministry and funding is provided in accordance with the transfer-payment agreement requirements.

How does the regional tourism approach affect municipal support for tourism?

Tourism is an important economic driver in communities across the province, and the ministry encourages municipalities to continue supporting tourism as part of their communities' economic growth strategies.

It is important for municipalities to work with their Regional Tourism Organization to further local tourism growth and economic success.

 

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